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Vaping over 400*

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by DogDad, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. DogDad

    DogDad Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Isn't there a lot of good medicine to be had above 400?

    Other than couch lock, why wouldn't I want to vape all the way up to near combustion?
  2. paytonpenn

    paytonpenn Level 30 Nature/Healer

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    Its not that there isn't you just have already extracted most of the non sedative effects under 400
    http://vaporpedia.com/wiki/Vaporizing_Effects_by_Temperature

    EDIT:
    I dont think your mouth wants that taste though, :puke: is how I always feel after I finished already vaped bowl.

    But I am not saying that you shouldn't go over 400, I have been revaping my abv all week until its black. Definitely feel the same effects after couple of stems, I don't really get the "couch lock", but maybe I just don't vape enough.

    It sounds like you really want to go higher than what the NO2 offers, what color does your abv end off at? I'm lucky my UD doesn't always end it off black.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  3. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    Location:
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    i find a more analgesic effect above 420°F. i've been using the Bowflex a lot more since June and the soreness/pain disappears.
  4. chimpybits

    chimpybits Well-Known Member

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    I understood (from info on these forums) that some of the nasties (benzene, CO, tar ?) begin being produced above 400°F and increasingly as the temp increases. So, if you're vaping to minimize these, you would avoid higher temps. If you're not so bothered and want the more sedating and analgesic effects, then higher temps are recommended.
    grokit and lwien like this.
  5. DogDad

    DogDad Well-Known Member

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    I can't wait to see what's there actually. Vaping has done great things to improve my overall health. Since vaping, I just feel stronger, overall better, healthier. It's like a vitamin I take every morning.

    I never thought of vaping as beneficial other than maybe for some dreaded disease and even then it "might" work at best. I got into vaping for the lack of smell and not breathing smoke anymore.

    I had no idea that it would have such a positive effect on my overall health. I wasn't expecting what it's done.

    Being uninformed is not remarkable, but what is remarkable to me at least is the difference from combustion.

    I've been combusting since 1967 most everyday. That's a hell of a long time and plenty of time to recognize changes.

    There were no changes/health benefits combusting that I could ever tell, and why this vaping thing has me in shock and awe.

    I can definitely tell the difference in how my body feels vaping vs combusting and vaping is the clear winner. I'm not talking about the high, I'm talking about how much healthier I feel and not just in the lungs.

    I'm not a sick person anyway. Most would consider me in shape. I eat pretty well, walk 2-4 miles a day, take vitamins and supplements religiously. I have a health coach. I'm all about being healthier.

    I'm able to tell when I eat something bad for me. Sometimes, I see it in my skin and other times I can tell in my body. If I eat something full of sugar or caffeine, I notice it.

    I say all that to give some background on what I'm about to say next. I'm pretty well in tuned with what's going on in my body.

    It's clear what's happening to me is good, but the "why" is the mystery and the reason I posted this question.

    Am I seeing these effects because vaping is accessing healthful properties of the plant that were not being delivered through combustion?

    OR

    Is vaping allowing for greater absorption of the same exact chemicals?

    You might ask why would that matter and what does that have to do with this post?

    Well, if vaping creates , offers, delivers a higher rate of "absorption", then over 400 you would be absorbing more benzene, toluene and all those other nasties we all should avoid.

    You can certainly make the case that vaping under 400 is healthier than combusting. I'm not sure if I could make the case that vaping over 400 is better IF you are absorbing more poison.

    If it's the same, then it hasn't killed me in 40 years then it's not likely to kill me next week.

    The point is, somewhere between 400* and 500* I've read I will receive these.

    Antioxidant
    Antimutagenic
    Antiviral
    Antineoplastic
    AChE inhibitor
    Antipyretic
    Analgesic
    Euphoriant
    Antiinflammatory
    Antibiotic
    Antifungal
    Antimalarial

    I think I want those, but to receive them I also have to receive:

    Benzene at 392
    Naphthalene at 424
    Carbon monoxide at 456
    Sedative at 422
  6. max

    max This space available Staff Member

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    The toxins you get with higher temps are indeed a trade off for the analgesic and sedative compounds that release above 400. They don't accumulate in your body though, like heavy metals would, and even high temp vaping is still much healthier than smoking, so IMO it's no big deal if you like the higher temp effects.
  7. DogDad

    DogDad Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Thank you Max. I feel better about it now.

    I'm really interested in the pain relief above 400 along with feeding my body the benefits found there. I don't find much/any relief at 400, so I'm interested to see what happens with my minor aches and pains.

    Up until now, I haven't had a vape that would go over 400 but that changes later today when I pick up my Extreme Q.

    It's going to be an interesting weekend.
  8. Deadhead101

    Deadhead101 I am the Vapor King--I can do anything

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    Theoretically, how high can you boost temps until stuff starts to combust?

    I don't care because of practical applications; I'm just curious about the range of effects vaping can provide, especially around 400-500F range.
  9. hoptimum

    hoptimum Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    733
    455f or so
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  10. Enchantre

    Enchantre A short, pithy statement

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    Great discussion!

    Yes, I believe the herb is giving you greater benefits, now that the goodies aren't being destroyed by fire, instead being extracted more gently.

    You might consider moving up to a log vape at some point. You don't have to go higher temp to get deeper/broader extraction. Going from conduction to mostly convection makes a noticeable difference, at the same approximate temperature. At least, it did for me. :)

    It is my understanding that you are, indeed, getting everything the plant offers, though the temperature will slant the ratios within that spectrum.
    Don't discount the benefits of using your ABV, as well. Topically, it works great in an oil (I prefer coconut), and if you can handle the taste, you can eat it too. You will reap some bennies from those higher-temp factors, and have it in your system through a different route, which also changes some of the experience, and the duration.
  11. DogDad

    DogDad Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Yes, I was curious too because according to this --> http://www.weedist.com/2012/07/tailoring-high-compounds-in-cannabis-properties-boiling-points/ there are health benefits up to 482.

    Last night I hung out between 450 and 500 just to see what's there. I was ooey gooey, fucked me too-ee and it took my last gasp to make it from the chair to the bed. I wasn't couch locked, I was couch implanted.

    It wasn't pleasant at the end, although some of the same good feelings came over me at 500 as 400. Just way more intense.

    More testing has to be done, but if "first night" was any indication, I won't be hanging out at these temps during the day unless I want to turn day into night.

    I would like to try topicals Enchantre, which coconut oil recipe do you find works the best?

    I can't speak to convection vs. conduction but what I can say is that last night I felt cooked to a crisp.
    Enchantre likes this.
  12. mystikalghost

    mystikalghost Active Member

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  13. DogDad

    DogDad Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    The Dog House
    Or 901, 902.

    One thing I failed to mention. Last night I felt no pain where I normally feel pain, but that may have been because I was too distracted trying to keep my eye lids apart.

    But this morning, I notice I don't hurt where I hurt before I vaped at these mega high temps. If the pain relief rolled over and has lasted overnight and into this morning it would be a good thing of course.

    The downside is, I'm moving at a snails pace this morning, rather than my usual self who is normally wired and ready to go. I'm still droopy eyed 7 hours later and I'm usually not droopy eyed 7 hours later if I stay under 400.

    One thing does seem clear. Vaping over 400 is a different experience than under, and both are different than combustion.

    UPdate to this morning: I vaped at 356 and that didn't do much. At 377 I came alive, went for my miles and wasn't in any pain.

    Looks like the key for me, is keeping the right amount in my system to feel good and be out of pain, but not enough to keep me from functioning. Unfortunately, it appears they are on opposite ranges of the heat spectrum.

    I need the meds at <400 AND >400. The under 400 I can vape, the over 400, I will have to find another way to get these in my system. The novice weedist in me thinks edibles at night might be a good way.

    On a side note: I have much more redness in my face today than yesterday. I give it a 50/50 chance of being due to the vaping. I also put on a new face cream yesterday and that may account for it, but I also absorbed more toxins when I vaped at higher temps. Whichever it is, it is NOT good.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
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  14. vorrange

    vorrange Well-Known Member

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    2,232
    Dogdad, vaping too close to bed time is not good because it interferes with your melatonin secretion. That could be one potential reason why you find yourself more sluggish the next day.

    Still, edibles seem the best choice if you need it for pain management. Vaporization provides instant relief and much longer lasting than combusting but not as long lasting as eating.


    If you live in a MMJ state, consider getting some cbd extracts to help with the pain without the psychoactive thc. You can top that with some vaporization so you get the full cannabinoid spectrum, but with higher cbd levels.
  15. Unconnected

    Unconnected Well-Known Member

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    121
    Eh, i find the vape hangover to be much much much less than the hangover from caning 10 bongs the night before. I use cannabis on a semi recreational basis (well, 3 years recreation, last two months ive shifted to be more medical, only getting stoned after 8pm or so because i use it as a sleep aid) For me there is nothing that can help me get to sleep besides cannabis, i can stay awake through a xanax or termazepam with ease, melatonin is a joke to my body, but cannabis allows me to get to sleep quickly and stay asleep for a solid 7-10 hours depending on what i need. With out it my only option is to sleep 4 hours a night tops and develop a load of crazy cancers long term from never having enough slepe, even though i can function fine on four, i know its not a healthy long term prospect.

    I dont see any problem with high tempreture vaping, infact shit, 400 is a low tempreture vape for me. On my old extremeQ i would start at 200c (400) and move up to 230ish (440) by the end of my bowl. A bit of benzene and napthene is nothing to worry about if you live in a city, or have friends or smoke cig's , burn incense in your house, cook food on bbq's etc.

    I find that i wake up with a much much much clearer head no matter if i vape so much at night that i finish the night laying in bed with the vape going and vaping with my eyes closed. That is the best part of the extremeq, the auto shutoff feature!

    In three years i have had one combustion, when i set my friends exq to 250c and F3 with a fully packed (but vaped, we were preheating it and forgot about last nights bowl) cyclone bowl, that did get a full cherry going. But yeah 250 and F3 and like 10 mins of it going like that is what it took for combustion to occur.
  16. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Being that everything is cumulative, I never did understand that logic.

    There IS something to worry about when inhaling benzine or carbon monoxide. To you, it may not be a big deal, but to others, especially those that are already dealing with an illness, it could be a very big deal. Just because you live in an area that has pollution, it still makes sense to cut back on as much of that pollution as possible, eh? It all adds up.

    I live in the outskirts of Los Angeles in the San Gabriel valley, which is known for smog. I also run 20 miles a week. My lungs are in great shape, especially for someone 69 years old. Hell, they're in great shape for someone of any age. The LAST thing that I would want to do is to inhale those toxins that you mentioned, but then, I also don't hang with friends who smoke cigs, nor do I burn incense or cook on a BBQ.

    But then, I exposed my body to 3 packs of cigs a day along with every recreational drug known to man, and lived in a house whose sole source of heat was the fireplace (this was all about 30 years ago) so for me, it's all about staying healed from all the damage that I did in my younger years.

    So to repeat, while it may not be something that you worry about, to tell others that it's nothing to worry about, in my opinion, is very bad advice.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
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  17. Unconnected

    Unconnected Well-Known Member

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    121
    By that logic you shouldnt be consuming any vapor... at all temperatures many chemicals are present in the vapor stream, because they are present in the ambient air you are sucking through the vaporizer.
    Chill Dude likes this.
  18. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,117
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    It all comes down to the risk/reward ratio, eh? I try to eliminate as much of the bad stuff, be it what I inhale and what I eat, as I can. I am fully aware that vapor is not totally harmless, but I'm willing to take the small risks from inhaling vapor below 385F than not vaping at all. What I am NOT willing to do is to knowingly inhale benzine and carbon monoxide.

    In regards to that risk/reward ratio, there are some people here who HAVE to vape at those higher temps to address certain symptoms of the illnesses that they are dealing with and for them, addressing those symptoms takes priority over the intake of those toxins.

    Again, for you, the risk/reward ratio may tilt to vaping at very high temps. I don't have any issue with that. What I have an issue with is advising others to do the same simply because they are already exposed to other toxins in their environment.
  19. Unconnected

    Unconnected Well-Known Member

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    121
    No your logic does not make sense. No matter the temperature you are being exposed to harmful chemicals all day long. Unless you totally eliminate all combustion from your life, that is, engines, gas stoves, grilling, bbq, fires, incense, candles, second hand smoke, diesel trucks and so on, staying under 400f is pointless and a huge waste of your weed. You can never eliminate all combustion unless you move to antarctica away from everyone/thing else.

    Further to that, none of your vapes have digital temperature control and a few of them used to run on butane or using a flame as a heat source... and you are telling people to watch out for benzene. Can i ask, how are you so sure that you are even staying under 400f with your LSV or indeed any of your other vapes? you are not, and you cant be, just because a vape is set at 400, does not mean the bowl is at 400, with a slow draw you can heat the weed beyond the temp the vape is set at, because the cannabis and glass parts accumulate heat, thats why slow draws are the go.

    And further to that, there is flat out no science about this stuff, what makes you so sure that 385f is safe, dont say 'im not sure' because you are clearly sure, otherwise you wouldnt be debating the point with me here. Sorry but some stupid infographic from hightimes magazine, that links back to a bunch of forums and wikipedia articles is not acceptable. Now you can say, well id rather not risk it, but you dont know that 385 is safe so you are still risking it... now i dont mind if you want to vape at low temps, but know that you are seriously missing out on the majority of the cannabis plant, that you are wasting quite a lot of pot and that you are likely damaging your lungs to the same level as someone vaping just 15f higher than you, who is 50x as stoned for the same risk level. I

    Honestly, if you have such a critical lung issue that you are not willing to 'risk' vaporizing beyond 200c (after three years of vaping and smoking weed all day (i would swap between only smoking, only vaping and doing both, now im vape only), much experimentation with low temps, i can conclude that below 200c you are just wasting your pot unless all you want is a very minor head buzz for half an hour) than seriously. you shouldnt be vaporizing or inhaling anything foreign into your lungs full stop.
  20. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    10,117
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    So let me get this straight. You believe that it's all or nothing? That is, if you can't eliminate ALL toxins from your environment, you shouldn't try to eliminate any of them?

    Your conclusion is flat out wrong. There are many people here, including myself who routinely stay below 200c and they get MUCH more than a very minor head buzz for a half an hour and many of these people never take their ABV any higher than a light golden brown.

    Also, most of us here use our ABV to make edibles, so there's really no wasting of pot by not going to the higher temps.

    Like I said before, if you or others desire to vape at high temps, have at it. I have no issue with that. But to advise others that for them, there is no potential harm if they do it is bad advice.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
  21. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"

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    1,270
    Would you say that a 1 pack-a-day cigarette-smoking city dweller who lives and breathes the daily city grime is at the same risk of cancer or lung disease as someone who doesn't smoke cigs at all? Would you say to someone "why take a bath, you're going to get dirty again anyway"? Would you say that gluttony is as healthy as moderation? ??? Did you suggest that combusting herb gets you 50X higher than vaping??? Thanks in advance for a "healthy" discussion!
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
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  22. Chill Dude

    Chill Dude Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Great post unconnected! I basically agree with everything you said. Vape Hangovers? I never get those. I vape late at night all the time and I sleep like a baby and wake up refreshed and energized. I also use cannabis for insomnia, I agree it works better for sleep issues than Benzos like Xanax and Klonopin and much better than Ambien ( talk about hangovers Ambien is the worst IMO). However, I do use Klonopin on tolerance breaks and find it pretty effective. I know nothing about melatonin secretion, all I know is cannabis works for me with virtually zero side effects except cotton mouth...

    As far as vape temperatures are concerned, I'm not worried the least bit. I usually vape between 390 and 425 and although there may be some toxins including benzene that appear starting at about 400f, it's such a minute amount that it's hardly worth worrying about. Some people will worry about that...I don't....As I recall, there was a Pubmed study that confirmed that the amount of toxins released at 425f was less than the toxins already floating around in the atmosphere.
    Silent, Norcalsun and Unconnected like this.
  23. Jahannum

    Jahannum Well-Known Member

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    There is alot of ignorance in this thread, most of which has already been addressed.

    Also, if you run everyday, like I do, you can tell the difference between staying around 385*f and going over 400*f has on your daily health. This is also because I limit the toxins I encounter to a minimum, because as Iwien said, toxins accumulate.

    To me, vaping and body health go together.

    Lol, what? Like above a chemical plant flare stack?
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  24. Chill Dude

    Chill Dude Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Me too, I run about 30 to 40 miles a week, and run half marathons top 10% in my age group. I also vape every day at 390 to 425 and I've never felt more fit! Sorry to hear that vaping at high temperatures has negatively affected your running performance. I, OTOH, have experienced no such problem.
    Quetzalcoatl and Jahannum like this.
  25. Unconnected

    Unconnected Well-Known Member

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    121
    I exercise, i often vape up before i go to the gym, i have never noticed a problem and on the EXq that had a digital temp function, i was at least vaping at 420f on average all day long. Im a bit different now, just vaping at night with my SSV, and im probably running higher temps and still feel great and no breathing difficulties. Seriously vaping at all is so much better than smoking that going a bit over 200c 400f isnt an issue that you should worry a lot about, its really not worth missing out on what is often what, 85% of your cannabis? if you had 15%thc that is. Often way more, thc is one of the lowest vaping temps cannabinoids out there.
    Grim Chiclets and Chill Dude like this.

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