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Vape Temp Profile Charts

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by stickstones, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    I took the draw when the lights on the Haze went solid, indicating that the set temp was reached. I could've waited of course until the real load temp maxed out on the internal reading, but I wanted to show the temp graph of a typical session. And no, I didn't bump the temp. It was set to setting 2 for the duration.

    In my testing I've noticed that it's quite normal in most (if not all) vaporizers for the load to continue to heat up even after the vaporizer indicates that the set temp was reached.

    :peace:
     
  2. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    520
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Some more graphing. This time with the probe inside a bowl and up against the screen. The probe's wire is so thin I could run it through the mesh. A little tape to even things out and it seals fine. I have a better idea in the works, but this will do for now.

    I think I am only seeing a taste of the screen temps with the noise on the 1st & 3rd draws (noted in blue). Another interesting thing happened when I lifted the vape off the bow: the temps went up (green "injector removed").

    Public graph here:
    https://plot.ly/~symphony.vapor/15/
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  3. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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    12,147
    Those are great, @jojo monkey ! I’d like to see how it goes with a slow draw. Were the herbs fully spent after that 3rd draw?
     
  4. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    520
    :rockon:

    My normal hits (like the ones in the previous graph) are about 5-6 seconds and fill my lungs to the limit. I took a crack at some slow ones. To compensate for the slower draw I raised the temp of the vape from the last test.

    As far the abv from the previous test, I would say the herb was low temp spent. Lighter than a UPS truck.

    [​IMG]

    public graph:

    https://plot.ly/~symphony.vapor/17/
     
  5. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    @jojo monkey would you say that you inhaled roughly the same volume of air in those four hits? The reason I ask is because if so it would appear that the faster draws reached higher temps than the slower draws which is counter-intuitive to the "slower draw = higher temp" mantra that we usually talk about on FC.

    I've often wondered if vapes like the Symphony that have lots of thermal energy at their disposal would act this way since there is more stored energy available and slowing the draw (normally something we do to increase temp) increases the time the air spends (cooling off all the while) between the heater and the load.:hmm:

    Vapes with a lower mass core can only supply so many calories per second so a faster draw gives a lower temp as the heater can't recover fast enough to maintain the set temp.

    Just spit ballin' here...

    :peace:
     
  6. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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    12,147
    I've been thinking the same thing for some of my vapes for a bit now as well, @Stu ...some of them seem to respond to a stronger draw with more vapor. The Tubo comes to mind, and I think I had that experience with my Zion but wouldn't swear to it.
     
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  7. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    520
    yeah. my lungs were filled for all of them.

    I think some vapes have more drag as the velocity goes up. For sure the amount of heat is in the mix too.

    The zion has lots of surface. The tubo is a tri-coil? Makes sense. :sherlock:
     
  8. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    Here's a chart I made using the FlowerPot Showerhead (uncapped) at 680°F with air being drawn through the bowl with an air pump. I started with a slowish air speed then increased the air speed to see what the temp would do.

    [​IMG]

    As I had suspected, the temp rose with the faster air speed - at least initially - until the heater became overwhelmed. Interesting stuff...

    :peace:
     
  9. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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    12,147
    So the temp spiked and dropped during the draw?
     
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  10. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    This is also my experience that with on-demand full-convection vapes, the harder you draw the higher the temperature. You get more air that is heated at the right temperature, because with the (optional) regulation and the mad power recent vapes have, like the Tubo for instance the heater is able to cope without dropping. More heated air molecules equals more calories to deliver to the load.

    This is my current explanation as to, whether it is in the Milaana, Zion, Project, MistVape Touch, iHeat or Tubo (the latter I don't own) you can set a single set temperature (or power in the Mi/Zi/MVT case) and cash the entire bowl with that single setting. It feels like it does automatic temperature stepping where in reality we tend to draw harder and longer as the session advances, leading to the above-mentioned effect.

    Also, marginally, the glass stem becomes hotter and hotter as the session advances, and while I don't think we can say it contributes any significant conduction heating, we can safely say that it robs less and less heat out of the air stream, leading again to more energy available for the load.

    Of course, this only holds as long as you don't overwhelm the heater...
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  11. Alexis

    Alexis Peace keeper, fun maker and 3/4 time vaporist.

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    Great work Stu we are lucky to have the ingenuinity of such willing and enthisiastic pioneers like yourself, @stickstones and @jojo monkey . Thanks for your efforts and insights guys.:tup:

    Stu, what strikes me from your Flowerpot test is the way the heater gets overwhelmed apparently fairly easily. As if controling draw rate is still very important.

    In contrast to the Symphony which shows the opposite effect with the faster drawv and seems pretty impossible to overpower.

    However, I was also very surprised to see the temps get quite that high on the GS graph, reaching nearly 250 C.

    So do we conclude from this that the Symphony is the more powerful heater of the two?

    One very big contrast berween these two is the length of draw generally required for a full size hit, across a range of temps. With my own FPSH use, where I had to stick to lower temps (550-600F) I did find that a pretty long draw was required every time for the larger hits.

    This was a little tiring for me, taking in so much air at a high flow rate, for such a long time.
    The Symphony appeals to me here, I like the idea of it working so well with a short, fast inhalation to get a full sized hit.

    Both these vapes have their own unique, special alchemy to extract so well. Very different though.
    I will enjoy watching all you vape geniuses figure this one out for us. I won't get in your way, on with the show!:popcorn:
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  12. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    520
    I tried to beat up the GS by taking a 1 second or so deep draw a bunch of times (45sec). The first draw was a little gimpy and the last two I tried to kill it.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Notice how each 'finger' gets a little smaller and smaller? That is the heat loss. Plus the max temp lowers more and more. Also notice how they look like Christmas trees? Hohoho!

    @Stu Any specs on that air pump? I tried one once and it was too slow. I imagine the GS would do the same thing at some point hooked to a pump.

    I was running at 810F on the pid. The pid controls the temp at the center of the heater so you can lower it to what you like.

    public graph: https://plot.ly/~symphony.vapor/19/
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  13. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    I still think that if we want precise temperature regulation with these full convection vapes, we either need to have *always* the same draw speed OR we need to measure the flow rate in some way (easier said than done of course)

    Without the air speed we're just missing one of the most important variables in the system. It works more or less because we tend to be consistent in the way we hit them, so the displayed temperature is just an indicator that is valid for a given configuration only (load size, distance and draw speed + duration) but it's almost never calibrated to what temperature the load actually receives in reality.

    With full conduction it's less of an issue because we know the load will be AT MOST what we set the bowl temperature to. And it's always AT OR BELOW that temperature, as they tend to sag when we hit them.
     
  14. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    Yes, but I wasn't gentle about increasing the draw speed during that test.
    Precisely. :nod:
    Yes, the draw rate plays a very important role along with heater temp.

    I ran another test trying to dial in the max sustained temp in the bowl for a given temp. In this case I used 680°F.

    I started with a fairly slow draw, then increased the speed by turning the choke valve about 1/2 turn. I wish I had an inline flow meter to give precise air speed, but alas I can only work with the tools in my toolbox. I then played around with the airspeed by decreasing a bit, increasing a bit until I found the "Goldilox" setting where the temp remained a steady 230°C.
    [​IMG]

    So to summarize: If the air speed is too slow - or too fast - then the temperature will be lower than the max temp available for any given temp setting. Fun stuff to measure, but at the end of the day it doesn't play that great of a role in how the vape is used. All this testing has shown me that this is still somewhat more of an art than a science, but it's fun either way.:science:

    :peace:
     
  15. Alexis

    Alexis Peace keeper, fun maker and 3/4 time vaporist.

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    Thanks Stu for the elaboration. And for sure we have to approach this as fun and put seriousness aside somewhat.

    What I am very interested in in a broader sense is what exactly is it that makes different vaporizers so different in the pure nature of the vapor they produce?
    It is in my mind, literally a different substance that is created, far more significant differences in effects on body and mind than we take for granted, or are capable of perceiving.

    I say this from the angle of my own personal varying reactions to different vaporizers.
    As you know the SV3 was a serious problem for me which I have no personal doubt was a true allergic reaction.

    No other device has ever caused a reaction like that. But every vape affects my allergies slightly differently.

    I cannot use the FPSH at all. It causes a big problem deep in my lungs and takes all my energy away. It is like a greatly increased allergic reaction. It doesn't make any sense, it doesn't appear to be explained by obvious variables like heat, hit size, vapor density, harshness etc.

    It is a reaction to the vapor the Showerhead produces. In contrast, the Herborizer Ti which is very similar in hit size, airflow, vapor quality, extraction, etc...and IDENTICAL materials- air is heated by passing over super hot titanium....

    I tolerate well and pretty comfortably, as well as any vape really. Why such a severe adverse reaction to the FPSH, which is completely absent with the Herbo Ti?

    From my experience, the vapor has a very different quality, nature and properties to it between these 2 devices.
    Not the same at all. The SH provides the superior, purer, less "altered/transformed" vapor, which I felt to be far more effective at delivering the medicinal properties of the herb into my bloodstream.
    Despite the adverse respiratory reaction, I was aware of profound physical benefits from the herb. Much more so than I have personally felt before from any vaporizer.

    The FP vapor is definitely more "oily". This might be it- I have never dabbed but maybe dabs would cause a similar response and I wouldn't tolerate it?

    It is a puzzle. All I know is the 2 vapes produce a very different substance effectively, the SH being closer I believe to the original state of the actives. Reclaim goo collects fast on glass- visible in a day or less. This doesn't happen with the Herbo Ti or any of my other vapes ever.

    And my Flowerpot ABV had a very peculiar and distinctive smell to it, kind of "petrolly", and unlike any ABV I have smelled before. Not bad, just strange.

    I am like a mining canary with my extreme sensitivities. But this doesn't detract from this notion of vapor being much more different than we are aware from one device to another.

    I hope for science to shed some light on this over the next 5-10 years.
     
  16. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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    @Stu...record a session and let’s see how different it is!
     
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  17. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    A FP session? I did that on the last page. Or are you requesting something else?

    :peace:
     
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  18. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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    I’m just high. You did! Can you mark it with where you stopped your draw? I’m wondering if it kept up with a human draw or got overwhelmed, given the pump overwhelmed it.
     
  19. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    Unfortunately I didn't note when the draw ended. I've since learned to video the test so I can go back and provide accurate notations. FWIW I don't believe that the heater was overpowered during that test, but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe I'll use the pump to run a real world test, like taking several 10 second draws with maybe 15-20 seconds between them.

    That test I ran was totally unrealistic for real world usage btw. No one takes a six minute non-stop draw, of course, but I wanted to run that test anyway because was high and thought it would be fun to see what would happen.

    :peace:
     
  20. The Beagle

    The Beagle Butanist Bubblemaker

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    This is also my experience with the Herborizer XL.
    Harder draws give you thicker vapor and vice versa.
     
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  21. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    So I decided to run this test today. Six draws with 20 second intervals for the heater to recover between them. The first five draws were for 10 seconds, while I let the final draw go for 20 seconds. Green arrows mark the start of the draw, red arrows mark the end of each draw.

    [​IMG]

    The heater does get overwhelmed towards the end of each draw, with the effect becoming slightly more pronounced during the last couple of hits.

    As a bonus here's a video of the test being performed. Warning: It's boring as hell.

    Click to play YouTube Video


    :peace:
     
  22. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    how does it perform at vaporizing temps of 190C? (why so low?)
     
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  23. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    The temps are so low because I ran that test using a wide open valve. In retrospect, this was probably not the best test to perform, but I was actively trying to overwhelm the heater, so I thought I'd crank it up to 11.

    I re-did the test using a partially choked valve which slows the airflow substantially. The first three draws are with the valve restricted (I used the "optimum" restriction that I determined in prior tests) and I opened it all the way up for the fourth draw for shits and giggles. The final draw was also restricted and was for a longer duration. Ignore the blank yellow box on the left...not sure how that got there. :shrug:

    [​IMG]

    Without using a flow meter, this stuff is still somewhat meaningless. I wish I could find one for a reasonable price to put this all in better perspective, but for now I'll have to be satisfied with "fastish draw" vs. "slower draw". It's clear that the wide open pump is too much for the heater to handle, but I doubt that normal hits from a human would come close to doing what the maxed out pump does.

    Test vid:

    Click to play YouTube Video


    :peace:
     
  24. Used2use

    Used2use Sometimes to stupid to become a fool

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    626
    Measuring of mass flow is one step more, but eg flow in a tube gives different velocitys between the middle and wandings - velocity and surface coefficients lead to reynold numbers and laminar or turbulent flow in a wide range it is a mixture of both. Laminar or turbulence flow makes a huge difference in heat transfer...
     
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  25. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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    12,147
    What are your thoughts on the differences?
     

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