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VapCap DIY Induction Heating : Bits 'n' pieces

Discussion in 'DIY' started by stardustsailor, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    It'd be nice if we had an EE to help us out huh. stardustsailor I understand had a child, he's got his hands full for a while. I think we have sorta high jacked his thread. :o

    Not sure I understand are you saying? I did post the question to both parts on BangGood, for what that's worth.

    What charger do you use or suggest for these types of packs stand alone, externally.

    Ha I just noticed your spoiler!
     
  2. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    Oh crap, I only trust my XTAR chargers with my home. This is nothing to 'play with' considering their hazard potential.

    First let me put it this way; charge circuits should be foolproof to the user. This should extend to the DIY guy and certainly to the guy giving instruction.
    Every design has a purpose, even if its purpose is to do nothing.

    This is my an example of the level of safety I am deploying with two different IH's. Both deploy a rapid cell removal opportunity. Both can be tossed out the door within 25' of anywhere in my house. Both IH's have momentary switches rated for the job. There is no place that I cannot see imminent failure along the circuit. And I've been mindful of the appropriate wire gauge for the expected load and potential wiring catastrophe. I have a BMS that limits current and handles short circuits and I understand how it is suppose to do that. I have a source voltage for my charge circuit that does not exceed the maximum voltage of the battery pack making it quite safe and to protect the charger (wall wart) from itself, I use a 5 watt 5 ohm resistor to charge the cells slowly using the BMS on-board charger that is untested. I trust my home to this setup as well.
    Count up the level of OCD statements made in this one paragraph. These are all my mitigation excuses for not completing this project into a small project box. I am still answering all those questions from a perspective of safety. My entire world is at risk of upending if these was a serious oversight.

    I am not new to this part of the hobby. I've done this with flashlight tech with a very similar risk, including harboring a small stick of dynamite inside a metal tube, basically. Shit can go very bad very quickly. I, in no way, will ever say anything that will risk you, yours, or your joint domicile with a incomplete or unwise solution when it comes to messing with Li-ion cells.

    Balance charging has come around to make sure each cell has it's own independent charger. You can use the balance charger board directly to your cells and use that as a charger. In that instance, using a fuse near the pack is all you need. It is preferred to use the fuse in that you can manage the fuse amperage rating rather that the 30-someodd amps the BMS will allow to pass. Basically, the BMS becomes redundant.

    One thing left to decide - where to put the balance charger. If you bring the 4 charge leads to the cells from outside the IH-box, they need to be fused also. They are a potential dead short to the cell. Keeping the balance charger in the case with the battery pack makes sense for this reason. Now you just need to provide 12.6V on a CC/CV supply on 2 leads which is its own 'fuse'. This is safe to plug into the box to drive your balance charger.

    The condition I am claiming is a can of worms is when you have a power supply charging the cells through the balance charger and you also have a way to put a 12.6V wall wart on the output of the BMS which activated the onboard BMS charge circuit. I don't know what those two regulator circuits would do when you have them both functioning in parallel.

    And as a finish the charger circuit - if I opted for the balance charge circuit, I'd still use the same 5 ohm resistor charging wire. That is a 24/7 safe solution for me. It simply cannot malfunction and it barely gets warm.

    Switches; I was looking for more reliable switches that the tactile switches to help with this bounce thing. It turns out those micro-switches are pretty good about a good solid contact force. They don't fit into my vision though. Thought that might be interesting to know.
     
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  3. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    For my variable voltage modulation, something like this would be what I'm looking at incorporating. This one is 20 amps. Overkill. 10 amps will suffice. Output caps and robust drivers also on heatsinks. It should either fail an IH spectacularly or manage voltage range of 7 to 12 volts pushing 4 cells.

    Anyone have a setup like that?

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    I ordered this today for dialing in voltage. If the IH survives this, it is a good solution. Its about the same size as the IH board.

    [​IMG]

    This helps define my project. 4x 18650 as input and adjustable voltage. That makes the IH a simple small wand on a cord. Now crossing my fingers that this will power the IH without issue. Rating: 200W 8 amp. I'm looking to deliver 7-12V which means I will be tweaking the potentiometer to limit the range.


    And add a DIY project tool just because its been long enough... note I got the one with one button. This will be a slow delivery.

    [​IMG]

    And put an offer in on a few more IH's.

    ...and if no one has figured out where I am going with this; the Ride the IH spoiler is about this project. I am proposing a utilitarian use for adjusting input power to the IH with regard to real-time heating your vapcap. I suspect the Cauldron is uniquely positioned to make use of such a device. It turns your VC into a Bud Ripper if you can believe that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
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  5. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    I've had one of those XTAR chargers on my short list for some time. I've been using a NITECORE i4 for years, it was a good charger but the springs are going.
    Your OCD related to safety, ain't nothing wrong with that.
    Damn I collected Flashlights too, hell I still do. I never built them though.

    Ok back to the plan, seems to stay in flux! Sounds like your leaning toward the Balance Charger alone
    I've no problem with that other than I've seen no example of it being wired that way. How do you bring power to it, through (B- & B4)? How about changing the charge circuit to this Protection Board and wire the Balance Board as shown https://www.ebay.com/itm/3S-5S-10A-...hash=item56d2c71374:m:m24MG13a4jI7xb7jHJ0DULg
    We could test it? Or just wire the Wall Wart direct like the guy on JAG35.com (the video post #161)
    The 12.6v/1amp Wall Wart https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-Li...y-Charger-AC-DC-Adapter-12-6V-1A/192022014736
    If you still think we'd need the resistor with this configuration, I'm game.
    No tactile switch, I don't understand why people like them. I would like a power on/off switch with
    a Momentary switch for activation.
    For Battery Charge level remember I have this on order https://www.ebay.com/itm/0-36-Digital-Voltmeter-Panel-DC-2-50-30V-Voltage-Mount-LED-Voltmeter-Red-dd/282668169676?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
    The Enclosure I've started to layout in Google sketch and haven't got far with it yet but I'm not seeing an easy way to get the battery trays out with using a much bigger box so on board charging & balancing will be internal

    OK I just got a reply from a seller of the balance boards, his reply-
    I've seen pictures of this being done on other stores but haven't confirmed it to be true. Thank You not a lot of help
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  6. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    My leaning is to one or the other not both. But again, it is all about how things are packaged. Time for some diagrams to shoot some holes in.
    That voltmeter should do fine. Always nice to have bezels provided.
     
  7. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    Well there's more of this stuff out everyday it seems, I'll look for a better protection/ balance board
    or do straight wall wart.
     
  8. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    Tell me about it. I got a couple of boost converters with cell charger inputs in the mail today. Got a couple more IH on order. Going to be a long month waiting for things to arrive. I'll stick with a 4 cell BMS and use it's balance charger. It really is tedious testing circuits like that.
     
  9. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    At 4s your no longer at 12v right, this is to run through the regulator I assume. I've been waiting 2mo on
    some glass, slow boat from China.
     
  10. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    Correct; a little headroom for the regulator and some spare juice for vaping.

    I've been using both 8.4V and 12.6V for the VC depending on the session. First draw invariably I am using the real-time draw method on the 8.4V pack. Follow-on draws are more conventional using the 12.6V pack where I might re-fire a couple of times with 2-3 seconds while drawing. There is very little left at this point.

    Bottom line, I want 8V to the IH for real-time extraction. I can keep up with that and it can keep up with me. But I also want an easy way to get to full power for the conventional heating profile.

    With the revised convex CCD position, I can actually outdraw 7V to the IH. I can regulate the temperature by draw speed. Not nearly as pleasant as having just a bit more power than you could ever need during a draw. Obviously having a lot more power just results in flame-outs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  11. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    Well I'm glad you're taking lead on this, I think there's a lot of potential. I wonder if this could be adopted to heat a titanium e-nail. I'd join you on this but I need the battery version for travel and backup.
    Funny I was going to charge with it and you've moved it to the other side, I like.

    I just got a roll of the Magnet Wire 16 AWG Gauge by Temco, Looks much better than what they send.
    I'll start experimenting with coiling.
     
  12. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    My direction is utilitarian. However, it is still portable - not connected to AC power. The charger will be the 4 amp CC/CV panel unit.

    I'd love to see a nail application. Yes of course it would work. The real question is how to manage temperature. That would be the bomb - and very doable.
     
  13. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    I'm looking forward to seeing how you configure your new project. You mentioned a wand?

    Things are starting to trickle in 3 IH modules, glass tubes, wire etc.

    Nails and Bangers are new to me but my first thought when seeing how they were used was "why not
    induction", I've seen the bangers in titanium as well. They should be closer to standard coil size. This
    will be a cool project.....down the road a bit.
     
  14. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    This variable voltage power brick will be right up the IH banger's alley.

    Wand - yes, I want to keep the coil mobile-portable. You hold the wand up to the draw rather than the reverse. Real-time heating. Can be used conventionally as well. I found a nice push-button switch for the FET switch. This one has a nice over-center click to it. I'll see if I can wire that in tomorrow. If this works out I can start a 3D-printed case.
     
  15. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    Hey TD I'm trying to get the last of parts on order. I've lots of 18ga auto wire on hand. Should I get a thicker wire for trays & power? Was looking at the silicon it's easier to work with..
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  16. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    18 works, 16 will have a little less loss.
     
  17. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    Such a sweet solution on the switch! I happened to have a nice little straight forward push button switch which fits snugly in the paired coils. Got the FET switch to fit mostly within the original form-factor.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Anyone know if FET switches have any parasitic drain?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
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  18. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    SLICK....When you said "wand" I envisioned the coil with a handle and couldn't understand how that was possible. Here you'll just have wires to a battery pack. Well done. Do you intend to put on the power brick?
     
    TommyDee likes this.
  19. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    Yes indeed. I've made a module out of the IH. This, I believe, is the minimalist version of the IH that can be housed in some kind of housing. Still full power capable. I've been switching between 8.4V and 12.6V packs depending on the extraction at hand. Once my orders start landing, I will be making a variable input brick as a 'power module'. Still potable but corded to the IH. Then you get the charger module. Still working out the interfaces and requirements much like you.

    And I need to back up on some things. I've been looking at the balance board as a charge circuit. It isn't. It is a balance circuit. It is wholly independent of what the BMS does. Basically it is a low current regulator that makes sure each cell is at the same potential. This is for cells that never leave the device. Therefore, Forget everything I said! :uhoh: :tup:
    There is no way to mess up this circuit and it lives with the cells to always function. The only word of warning is that is does have parasitic drain. This means that after sitting for a decade, it may start to get low on a charge. One of my OCD peeves - ignored li-ion cells in tucked away places (read: fire hazard).

    And due to this, I will design the power pack with replaceable cells so I can monitor their health manually. I do avoid parasitic drain in battery powered devices when practical.
     
  20. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    VERY Cool so my suspicions were correct, that's great news I almost ordered a much larger BMS/Balance board last night....so now I can go with what I originally ordered. I did not know you had the balance board in hand, so you've verified this!? :clap::clap::clap:

    Oh forgot to show you this https://www.dhgate.com/product/6-in...urce_id=385666630#s1-12-1;searl|2914169315:13

    for testing :tup:
     
  21. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    I don't have the balance board but I needed to do some studying to understand the function better. There are some nuances in these circuits that missed originally.

    It is good to note that the BMS that the PSM uses is the 10A version. I have not seen any 10 amp readings as yet. When I get the 16.8V pack built I'll know what 12V exactly does for current. I suspect we'll be in the 90 watt range.

    You want as much clear area below the draw-tube as you can get for an IH nail. Coils are effective in many shapes. You can even wrap them under the bowl. Basically maximize the number of turns near the area you want heated.

    Do you have any hand-held digital thermometers? I'm wondering if we can get a reading from below the nail.

    Once I get this set up, I will look at marrying a smaller battery pack directly to the wand. It won't have the variable voltage capabilities so it is basically yet another PSM. That doesn't make sense. Maybe as a low power bud extender or reheater using 2x li-ion makes more sense as a stand-alone ReHeater.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
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  22. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    If your talking about a Infrared Digital Thermometer, no I don't, Harbor Freight has a cheap one cheap!
    I think it's standard equipment for those using torches.
     
  23. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    :rofl: I have one... I'm thinking to tap into one for the IH VC to manage temperature, but one pointing up at the nail should do well to give you a nail-temp. I'll get another as a sacrificial rube to see if I can get the signal out of it to incorporate in a micro-processor. That is the next step for VC IH.

    I suspect that a temperature controlled IH nail would make for a pretty nice product. It wouldn't be too difficult to hard-wire a proper temperature sensor to a custom make nail.
    This would start to look a lot like the 710 coils :2c:
     
  24. PKOK

    PKOK Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    South Florida
    TD you're truly a mad scientist :science: let's not get the cart ahead of the horse. Configuration & setup for usability. Testing to make sure the thing works as desired and then enhancements. Don't we still need to test the Regulator. I need to get a couple in, one for possibly charging a small powerbrick.
    Your right though it's pretty cool, the possibility of replacing the expensive 710 coils.
    You may have already done this as you continue to surprise me.:leaf:
     
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  25. TommyDee

    TommyDee Vaporitor

    Funny you should say that :evil: True about the regulator. I feel a lot better about it considering it has capacitors included. I don't have concerns about dirty power as much as I am about a harmonic that could drive the IH FETs batty. With a background in power supplies, this is easy to overcome. I'm just hoping to minimize bulk and wiring.

    The real challenge is for coders. If we get an IH to talk temp-control through a processor, then you have a product. I don't think this is too difficult.

    I'll try this one for the charger - https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/NEYAAOSwxOleaaeV/s-l1600.jpg
    ...and this one for running the IH - https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e7gAAOSwz5peHBnC/s-l1600.jpg

    I just need to see if the charger requires a fan or not. It will be charging at under 8 watts. Remember that 2A cell chargers are 10 watts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020

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