True/Accurate temperature vapes?

[AJS]

In this day and age of vaping, people are realizing the benefits achieved through certain temperatures when vaping. This can be very important to many, but unfortunately, technology hasn't evolved enough to perfectly measure temperature consistently through all vapes. This is problematic!

Speaking from personal experience, it seems the Arizer Air achieves the temperatures that it lists. This is going simply off the fact that my herb looks/tastes what I would expect it to after a set temperature.
The problem is, we know that the heater can't keep up with the airflow perfectly enough to ensure it is staying at that temperature. Sometimes the light will blink, alerting us that the unit has cooled down, but I think we all know the unit isn't at the exact temp constantly. If I required medicine at 392 degrees, I wouldn't believe the Arizer Air would vape my entire bowl at exactly 392.

Basically, what I'm wondering, is what vapes achieve through preheat, and hold, their expected/desired temperatures?
I know the majority of people will say the Volanco and Herbalizer will stay almost exactly at their listed temp, and the herb is heated almost exactly at that temp, consistently.
I believe the majority will say vapes like the HA and EQ will list a temperature, but that temperature is used more as a reference, not as an actual heated temperature of the herb. .... This is an issue for people who only want the benefits of that certain temperature.

What about vapes like the Crafty and Mighty? It seems that those will hold their listed temperature better than most portables, but who has tested and knows the accuracy of the temperature before a draw and during a draw?
We know something like the Grasshopper holds it's temperature very well, but it doesn't have an exact reading of the actual temperatures.

Is it seriously so much to ask for, for a vape that displays a temperature, and for the heater / herb to hold that temperature throughout your draw?

 

[DDave]

people will say the Volanco and Herbalizer will stay almost exactly at their listed temp, and the herb is heated almost exactly at that temp, consistently.

Got to briefly chime in. Consistency and Accuracy are two different things.

Even the mightly Herbalizer, which keeps its temperatures probably as consistent as I've read of any unit needed to be calibrated for some, as their units were "running cold". So for accuracy, calibration and temperature; measurements done in a consistent manner need to be made in order to validate a unit as accurate.

 

[AJS]

Got to briefly chime in. Consistency and Accuracy are two different things.

Even the mightly Herbalizer, which keeps its temperatures probably as consistent as I've read of any unit needed to be calibrated for some, as their units were "running cold". So for accuracy, calibration and temperature; measurements done in a consistent manner need to be made in order to validate a unit as accurate.

Glad you pointed out that difference.
I really don't see why those things wouldn't be tested prior to release. I guess they just want to make them and send them off faster...but jeeze, that's like a car saying I'm going 40 when I'm going 60. Or a clock being wrong.
I don't like the "eh, close enough" feel I get from most manufacturers.

 

[DDave]

Glad you pointed out that difference.
I really don't see why those things wouldn't be tested prior to release. I guess they just want to make them and send them off faster...but jeeze, that's like a car saying I'm going 40 when I'm going 60. Or a clock being wrong.
I don't like the "eh, close enough" feel I get from most manufacturers.

No sweat! There are a lot of improvements being made.. .In both the car and vape industry.

(For example, I changed the tire sizes on a truck recently and of course that throws the whole equation off for the truck. Instead of having to change speedo gears or such, one just needs buy a programmer box that plugs into the diagnostic port under the dash and simply tell the truck the size tires you installed. Then everything goes back to normal operations.)

So in summary, we need diagnostic ports on our vapes and programmer boxes... Just kidding on that part!

Maybe the vape industry could benefit by following suite in the automotive industry?

(Could you imaging a Herbie on 35's?)

 

[Stevenski]

I am not so concerned with what temperature I am vaping at but more concerned with it being consistent. Sometimes I want to be fully functional & only vape at a lower temperature. So long as it is under say 200c but stable I will be happy for daytime use.

 

[AJS]

I am not so concerned with what temperature I am vaping at but more concerned with it being consistent. Sometimes I want to be fully functional & only vape at a lower temperature. So long as it is under say 200c but stable I will be happy for daytime use.

I agree, consistency is very important for me as well...my vape purchases make it clear that I prefer consistency over temp readings

 

[jojo monkey]

A number that is not accurate can still be used as a reference. I find it easier to set a vape to a number than a position on a dial.

Even the mightly Herbalizer, which keeps its temperatures probably as consistent as I've read of any unit needed to be calibrated for some, as their units were "running cold". So for accuracy, calibration and temperature; measurements done in a consistent manner need to be made in order to validate a unit as accurate.

From what I understand all probes will drift through time. Some types drift more than others.

So how many vapes let you calibrate the temp probe? I think none?

I am not so concerned with what temperature I am vaping at but more concerned with it being consistent.

Knowing an arbitrary number for what is going on in the heater is a pretty good way to stay consistent. If your vape uses a dimmer you have no clue and are using your throat as temp control.

@AJS

Is it seriously so much to ask for, for a vape that displays a temperature, and for the heater / herb to hold that temperature throughout your draw?

There are always trade offs. Would you want a controlled stream of air with a restrictive hit? Or what if you get a perfect stream but it has no heat and takes a few hits to get herb going?

Note that temperature is not energy, it is a number proportional to a type of energy. Heat, on the other hand, is actual energy measured in Joules or other energy units. Heat is a measurement of some of the energy in a substance. When you add heat to a substance, you are adding energy to the substance.

 

[Stevenski]

I agree I like an arbitrary number as a reference @jojo monkey. What I mean is I don't care if it says it is 190, 200 or 210 so long as it is consistent. I like my Air for example. On white it leaves lightly toasted buds. green leaves them a bit darker & when I use my GonG & red it always has a black top of near char. It is extremely consistent in the way it has behaved over 100's of sessions. The actual temperature it reaches is immaterial to me since when bonged it gets it close enough & when using direct draw stems it stays cool & flavoursome enough for me to enjoy.

 

[KeroZen]

I think there is a pattern happening between (mostly) "conduction" and (mostly) "convection" vapes, at least those having some form of active temperature regulation.

With all conduction designs I studied and dismantled (or seen gutted on this forum) the probe is outside the load and right from the start (unless it's compensated in software) it tends to read higher than the actual plant material temperature at the center of the bowl. Then when you draw you overwhelm not the heater itself (as for instance in the FlowerMate8 we have 3S voltage and a peak power output of 120W!) but instead you overwhelm the bowl heat exchange capacity (stainless steel conducts more than ceramic, and the worst is glass lined ceramic like in the Ascent, which is a pretty good insulator in fact)

So what happens in practice is that the software sees the temperature drop at the probe when it's already too late: the temperature of the load has droped below vaporization temperature and your draw managed to cool the ceramic bowl which in turn cools the probe. Then the software cranks the PWM output to compensate (via some kind of PID controller) but the probe being closer to the heating element than the load, it thinks it can keep the temperature steady close to the set point but due to the aforementionned heat exchange capacity (and the fact you keep drawing) there is a lag... and it's overwhelmed and you get only wispy vapor at that point.

This is why with conduction vapes, you need to wait for vapor to accumulate in the bowl then sip that gently away. If you draw too much it's counter productive. One could say the least you draw and the more you wait in between hits, the more vapor you will get. The net effect is that with these kinds of conduction vape you can assume that the temperature is always *at or below* the set point (in the Ascent case, "below" means considerably below after a draw, as @OF measured)

With convection vaporizers it's the inverse somehow: I think they tend to be *at or above* the set point and this is illustrated by the bad tendency most of them have to be able to create hot spots in the load (and even combust at times) I asked for instance in the Mighty/Crafty thread to confirm what some users reported and I got indeed that confirmation: it seems you can set them for instance to 190°C and do the entire session at that set point. Then if you raise the setpoint when the level is done (or if you move the load to another vape) there is nothing left. It's quite puzzling isn't it?

In a similar fashion (but there is no active temperature control here) I get the same effect in my Zion: I can set a given power setting then do the entire session at that setting and still get low temp then mid temp then high temp and at the end everything is extracted and nothing is left. The temperature stepping is almost automatic, I just have to increase my draw times. You might say it's because of the lack of regulation but it's similar in the Firefly which is regulated and I don't know for the ESV? (at least this one has selectable set points)

But if we take the example of a convection vape with active temperature regulation (closed loop), probing the air flow before it reaches the load at or just after the heating element, I believe what happens is the following: the load accumulates heat in the process, the longer you draw the more heat it receives from the incoming hot air stream, meaning the actual vaporization temperature will tend to increase. So we have the inverse effect here compared to conduction vape: if the vape is powerful enough you won't overwhelm the heater either but the longer you draw the more vapor you get, and the higher the extraction temperature...until you reach combustion (this is why the ESV and FF for instance disengage the heater after some time, otherwise the temperature of the load would keep climbing and climbing while the probe sees a steady value)

 

[Hippie Dickie]

Is it seriously so much to ask for, for a vape that displays a temperature, and for the heater / herb to hold that temperature throughout your draw?

i think i have demonstrated (to myself, at least) that this can be quite easily done, and for $25 in parts. i use a BBQ thermometer to show the temperature of the glass oven tube. i use a k-type thermocouple to measure the hottest point of the heater coil and a software PID to maintain the temperature. the BBQ thermometer functions like a "fair witness" - i.e. it is accurately showing the oven temperature regardless of what the software is doing. so it is easy to bump the temperature set point up or down if the PID drifts - the cold joint compensation is +/-6°C so there can be some drift from session to session, but is consistent once it makes up its mind.

the final factor is a power source that can deliver 12 amps on demand, and the A123Systems batteries can hit 70 amps.

so, i have +/- 1°F consistency during a session.

yeah, not all that hard to do ... designer's choice, i guess.

 

[DDave]

A number that is not accurate can still be used as a reference. I find it easier to set a vape to a number than a position on a dial.

Absolutely agree!

So how many vapes let you calibrate the temp probe? I think none?

From a consumer perspective, none

Spoiler

Yet...

 

[kellya86]

Surely to get a true temp gauge on a vape, you need an accurate IR beam, focused on the herb to measure the herb temp as it's being vaped.

Everyone is still putting sensors everywhere near the herb and heater, why are we not just measuring the herb directly?

 

[Hippie Dickie]

why are we not just measuring the herb directly?

i think it is overkill (as well as hard to do) ... i put a sensor in the middle of the bud and 5 seconds after starting a draw the temperature in the middle of the bud is the same as the BBQ thermometer measuring the glass oven tube. now, granted, that is still not a direct measurement of the bud temperature, but if the probe (glass bead) can get to temp in 5 seconds, i believe the bud is there, too. the temp drops 50F between draws.

 

[nondarb]

(Could you imaging a Herbie on 35's?)

I like the new direction DDave mods are moving in!

 

[Aimless Ryan]

I hadn't thought of some things discussed here until reading this thread, but now that I've read it I feel like the disposable modification I have recently made to my Aromed addresses some of the issues brought up here.

What you see below (inside the glass) is a riser I made out of flour and water, to lift my screen closer to the heat source. Since you can't see it from above, you should know that this toy is basically a cylinder of [rock hard] baked dough, about 2 mm thick around the circumference, which has been baked by the Aromed itself.

Since I started doing this (about 10 days ago), my Aromed has been amazing. Before that, when I had to keep the screen at the bottom of the herb holder, it was pretty useless. However, even having owned it for five months before I made this change, I didn't realize how useless my Aromed was.

Here's what I feel this does for me:

• It raises my screen considerably closer to the heat source, which is much hotter than the area where the screen sits in an unmodified Aromed.
• It makes the oven considerably smaller, thus wasting considerably less heat.
• Less turbulence, which keeps the herbs in the heat path, instead of making them swirl around the cooler periphery of the heat path.
• It lets me see what's going on, which keeps me aware of how everything is functioning.

I no longer care what number is on my Aromed's temperature display, first of all because I know it's wrong by at least 100°F (when used unmodified). Instead, what I care about is how high I must raise my herbs before they will combust. The answer: With my Aromed, herbs combust when the machine is set to 456°F and the screen is located a little higher than in my picture (a couple millimeters above the "i" in "Magic").

Now all I have to do is make sure my herbs don't go any higher than the point at which they will combust. When done successfully, it seems like the temperature display on my Aromed may be pretty accurate.

One good thing about the Aromed is that you can see everything as it happens. I could see what was happening when my Aromed was basically useless, and I can see what's happening now that it kicks ass. Big difference.

Look at all that wasted space occupied by my riser. To me that seems like a design flaw. With this modification, I now use about 15% of the volume of the oven. Instead of filling up a huge oven with a finite amount of hot air, I now fill up a very small oven with the same amount of hot air (sorta).

One way I see it is like this: When you put buttered bread in your oven on broil to toast it, you put the bread at the top of the oven. If you put the buttered bread at the bottom of the oven (on broil), your bread won't be toasted at all. Rather, it will be slowly baked, because there is nowhere near as much heat at the bottom of the oven.

However, this comparison is imperfect, because I don't believe there is a way to create convection broil, at least with my oven. Still, my Aromed modification has made a big-time positive difference (and it might even be relevant to this conversation).

 

[Cantibliss]

Battle of the Bowls - Vaporizer Temperature Accuracy - YouTube

FYI: Temp Accuracy with Mighty and DaVinci vape brands.

 

[KeroZen]

Hm. Interesting but potentially non-representative. Would have to test how they hold when drawing to be conclusive.