Discontinued ThermoVape

[PhreedomPhries]

This could be interesting. Did they say what the new overall resistance will be?
Gonna be a tight fit. Let us know how it pans out for you.
Pipes

This is very much part and parcel of what I, and I believe TV, would heart assistance in figuring out. Any guidance on the numbers is much much appreciated. This seems a worthy project.

 

[jambandphan03]

Going back to the thumb grip pad idea that was being tossed around, I ran across this stuff, and since it was around $6 (free shipping) I went ahead and ordered a roll. It doesn't say how much you get, but it's a low enough price to risk...
http://www.zumiez.com/mob-grip-tape.html?gclid={SI:gclid}

says: "Bubbleproof application. Exclusive grit-binding process for grip that will not wear out. Tear-resistant "plastic plywood" backing that trims evenly every time. Super sticky adhesive that will not peel up in extreme heat or cold."

Might make for a good thumb grip patch. I don't know how much it will help with the heat build up, but at least it might help ease the push of the switch a bit... I'll find out soon, and if it's any good, I'll post more.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

I wonder... It looks like the sandpaper stuff they put on the bottom of skate boards. I wonder if I could cut that in to little strips that fit in the recessed areas of the battery holder and wrap it around. If it could fit around that and still move up and down it might be nice to have the extra texture. Please report back and let us know how this stuff works.

 

[jambandphan03]

Yep, it's grip tape for a skate board...originally, I thought about cutting a small pad shaped like the opening of the switch, but the bands around the grooves sounds good too. I have 2 battery sleeves, I will try one of each... I just hope I CAN remove it if I decide to change it.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

The opening of the switch is a safer bet. That way it will move regardless how thick the paper is. The bands around might not work if the paper is too thick. Could cause things to get all jammed up. If you have a heat gun/paint stripper you should be able to heat up the glue and peal it off. Then you can use a little goo gone in order to remove the rest of the residue from the battery casing.

 

[Pipes]

I guess I'm just too cheap. I found some grip pads pre-cut 3/4" circles. Pack of 12 sets. Made by Duramax called Hook and Loop fasteners. I like the harder side rather then the soft side. Stick great and last as long as I need before having to remove to remove the battery sleeve.
Best of all, a buck at the dollar store.
Pipes

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

As an alternative how about using a rubber sewing thimble on your thumb? It's reusable, will last years, wont leave sticky gunk on the switch and is bloomin' cheap

 

[jambandphan03]

I was using one of the caps that one of my thermovape products came with, problem is, always having it there to use... the tape would always be on the battery sleeve. I thought about the bands, and if this stuff sticks good, maybe short lengths mimicking the inside of the opening for the switch, would look cool anyway. Not sure if that would work though. Might be more trouble than it's worth. I'll probably just do a patch, to start with, see if it helps with the heat.

 

[Pipes]

Here's the stuff.

Been using off and on for a week or two. They can left a bit and rub the side but no big deal. Better then continuously drying hands and cleaning slider.

 

[jambandphan03]

nice thumb pad, and interesting cartridge you got there too....

 

[OF]

spreading the load over three coils instead of two just might put less stress on the individual coils, and thus allow them to have prolonged longevity. Secondly, it is my suspicion that a third coil, triangularly-spaced, may also lend an assist in creating an (even) more uniform distribution of heat within the chamber. I have explained that it is my intent to have a core with precisely the same heating power of the current T1 core. If all goes according to the grand design inside my head, it could be swell, no?

Interesting experiment. I'm not sure about some of these potential advantages. The coils will still have to be driven to high temperatures, I'm not sure it will cause the coils to last longer, but by adding a third coil it will (in theory) lower the service life before the first of the three goes open. Yes, having 'extra' engines on a plane gives insurance that won't be left as a doomed glider in an engine failure, but it also increases the chances that you'll have engine failures. How that works out in the long run will be hard to measure.

And the 'uniform heat distribution' idea isn't really in play here. It's not hot surfaces that do the work, but rather Infrared Radiation being bounced around in there. It's called 'the kiln effect' in that everything in the kiln comes up to the same temperature no matter where they sit in relation to the heat source. The idea of the core is two fold past that. First it preheats (in the T1 format) by drawing in through the assembly (also cools the unit) then into the core where it's purposely made 'non laminar' (that is not smooth) so all the air is in the hot zone for about the same time.

This modification might well help that. But like determining longer service life it might be very hard to determine, especially from a single trial. Good luck, please keep us posted?

Thanks.

OF

 

[PhreedomPhries]

Interesting experiment. I'm not sure about some of these potential advantages. The coils will still have to be driven to high temperatures, I'm not sure it will cause the coils to last longer, but by adding a third coil it will (in theory) lower the service life before the first of the three goes open. Yes, having 'extra' engines on a plane gives insurance that won't be left as a doomed glider in an engine failure, but it also increases the chances that you'll have engine failures. How that works out in the long run will be hard to measure.

And the 'uniform heat distribution' idea isn't really in play here. It's not hot surfaces that do the work, but rather Infrared Radiation being bounced around in there. It's called 'the kiln effect' in that everything in the kiln comes up to the same temperature no matter where they sit in relation to the heat source. The idea of the core is two fold past that. First it preheats (in the T1 format) by drawing in through the assembly (also cools the unit) then into the core where it's purposely made 'non laminar' (that is not smooth) so all the air is in the hot zone for about the same time.

This modification might well help that. But like determining longer service life it might be very hard to determine, especially from a single trial. Good luck, please keep us posted?

Thanks.

OF

OF, is this all to imply you would reckon that each of the three coils will still have to get as hot as each of the two coils do in the standard core? If that is true, wouldn't that lead to a full 1/3 more total heat generation, which would in turn lead to likely combustion? I ask because it is not my intent to add more overall heat, but rather to distribute that heat over more independent points. Not unlike the principle of LED lighting panels replacing single-light HID. In other words, more coils, but less heat intensity from each coil, adding up to the same amount of heat. I'm confident this point of mine was previously understood by you, but I am trying to clarify what my expectation is rooted in. Perhaps each of the three coils would need to be shortened slightly to decrease the total amount of heat they can generate as compared to a two-coil core? Though then I'm not sure the coils would have any better longevity, as you mentioned OF, because if it's the same total amount of wiring in the core, it may just be more likely to experience a coil failure, since there are three to fail instead of two. BUT, if the coils could remain the same size, but adding a third one to the core, then it seems the electrical load that the cells are delivering would be spread out over more wire, and thus expose the wiring to less overall stress.

Hopefully this is clear?

 

[OF]

I follow what you're saying, and what your goal is, at least I think I do. I just don't think it's based on sound principles. In broad terms you want 20 or so Watts there. Within the limits of the heaters you can get there lots of ways, but looking at it from a 'feet of wire' standpoint like you are won't work. You need to deal with these things on their level, they're not about to change based on what you and I want to have happen. In this case it means you'll want to have say seven Watts a coil? The ones before were ten? You want longer wires (not shorter) than before since longer wires will have more resistance, and more resistance will cause lower current than before which when multiplied by the same voltage before is a lower power. Make them 3/2 (one and a half times longer) and you'll be close to target (there are some small effects in play usually as well, but his 'back of the envelope' calculation will be close). However, that's not practical (half again more turns) so TV will most likely change the wire size (which will raise the 'Ohms per foot' rating), going to about 2/3 the cross sectional area (two wire gauges higher IIRC) for each coil. If you close your eyes and think of it as lots and lots of parallel lines like in MFLB then mentally group them together the idea might be easier to see?

Within reason, hot is fine, it's what the heater is designed to do. The one in my soldering iron is 20 plus years old and for many of those days ran all day long at hotter temperatures. At these levels no really useful increase in lifespan comes (or the engineering on the core would incorporate them), the materials seem to be all within their ratings. With more coils comes more connections. It really becomes a push. And in the extreme, becomes a negative sometimes.

How many green street lights do you see missing LEDs? We have quite a crop around here.

Like I said, worth looking into. I just don't have the same expectations you seem to is all. Then again, I've never done the calculations or experimented with the cores directly....but I have been asked to test quite a number of configurations that don't work as well as the production ones.....

Once you have a core of a fixed size with turbulent flow of air through a uniformly hot region how the region got hot doesn't matter much.

Good luck with your experiment, I doubt it'll be too far off the mark.....whatever that is?

OF

 

[PhreedomPhries]

I follow what you're saying, and what your goal is, at least I think I do. I just don't think it's based on sound principles. In broad terms you want 20 or so Watts there.

OF

Do you mean 30 watts? I am confused on that point.

 

[PhreedomPhries]

I follow what you're saying, and what your goal is, at least I think I do. I just don't think it's based on sound principles. In broad terms you want 20 or so Watts there. Within the limits of the heaters you can get there lots of ways, but looking at it from a 'feet of wire' standpoint like you are won't work. You need to deal with these things on their level, they're not about to change based on what you and I want to have happen. In this case it means you'll want to have say seven Watts a coil? The ones before were ten? You want longer wires (not shorter) than before since longer wires will have more resistance, and more resistance will cause lower current than before which when multiplied by the same voltage before is a lower power. Make them 3/2 (one and a half times longer) and you'll be close to target (there are some small effects in play usually as well, but his 'back of the envelope' calculation will be close). However, that's not practical (half again more turns) so TV will most likely change the wire size (which will raise the 'Ohms per foot' rating), going to about 2/3 the cross sectional area (two wire gauges higher IIRC) for each coil. If you close your eyes and think of it as lots and lots of parallel lines like in MFLB then mentally group them together the idea might be easier to see?

Within reason, hot is fine, it's what the heater is designed to do. The one in my soldering iron is 20 plus years old and for many of those days ran all day long at hotter temperatures. At these levels no really useful increase in lifespan comes (or the engineering on the core would incorporate them), the materials seem to be all within their ratings. With more coils comes more connections. It really becomes a push. And in the extreme, becomes a negative sometimes.

How many green street lights do you see missing LEDs? We have quite a crop around here.

Like I said, worth looking into. I just don't have the same expectations you seem to is all. Then again, I've never done the calculations or experimented with the cores directly....but I have been asked to test quite a number of configurations that don't work as well as the production ones.....

Once you have a core of a fixed size with turbulent flow of air through a uniformly hot region how the region got hot doesn't matter much.

Good luck with your experiment, I doubt it'll be too far off the mark.....whatever that is?

OF

Thank you OF. I stand corrected as to the resistance requiring either a thicker gauge and/or longer length; not shorter. That makes sense. However, in consideration that I have had a coil fail in two cores in such short time, I think indeed there is an advantage to be had in using a thicker gauge of wire. Your point is duly noted about how long your soldering gun held up, however these cores only carry a 3-month warranty for a reason. One such reason that I would suggest is because of the repeated exposure to oscillating hot and cold temperatures; not unlike what happens to an incandescent bulb when put under similar stresses (as compared to being left on all day, similar to your soldering gun). It is the repeated firing of a bulb that leads it to more rapidly burn out. Similar mechanics here, methinks. I'd love to see a core that TV could warrant for a year of use, for example; not unlike is the case with quality HID bulbs. Three coils of thicker gauge seems like a good path to achieving that. So, none of the TV prototypes you tested, OF, ever bothered to experiment with this principle? Interesting... I wonder why not, since TV must have realized the fragility of the heater, thus the short warranty. For example, my Vapir (although a piece of shit, to be sure), did indeed warrant the ceramic heater against failure for the same duration as the rest of the unit, which I believe was at least one year, and perhaps two or even three.

 

[OF]

Do you mean 30 watts? I am confused on that point.

Yes, if we're talking about T1....I've got Evolution on the brain right now, trying to make sense of this PA thing.......

The cores are the same, basically, scaled.

BTW, I've never seen 3 coil cores, but I have seen some single core beta test cores. AFAIK none of them really successful. In a fun way it also looks like the cores are really running about 3/4 then level we think they are, which also adds to the head scratching. I'm measuring closer to 15 Watts for the SV Evolution I'm messing with....which makes the power supply a bit easier. Maybe.

But yes, sorry to get confused on the details, just scale everything by 3/2 and it should fit. You still want two gauge sizes less (bigger numbers) to go from 2 cores to 3 with the same turns in each. At that point, very little should be changed. If you had six wires the results would be the same if they were two bunches of three and three bunches of two....at least from a thermodynamics point of view. From a reliability point of view that may not be the case?

OF

 

[OF]

However, in consideration that I have had a coil fail in two cores in such short time, I think indeed there is an advantage to be had in using a thicker gauge of wire.

Three coils of thicker gauge seems like a good path to achieving that. So, none of the TV prototypes you tested, OF, ever bothered to experiment with this principle? Interesting... I wonder why not, since TV must have realized the fragility of the heater, thus the short warranty. For example, my Vapir (although a piece of shit, to be sure), did indeed warrant the ceramic heater against failure for the same duration as the rest of the unit, which I believe was at least one year, and perhaps two or even three.

OK, careful here, lots of what you're thinking is valid, but the logic is wrong. You're asking for thinner wires, not thicker ones, right? You proposal makes for more heaters, and each wound with thinner (and therefore in theory more frail) wire. You loose on both ends reliability wise, more coils, each less reliable. And we still fault out with a single failure.

And BTW, it's a soldering iron, not gun (big difference) and in fact this one (Weller brand) does switch on and off (every minute or two) to hold temperature all day long. "Thermal shock" is not a death sentence to a well designed heater you see, only a poorly designed one. The iron is 48 Watts (2 Amps at 24 Volts) and holds about 20 average (or a bit less) on idle, start using it (like melting solder) and the duty cycle (on time over off time) goes up automatically.

The very point of low voltage is here, shorter runs of heavier wire. Only other trade offs get in the way, we see a fair difference in Evolution and thus far T1 has not 'found' a good solution to LV cores within the other limits. I'm not saying it wasn't tested, I don't know who else does this nor what they do specifically for reasons I'm sure you appreciate. But I am most confident the idea was explored carefully, perhaps long before I came on the seen even? These guys are sharp engineering wise and have a solid business model, I'm sure they've done their homework....at least the part they don't ask me to help with. And also understand the rules say they probably fish me with a proven idea or two from time to time to keep me honest and them calibrated.

How long to warranty an expendable is a fun conversation to have, I've been party to it on several occasions over the years. Take the heater case. They want to be sure there are no manufacturing defects of course, but don't want to force the rest of us to support guys who flat out wear them out as 'power users'. GM is happy to put excellent quality tires on your new car, but since we know they can be burned up in no time the warranty has limits. Likewise the batteries. It's also fun to note how THC handles this same issue??

Also, at a personal level, I figure a $35 core that has vaped say 20 times that value in herbs has earned a retirement? I'd like it to last forever, of course, but I'd have to honestly admit it's not what I see as a big cost. Less even if you have it rebuilt for $15? Not that it's not a good idea to look for better, of course.

OF

 

[Pipes]

I have been playing a bit with windings and IMO a single coil would be best if feasible. I have not had success with my efforts as the coil needs to be too short by the time you get it to the required heat. Thus, the jump to 2 coil and now the heat can be achieved. However, as we know at the expense of battery power. Now 3 windings trying to get the same power and same heat as 2 coil will be a little tricky. Might end up with a real battery killer. Which is why I was wondering on the finial resistance of the 3 coil. If the intent is to improve the longevity of the coil with this approach then might not be the right way to go about it. IMHO, these coils are very robust and should not burn out but rather come loose at some point within the device. Making a 3 coil, will only make more possible points of failure. But never know as I'm sure TV has a method up their sleeve.
I agree thicker is better for longevity of the coil but not for power consumption. A real balancing act for sure.

Pipes

 

[darkrom]

Why not just flat out ask TV why it is they chose 2 cores? As we've been saying lately they choose what is best for the group which any smart business would. Maybe they already did testing and for a wild fake example maybe 3 cores is great, but the device gets too hot to most people, but YOU personally don't mind.

They already did the R&D, just ask them and see what they say. If they say "we don't know we didn't even think of that" then go for it and maybe impress them and us all at the same time. Innovation CAN happen from anyone, but more often than not our genius ideas are flawed in one way or another. That being said this could be the 1 in a million where you came up with an idea is just flat out better in EVERY way, but realistically I bet TV picked 2 cores for some reason based on science and not just because.


That doesn't mean I don't want your random tinkering and "bigger is better" mindset to pay off...I hope you create a monster

 

[PhreedomPhries]

With more coils comes more connections. It really becomes a push. And in the extreme, becomes a negative sometimes.

OF

This is a good point, likewise, OF. And a point I would appreciate clarification from TV on. I inquired by email about what caused the failure in my first core several weeks back, but did not get an answer to that question. I am all that much more interested in knowing what happened to both that coil, as well as this second faulty one. If it was a connection issue, as you mention, then you are certainly correct that adding another coil to the mix will only be like too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak. Just one more connection to go bad. BUT, if, instead, it was the coil burning out, then that speaks to my desire for thicker gauged wire. Really, it just comes down to that simple matter of what caused the failure in both my cores (as well as anybody else's that have failed). And frankly, I have had a hard time chalking it up to two isolated connection failures, because that does not square with the stress tests videos that TV has shown this device to withstand (particularly chucking it down an asphalt parking lot repeatedly without a coil failure), and would essentially come down to a quality control issue. (If their parking lot core could withstand that much jostling, it is clearly a lesser quality connection that was made on two independent cores I have owned). That would be a bit disconcerting, and not what I had wanted to assume.

 

[jambandphan03]

I keep wanting to go back to the spiral coil design (like AR is using) or similar to the car lighter... why is this design being overlooked. I was actually excited when I saw the AR had that style coil. I have been very abusive to my AR compared to any of my other devices, and the heat core is still working... and gets really hot, decent battery life, and covers a broad surface area for heating...

 

[darkrom]

What the hell is AR?

 

[PhreedomPhries]

OK, careful here, lots of what you're thinking is valid, but the logic is wrong. You're asking for thinner wires, not thicker ones, right? You proposal makes for more heaters, and each wound with thinner (and therefore in theory more frail) wire. You loose on both ends reliability wise, more coils, each less reliable. And we still fault out with a single failure.

And BTW, it's a soldering iron, not gun (big difference) and in fact this one (Weller brand) does switch on and off (every minute or two) to hold temperature all day long. "Thermal shock" is not a death sentence to a well designed heater you see, only a poorly designed one. The iron is 48 Watts (2 Amps at 24 Volts) and holds about 20 average (or a bit less) on idle, start using it (like melting solder) and the duty cycle (on time over off time) goes up automatically.


OF

Two things here. First of all, I am in agreement (and previously stated I stand corrected) that what I am indeed asking for is THICKER wire, NOT thinner. Though, as Pipes has mentioned, this will lead to even more energy being drained from the batteries. So, it is a trade off between battery life and durability. But to be clear, I AM requesting a more durable core with three thicker coils, as you previously corrected me.

As for your comparisons to your soldering iron, I still take issue with that logic for the following reason. Your iron, though it cycled on and off, HELD a consistent temperature all day long. (ie, it was not, in that application, exposed to repeated heating and COOLING and then reheating, as is the case with using the TV throughout the course of a day repeatedly).

 

[OF]

Thanks PP but once again we're going to disagree based on our experiences in life. Repeat failures mean several things.....maybe. And call for separate consideration. As does fault analysis in general in such cases. What fails on you (or any other single individual) has to be related back to the general population, often in an abstract manner unfortunately. So called 'root cause' analysis is a PTIA sometimes but a powerful too. And typically proprietary information. Most places I've worked didn't let it out, and the bigger they are (or think they are) the tighter they get with the data. I'm sure you understand why.

In the case at hand a lot of things could cause a spike in failures at the connection points over time. Change in wire (maybe just a new coil), new drill bit for the holes, different bar of stock, change in the press that assembles it or the guy running it, contamination left from different cleanings, new cutters used to trim the ends of the leads and a few dozen that don't come to mind right off can be in play. Or not.

Often single cases are meaningless, it has to be solved statistically with lots of collected data over long times. This stuff 'ain't easy.....or we'd have the janitor do it' as they say.

I understand your natural interest, celebrate it even. And over a few beers sometime would be happy to rattle on about thermal and other shocks, oxidation and corrosion, vibration and resonance and all that good stuff.....but not without the beer.

OF

 

[Pipes]

I keep wanting to go back to the spiral coil design (like AR is using) or similar to the car lighter... why is this design being overlooked. I was actually excited when I saw the AR had that style coil. I have been very abusive to my AR compared to any of my other devices, and the heat core is still working... and gets really hot, decent battery life, and covers a broad surface area for heating...

Oh man, more to look into. Your killing me here. Looks very attractive. The filament must be very thin to get that heat, with modest battery consumption, and brings up the question, how is it secured? That device looks to me like the other end of the scale. Great power wise but can it maintain the heat with air running across it. That's the problem with the other extreme of fine gauge filaments. They cool very easily when you draw air across them. I have never tried this device and wonder if good for huge clouds or for the tasty portion.
Yes for sure it would be nice for TV to explain their reasoning for why they choose what they did, but bottom line is it works and works well for the majority out of the box.
Pipes