1. What does SSTB mean? See our glossary of acronyms.
    Dismiss Notice

The use of PTFE

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by dannydroid, Apr 17, 2018.

  1. dannydroid

    dannydroid Google Nazi

    Messages:
    131
    I wouldn't call it a recall, but they're giving you a choice.

    If you're okay with what they say about the Telfon used, then keep your unit, if you're not okay, they're allowing you a refund. Pretty fair to me.

    You're a legend Stick!
    Will you be posting your finding in this thread?

    Not like it really matters, as they'll be removing it, but its still nice to know.
     
    RUDE BOY likes this.
  2. sammuel

    sammuel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    174
    Dude what the hell? The hundreds/thousands who are going to use it with the tape don't matter? The next production without the tape is what matters?

    I can't wait to see the test, and hopefully he reports that it's safe. At this point, it's the only thing that will put me at ease
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
    patzw, steama and analytika like this.
  3. dannydroid

    dannydroid Google Nazi

    Messages:
    131
    Unless Boundless have done a bate and switch (say its Teflon AP, when its infact "normal" Teflon), it should all be gravy.

    They haven't lied or mislead, simply made a few mistakes when handling the issue. And they're always fixed issues and problems the community has had.

    Cut the guys some slack, it not like they're all start in dark room wondering how to "mess up" next. I mean, they use the same products we do...
     
  4. jdent3

    jdent3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    243
    Just because the Teflon is rated to 360C does not mean that it was meant to be inhaled from at temperatures close to its safety rating. It may be safe at those temperatures to use in industrial applications but it does not mean that it is safe to inhale from directly. I highly doubt it was created with the purpose of being used in direct inhalation devices. It's possible it's safe and it's possible it's not. I am not taking that chance. It is not worth risking your health over a vape. It is good that they are removing it but they should think long and hard before they implement a new solution. There are tons of proven vape designs out there that can be mimicked to create a safe device, no need to start doing something that no other manufacture has done which is to put Teflon on the heating element.
     
  5. Fat Freddy

    Fat Freddy FUCK CANCER TOO !

    Messages:
    1,036
  6. jdent3

    jdent3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    243
    The pdf says this:

    WARNING! VAPORS CAN BE LIBERATED THAT MAY BE
    HAZARDOUS IF INHALED

    So if it does offgas I wouldn't want to inhale what comes off of it.
     
    analytika, steama and Fat Freddy like this.
  7. Fat Freddy

    Fat Freddy FUCK CANCER TOO !

    Messages:
    1,036
    Precisely!

    .
     
    Silver420Surfer, analytika and steama like this.
  8. dannydroid

    dannydroid Google Nazi

    Messages:
    131
    Yes (I posted pretty much the same .pdf not long ago) and it also references you to “Guide to the Safe Handling of Fluoropolymer Resins”, which is to do with working with Fluoropolymer Resins (i.e. moulding it).

    Infact, it even says below in the .pdf you linked:

    Residual gases (including HF, COF2, CO, and HFA) that diffuse from Teflon™ AF resins, even at room temperature, may be harmful. To avoid exposure, all resin containers should be opened and used only in well-ventilated areas using local exhaust ventilation (LEV).

    Telfon PA 1600-2400 is stable up to 527F-680F (still seems to be a bit on confusion on what PA XXXX number they used atm).

    Most of us were originally worried about the use of "normal" Teflon (only "rated" for 392F) in close proximity to a 500F heater.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
    Silver420Surfer, patzw and analytika like this.
  9. Fat Freddy

    Fat Freddy FUCK CANCER TOO !

    Messages:
    1,036
    So at this juncture, inconclusive as our safety concerns may be, how would your degree of concern best be described?

    :hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm:
     
    steama likes this.
  10. dannydroid

    dannydroid Google Nazi

    Messages:
    131
    On a scale to 1-10? 10 being, I'm worried as fuck.

    "Normal" Teflon: 10
    Teflon PA 1XXX: 10
    Teflon PA 2XXX: 5
    Removal of Teflon: 3 (what else don't we know about, and that goes for pretty much any vape that hasn't been medically approved).


    I should note, I've got GAD, I worry about pretty much everything, so me rating things like that isn't really transferable.

    Walking past a busy road, or cooking on a gas hob without proper air flow is more deadly then most things people tend to worry about.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
    patzw, analytika and steama like this.
  11. steama

    steama slightly stoopid

    Messages:
    4,444
    These material issues and problems make me appreciate my little pax 3 that gives me nothing to worry about. I don't need my vape harshing my mellow with any 'foreign taste/odor' whatsoever.

    If I can taste or smell something besides the weed I do not want the vape. Maybe there will be some standards for manufacturers in our industry some day. At least a simple list of do not use materials. Nobody wants to use an unhealthy or questionable vape. I must be honest and admit I do not trust most vape companies. Capitalism even with all the choices is provides our society with a strong motive for manufacturers to drive the devices cost down by cutting corners with cheaper materials, many that should never be used in vapes.

    :2c:
     
  12. Fat Freddy

    Fat Freddy FUCK CANCER TOO !

    Messages:
    1,036
    PTFE FUMES & FATALTIES/INJURIES

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9192951?dopt=Abstract

    And also check out related articles/abstracts in right hand column of PUBMED!

    EDIT: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene

    PFOA
    Main article: Perfluorooctanoic acid
    Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA, or C8) has been used as a surfactant in the emulsion polymerization of PTFE, although several manufacturers have entirely discontinued its use. PFOA persists indefinitely in the environment. It is a toxicant and carcinogen in animals. PFOA has been detected in the blood of more than 98% of the general US population in the low and sub-parts per billion range, and levels are higher in chemical plant employees and surrounding subpopulations. The general population has been exposed to PFOA through massive dumping of C8 waste into the ocean and near the Ohio River Valley.[55][56] PFOA has been detected in industrial waste, stain resistant carpets, carpet cleaning liquids, house dust, microwave popcorn bags, water, food and Teflon cookware.

    As a result of a class-action lawsuit and community settlement with DuPont, three epidemiologists conducted studies on the population surrounding a chemical plant that was exposed to PFOA at levels greater than in the general population. The studies concluded that there was probably an association between PFOA exposure and six health outcomes: kidney cancer, testicular cancer, ulcerative colitis, thyroid disease, hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol), and pregnancy-induced hypertension.[57]

    Overall, PTFE cookware is considered an insignificant exposure pathway to PFOA."

    DUPONT WORKERS SMOKE TEFLON-LACED CIGARETTES IN COMPANY EXPERIMENTS:
    https://www.ewg.org/research/dupont...d-cigarettes-company-experiments#.WtwYZ10pC9c
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  13. stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    5-41-23-113-491-923
    " Humans develop polymer fume fever at an exposure of 0.4 milligrams, 500 times less than the amount that had no effects in dogs. This finding from DuPont raises more questions about the safety of Teflon than it answers, and suggests that humans may be hundreds of times more sensitive than animals to a range of toxic Teflon byproducts. "

    400 micros ( millionths of a gram ) of pyrolized PTFE .

    Fluoropolymers are not an ideal family of materials to be used on/in a vaporizer device.
    Materials like PTFE ( "Teflon" ) ,FKM ( "Viton" ) and others of the same family
    of Carbon-Fluorine polymers are not to be considered totally safe .
    Because ,under certain circumstances ,can pose serious health hazards.

    Vaporizer material safety is an issue.
    A serious one.
    And at the moment there are no official safety standards set - to be met ,
    at least as far as I'm aware .

    A vaporizer is a device that processes atmospheric air
    -enriches the atm. air with heat extracted substances -
    into an effective aerosol with the final purpose of inhalation by humans.
    Thus ,any vaporizer device should be manufactured under the same
    strict standards and directives like the rest of medical devices are,
    no matter if it is latter to be approved as one or not.

    There's a vast list of materials that can pose health issues and/or hazards.
    Be quite sure -at least I am -that quite a few of these materials are being
    used and are to be found ,even at the most famous and/or high quality vaporizers.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Vaporizing is an ascending trend.
    More an more people revert to this method ,for consuming mainly herbal cannabis or
    various forms of it's extracts.
    The increased demand attracts business interest .
    New brands and new devices will keep popping up ,like mushrooms.
    But there are none officially established conditions and guidances about vaporizing device safety.
    Thing is that only few of them can be really considered as (safe) vaporizing devices.
    Most of them are exactly what their manufacturers sell them as to be .
    "Aromatotherapy devices" or even " Air heaters ".
    Terms established long ago before the -relatively recent -FDA & EU laws about smoking & vaporizing devices . ;)

    Quite oftenly a well known disclaimer notice is following :
    " Caution :This is not a medical device ,neither is meant to be used as such . "
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    An ideal ( medical grade at it's tops )
    vaporizer would filter out even the atmospheric air and load contaminants like -but not limited to : SOx gases ,CO ,NOx gases,PM10 & PM2.5 particles ,PAHs,VOCs from herbicides ,fungicides & pesticides .

    A more realistic ( and more affordable ) approach would be that the vaporizing device should not contaminate further the final aerosol,under any possible conditions.
    Let all the contamination be that of the ambient atmospheric air and of the particular load used.
    A 100% inert device.
    Neither simple or easy to be achieved ,actually.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  14. dannydroid

    dannydroid Google Nazi

    Messages:
    131
    @Fat Freddy those are again to do with working with Telfon. When heating Telfon to be remoulded (above 500-600F depending on what Telfon is used) it releases "toxins" (much like plastic).

    There's a difference between preparing a telfon part, and using the cured part.

    Teflon = not ideal, but then again, so is the use of [some] plastics.
     
    steama likes this.
  15. sammuel

    sammuel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    174
  16. Fat Freddy

    Fat Freddy FUCK CANCER TOO !

    Messages:
    1,036
    FOR CONSIDERATION: From a cursory review of PTFE (PTFE = Polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon) tape manufacturers, the upper operating temperature of PTFE tape seems to be 500 degrees Fahrenheit, listed fairly consistently from one manufacturer to the next.


    .
     
    steama likes this.
  17. analytika

    analytika Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    231
    Location:
    San Francisco, California
    invertedisdead, Fat Freddy and steama like this.
  18. steama

    steama slightly stoopid

    Messages:
    4,444
    Everyone needs to read this article! Thank you so much @Fat Freddy. I have known PTFE was bad but the information you shared changes everything about the way I look at our corporations and how they see people. TERRIFYING SHIT especially considering DUPONT has had full knowledge of the dangers of PTFE and still allowed people to be poisoned with it. The fact DUPONT deliberately poisoned people as laboratory test rats speaks volumes of what people are worth to these evil capitalist corporate bastards.

    :myday:
     
  19. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

    Messages:
    12,132
    Hey guys...I've got some Tera testing to report.

    The Teflon AF has a max rating of 360C, and ptfe has a max rating of 250C...clearly different materials.

    On concentrate mode, the Tera's inner heater spiked to 319C on initial heat up and immediately dropped to a stabilization range of 280C to 295C. Heavy draws caused the temp to drop, and the Tera didn't overcompensate with over heating. So my Tera reached max continuous operation temps that were at least 65C lower than the max rating for Teflon AF. Puffitup and PlanetoftheVapes have both resumed shipping Teras.

    All of my temp testing was done in concentrate mode with a temp probe fished about 3 to 4 mm into the heater from the top. I can't tell exactly where it was inside, but based on the quick response I'm confident I got it on the inner heater, probably above the teflon. The Tera's heating pattern is consistent...it spikes above the set temp on the initial heat up and then stabilizes below that for the duration of the session.

    For reference, ptfe has been used in the minivap for around 10 years and, in my mind, is one of the safest vapes out there due to its lab testing. According to at least one manufacturer, ptfe can actually withstand about 30C higher temps than rated. Minivaps are calibrated to 230C max temp to avoid any issue - a 20C buffer based on the rating, and a 50C buffer based on manufacturer comments. I don't know if Teflon AF also has this head room or not, but I thought the info on ptfe would be good to know as you're evaluating the safety of Teflon AF in the Tera and potentially other vapes.
     
    KeroZen, patzw, Alegre and 8 others like this.
  20. sammuel

    sammuel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    174
    Thanks for the report. :leaf:
    I hope it's safe because I don't want to send back the new one once I receive it, so it's comforting to know your results and about the minivap. Howeverrr
    You tested the supposedly max temperature the device reaches, making sure it doesn't reach melting point, which is good to know... with that said, how would we know that it doesn't start off gassing at a lower temperature, i.e. before it starts to actually melt, same as PTFE does(?) and do you reckon that the Minivap's use of Teflon is comparable with the Tera's? In the Minivap the Teflon part is the chamber, not inside the actual heater like in the Tera... Thoughts?
     
    Fat Freddy likes this.
  21. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

    Messages:
    12,132
    There is a ptfe sleeve that encloses the entire heat exchanger in the minivap, similar to how the AF is installed in the Tera.
     
    sammuel likes this.
  22. sammuel

    sammuel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    174
    Cool :tup: Thank you :D!
     
  23. analytika

    analytika Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    231
    Location:
    San Francisco, California
    The "maximum continuous use" temperature is an:

    **inflection point for the acceleration of off gassing**

    not a floor.

    There is significant offgassing of toxics at lower temperatures, albeit at lower levels.

    By the time you reach the maximum continuous use temperature, tenths of a percent of the entire body of material (per hour) covert to gaseous form. For some use cases, that might impact the structural integrity of the Teflon application.

    Does this have anything to do with medical safety in a restricted airflow inhalation apparatus at temperature?

    Likely NOTHING.

    Dupont doesn't say that it's safe in such an application, at any temperature.

    Their industry associations (to which they publicly defer on inhalation risks) don't say that either.

    I'm seeing corporate reps and their boosters saying "___________, that means it's safe". Sorry, fill in the blank however you'd like, there's no good reason to believe that. Certainly nothing official from Dupont or its agents.

    I continue to find it worrisome that Teflon Flu has symptoms not uncommon among cannabis users.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  24. sammuel

    sammuel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    174
    What's your thought on mentioned use of Teflon in the Minivap? I think someone mentioned that it was tested safe there?
     
  25. analytika

    analytika Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    231
    Location:
    San Francisco, California
    This Thread is mislabeled.

    The discussion is regarding Teflon, which is a brand name of E. I. du Pont de Nemours and Company for a whole family of products with related characteristics, many of which have no relationship to PTFE.

    That would include Teflon AF, a PTFE free product, discussion of which in another thread prompted the creation of this one, and relocation of postings.
     
    Ozyzj and patzw like this.

Support FC, visit our trusted friends and sponsors