The Religion Thread

[syrupy]

Such sport! Got over a few silly ideas and religion finally made sense.

First silly idea - we can know something, anything about God. Agnostics + 1.

I felt this way for many years...that God was unknowable, unfathomable to humans. Later perception changed, and a new type of perception came online. One can say that they do not know God, but it's not accurate to say no one can.

Second silly idea - we don't really die. Obvious wish fulfillment.

Definitely wish fulfillment for the ego. From another perspective, there is some part that is always untouched by death, and birth. To get to where death doesn't exist, birth can't either.

Third silly idea - God loves us, or even notices us. Search for "God does not love us back." Surprisingly few hits. The world's major religions are founded on the premise that God loves us. What a silly idea! The creator of the universe cares deeply for a few billion talking apes crawling around on a speck of dust somewhere? Problem of evil: solved.

The entirety of creation, like any creative act, is an expression of love. As the creator, how could God ever NOT notice us, being the ultimate awareness? I think this belief comes from "if God loved us, all these horrible things wouldn't be, and I wouldn't feel this pain" It's projecting human desires on God, who has a different agenda altogether.

Of course, we can still love God. For the brief time that we exist, we can join in the universal song of praise.

Which takes me to your point #1. If we can't know anything about God, how could we love God?

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Touché, syrupy! Only point was that we need to get over our pride before we can think about God. Accept that we are no more or less than we appear to be.

 

[gangababa]

Read this essay at Religion News Service (religionnews.com)

Here Brian McLaren, a former Evangelical pastor who used to be an activist for the Christian Right, has written a critic of Christian support for Trump.

"...20 years as an evangelical pastor, and the more deeply I engaged with the life and teaching of Jesus at the heart of my faith, the less enamored I became with the political project to which evangelicalism was giving its soul."

“Too many conservative leaders have become increasingly disrespectful to the point of being rude, crude and mean-spirited,” he writes. “It’s become impossible to ignore — from Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., shouting ‘You lie!’ during the president’s State of the Union address to Donald Trump reaching historic lows with name-calling, crude insults, genital braggadocio, and violent rhetoric.
I can’t support regressive thinking that longs for a time when life was worse for nearly everybody except people like me.” (ganga baba emphasis added)

“I cannot support any party or candidate — local, state, federal or presidential — characterized by mean-spiritedness, bigotry, unfairness, carelessness toward the poor, funneling wealth to the richest, undermining abortion reduction, destroying our fragile planet, playing into the hands of terrorists, exploiting the anger of suffering people, and being driven more by the love of power than the power of love.”

"Today’s conservatives support a frightening array of proposals that go against our Constitution’s call for “equal protection”: (ganga baba emphasis added) banning people from entering the country based on religion, mass surveillance of communities based on religion and creating registries of people based on religion. "

"Conservatives often complain that liberals want to transfer wealth, but the fact is, for decades conservatives have supported a massive transfer of wealth to those who need it least. They have long promised that if we just help the rich through tax cuts, deregulation, and undermining worker rights, the benefits would “trickle down” to the rest of us. When I was younger, I was naive enough to believe this kind of voodoo economics, (ganga baba emphasis added) but with age I’ve come to see that all that actually trickles down is a toxic slurry of pollution, unemployment, crumbling infrastructure and economic inequality that is pummeling Americans, regardless of race or religion."

 

[Silat]

I believe in Beatles................

Atheist.

 

[gangababa]

Beetles out number sheep and what does that say about God's priorities?
God puts a lot more weight in them as populations go?

 

[Krazy]

Their is still time!

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=di....com/people/ug/goldenmonkey/cthulhutract.html

 

[BD9]

I believe in Beatles................

Atheist.

I believe in Dog.

Dyslexic

 

[grokit]

 

[gangababa]

I believe there is naught but "Inside"

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

A parable for the Church of Love, Unrequited.

You have a crush on Scarlet Johansson. Rejoice, for it is healthy! Be not disappointed when she answers not your calls. For Scarlet Johansson is a talking ape, more like you than God.

When do I get to start taking contributions?

 

[gangababa]

A parable for the Church of Love, Unrequited.
..
When do I get to start taking contributions?

I do not know, however you have made contribution.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Great dhoti, BTW, gangababa. Those things are a bitch to tie securely. What's your secret?

 

[gangababa]

Great dhoti, BTW, gangababa. Those things are a bitch to tie securely. What's your secret?

A daily prayer to the Supreme that I be free of both false belief and naked embarrassment.
Cotton, not silk.
I roll the waist to secure the cloth, rather than tying knots.
A life of spiritual progress is a life of untying the fetters that seemingly bind us.

When people ask, why the dress?, I say I am wearing my yoga clothes.
But, I see you wearing that all of the time, I am asked?
Yoga is a lifestyle, not an activity , I reply.

For those seeking more understanding, I talk about the wrappers of identity by which we, each of us, accessorize our our self; desires, habits, interests, aversions, preferences, fashion, style, personality, beliefs, more.

Wrapping a dhoti rather than dressing in dungarees is a daily reminder that the 'Truth' of the self-evident "I", is not to be found in any of the discardable identity-wrappers usually thought to constitute the nature of "Self".

 

[grokit]

I believe there is naught but "Inside"

Have you heard george carlin speak of "received realities"?

 

[Silat]

Never ever a believer but if I was:
SATAN AS HERO
"The devil gave humans critical thinking which god didn't want us to have.
God wanted us to not eat from the tree of knowledge so we could be thought-slaves for eternity, but the devil did us a favor and turned the tables with a single conversation.
The devil killed a grand total of 10 people in the bible, while god killed somewhere around 2.3 million. And that is just in the bible. Many billions more have died since the sheepherders wrote the book.
He understands human nature but doesn't judge YOU for being Human.
He accepts god's unwanted children unconditionally.
And yet, he is the dickhead. Why? Because he can take it.

Because he is not our hero.

He's our silent guardian.
A watchful protector.

A DARK KNIGHT."

"Satan was a freethinker. Beaten and banned from heaven by Cod as a warning against all who would follow in his footsteps and actually use their own mind.

I always wondered how Satan gets blamed for all the bad in the world, when Cod is the all powerful, all knowing creator of all. Shouldn't the one who has the power and knowledge be the one to blame, not the one who was powerless and beaten down. Just wondering."


/s

 

[yogoshio]

I am fairly well versed in biblical history. I am an Orthodox Christian. Converted when I was about 13. The gospel of judas wasn't "left out" btw. It was written around the 400s, about 70 years after a council approved the standard bible (except what Luther took out in the reformation). There are a'most two dozen read epistles that were actually left out (ie, were read by Christians but not universally read and/or dealt with incredibly specific issues that were no longer relevant, like certain political issues, etc.)

Also, there are many, many scholars who believe Mohammad himself made changes to the Quran. Muslim scholars specifically.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22828.0

 

[grokit]

"He's testing our faith" is one trope offered repeatedly.
There are many others to chose from.

Our world is in complete turmoil, and with few exceptions it always has been.
For this reason, I have a hard time with monotheism.
The Gods are at war with each other; they are bored and this is their nature.
Meanwhile mortals live and die while we spin around in space.
Round and round we go, time is a circle.
It's also a face on the water.
Ka-tet!

 

[Silat]

I am fairly well versed in biblical history. I am an Orthodox Christian. Converted when I was about 13. The gospel of judas wasn't "left out" btw. It was written around the 400s, about 70 years after a council approved the standard bible (except what Luther took out in the reformation). There are a'most two dozen read epistles that were actually left out (ie, were read by Christians but not universally read and/or dealt with incredibly specific issues that were no longer relevant, like certain political issues, etc.)

Also, there are many, many scholars who believe Mohammad himself made changes to the Quran. Muslim scholars specifically.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22828.0

Wasn't it 14 books that did not make the cut?
So the Gospels of Mary were not relevant?
Oh, wait. They were relevant but the boys did not want women to have power.

 

[gangababa]

Have you heard george carlin speak of "received realities"?

No, I am not familiar with this Carlin meme.

Received realities seem to me to be the reality of every one's experience.
As consciousness, we are born into a received (given) gender, family, time and place.
Each sentient baby being begins receiving instruction about the world (jagat) and about one's self from birth.
We are told what's what.

Our understanding of self and not-self is all received knowledge or programing or subtle hypnosis.
It is the nature of our matter that we have primary pramanas (means of knowledge) in the five senses.
When there are no impediments to our senses (bad light, blocked ears, stuffed nose, etc), we accept that we have gained direct knowledge of the jagat. There is a buzzing bee on the fragrant blue lily growing in the cold sweet water.

How much of what anyone knows is the result of direct knowledge?
Almost all accepted (received) knowledge is based in having been told, 'this is reality'; or is the result of inference (whether one step or many).
Inferences are not always logical. Political talk demonstrates this (and religious talk too).

There is one reality, however, that is self-evident, requires no supporting proof, can not be known by the five senses, but must be there if any 'reality' is to be known.
This truth, this center of the known world, is known to all as "I am", and is not received knowledge.
The "I am" must be there before any 'what I am' knowledge (fact or fiction) can be received.

"I am" is the understanding, the stands under, the power or presence of existent awareness.
Whenever and wherever one explores within the local jagat, the farthest cosmos, the nearest hidden depths of the deepest unconscious in human psychology, one finds that consciousness is always there.

If another says, I have found a jagat without consciousness, I will say not so because your consciousness had to go and be there to know that jagat.
Exploring as far and wide or as minutely close as possible, one discovers that the limits of 'existent-awareness' can not be found.

 

[grokit]

Reality could also be a consensus fairy tale, where we collectively fill in the blanks of our limited perception.

Carlin's point is that we need the tools and freedom to conceive our own reality, in our own lifetime. He uses the official 9-11 commission story as one example of a "top down" (literally ) reality, conceived by the elites that want to go to war, packaged neatly for the masses. Then he uses christianity as another.

 

[yogoshio]

Wasn't it 14 books that did not make the cut?
So the Gospels of Mary were not relevant?
Oh, wait. They were relevant but the boys did not want women to have power.

Quite the opposite. The Orthodox church uses the gospel of Mary as a source of truth, and in fact celebrates multiple feast days in her honor throughout the year based on the Protoevangelion.

Also, Christianity before it was adulterated by western humanism actually drew women and slaves first, because before that women were never seen as equals. Emperor Constantine's mother converted before he did because of the empowerment Christianity gave women in Byzantine society. Women in Christianity were allowed the role of deaconesses, and it was the Muslim takeover of the middle east that stopped that tradition in those parts of the world. There is a letter from a Roman senator I believe that he wrote to his pregnant wife saying if its a boy throw a party, if its a girl toss it in the trash. That was always abhorrent to Christian culture.

Some of the most celebrated saints are the Mother of God, St. Mary of Egypt, St. Priscilla, St. Helen. Women have been propped up as Godly examples within Christianity and had leadership roles since the start. Most the anti-women stances were cultural subversion either from Muslim domination or political manipulation.

The bible when it was originally compiled was never, ever meant to be a standalone piece of truth and the be all end all of Christianity. It was only used as a general guide for liturgical readings, not a one stop shop for doctrine. That came about much later after papal abuses pissed off the merchant class in the west.

 

[Silat]

Also, Christianity before it was adulterated by western humanism actually drew women and slaves first, because before that women were never seen as equals.

I hate to break it to you but christianity in general does not see women as equals.

 

[yogoshio]

That's bullshit. Protestant maybe, but look at the writings of John Chrysostom, Basil the Great, Ephraim the Syrian. They all talk about the equality of the sexes. Many discuss the superiority of women because it was a woman who bore Christ. Different roles perhaps depending on the time frame of the writings, but when it comes to responsibility, to rights within social contracts, to importance in salvation even.

If there has ever been push towards unequal standards, that does not originate within the truth of Christianity. Maybe bastardization of it, or more frequently from political and social pressure, but not within writings, practice, or history of Orthodox doctrine.

 

[grokit]

I get a kick out of this show.
Here's where schizophrenia meets religion


"Mr. Robot has become my God, and like all Gods their madness takes you prisoner."

(in bible study): “Is that what God does? He helps? Tell me, why didn't God help my innocent friend who died for no reason while the guilty run free? OK. Fine. Forget the one-offs. How about the countless wars declared in His name? OK. Fine. Let's skip the random, meaningless murder for a second, shall we? How about the racist, sexist, phobia soup we've all been drowning in because of Him? And I'm not just talking about Jesus. I'm talking about all organized religion. Exclusive groups created to manage control. A dealer getting people hooked on the drug of hope. His followers, nothing but addicts who want their hit of bullshit to keep their dopamine of ignorance. Addicts. Afraid to believe the truth. That there's no order. There's no power. That all religions are just metastasizing mind worms meant to divide us so it's easier to rule us by the charlatans that wanna run us. All we are to them are paying fanboys of their poorly written sci-fi franchise. If I don't listen to my imaginary friend, why the fuck should I listen to yours? People think their worship is some key to happiness. That's just how He owns you. Even I'm not crazy enough to believe that distortion of reality. So fuck God. He's not a good enough scapegoat for me.”

(internally): “Please tell me I didn’t say all of that out loud. Shit, I did.”

~ Elliot Alderson​

​

 

[gangababa]

Reality could also be a consensus fairy tale, where we collectively fill in the blanks of our limited perception....

Agreed.
Reality as we believe it, collectively and individually, is a consensus of senses and non-senses.
Cultures teach those within what the world without is; teach preferences and aversions.
So, sun circles the earth until consensus changes. Gods live in the Heavens until consensus changes.
Skittles need skedaddle until consensus changes.

Social consensus can change my thinking and behavior, but never my self-evident-existence as awareness.
The what-it-is stuff of which one is aware may come and go, but the existent-sentient witness of awareness (of stuff) remains when the stuff goes (deep sleep).

The only reason to have Religion is to know this existent-awareness (while discarding the 'knower' as an identity wrapper), also as though to cognitively and behaviorally remove all egoic mistakes that arise from and reinforce false identities, born of the "I not-I" conflation, causing confusion and proliferating pain.