The Nomad From Morwood
- Thread starter Dan Morrison
- Start date
VaporSipper
Well-Known Member
I just meant a simple potentiometer on the voltage line to "regulate" the power going to the heater. Is that too far off the mechanical nature of the unit? Something you would adjust once, with a screwdriver, to your liking and leave it alone from then on. No electronics.
DarkSm0ke
Well-Known Member
I just meant a simple potentiometer on the voltage line to "regulate" the power going to the heater. Is that too far off the mechanical nature of the unit? Something you would adjust once, with a screwdriver, to your liking and leave it alone from then on. No electronics.
Yeah this option would be cool, so as your battery started to deplete you could "open it up" to get more juice to the heater, or "close it down" if you are unable to have enough of a draw speed to keep up with the heater (especially with fully charged battery.
GreenHopper
20 going on 60
Gotcha, yes I'd definitely prefer to have a heater that is a little overpowered than underpowered. Especially as I can employ the feathering technique to bring it under.
Also thanks for responding man, I'm so massively impressed by how much time you take to interact with the community. Not many would have the patience to walk through ideas and concepts like you have
Holy shit this has thrown me through a loop. I don't know if I want the XL or the normal. I've just spent the last 15min arguing with myself trying to justify both. I can't, I just can't.
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@VaporSipper Regulation is more complicated than that though. Those little pot boxes can't handle 10A being run through them without other circuitry. If it could be that simple we'd see the ecig community using this kind of thing all the time.
I'm still firmly in the 18650 camp, because capacity can always be increased by carrying more batteries but the size can never be decreased if the battery standard is bigger. If a single 18650 isn't enough for a day, then I'll swap it. If I'm burning through many batteries a day I'm carrying around a stash/stir tools etc with me anyways so I don't see carrying more batteries as an issue.
That said, I'm totally into more options so I'm eager to see what results we see from the bigger units when you end up making them.
As for heater tuning, I prefer a hotter tuned heater. It's easy to lay off the button or feather it to get your desired temp if the heater is too hot to hold down the button, but if holding down the button doesn't get you enough heat, you're out of luck. So while a hotter tuned heater may take more finesse for lower temps, it also provides a much wider range of temps and is much more versatile. But again, more options are better, so I'm really excited to see all the differently tuned heater modules you come up with.
I'm still firmly in the 18650 camp, because capacity can always be increased by carrying more batteries but the size can never be decreased if the battery standard is bigger. If a single 18650 isn't enough for a day, then I'll swap it. If I'm burning through many batteries a day I'm carrying around a stash/stir tools etc with me anyways so I don't see carrying more batteries as an issue.
That said, I'm totally into more options so I'm eager to see what results we see from the bigger units when you end up making them.
As for heater tuning, I prefer a hotter tuned heater. It's easy to lay off the button or feather it to get your desired temp if the heater is too hot to hold down the button, but if holding down the button doesn't get you enough heat, you're out of luck. So while a hotter tuned heater may take more finesse for lower temps, it also provides a much wider range of temps and is much more versatile. But again, more options are better, so I'm really excited to see all the differently tuned heater modules you come up with.
KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
You would need a trimmer able to dissipate a lot of power. The one listed above can only do 0.75W for instance. So you would need something way larger with a proper heatsink.
With the heater resistance values that Dan hinted (between 0.5 and 0.6ohm) we'll be closer to 7-8A in practice on a fully charged cell.
If say the heater was 0.5ohm and you wanted to drop 0.1ohm with your trimmer, the current through the circuit would be 7A on a fully charged cell at 4.2V. Being in series the trimmer would have 7A through it. It would drop the voltage by only 0.7V but that's already close to 5W to dissipate.
It is possible but basically you would end up with two heaters. One heating your load and the other heating your hand and the vape, and basically just wasting energy. As @ZC said this is not the proper way to do.
With the heater resistance values that Dan hinted (between 0.5 and 0.6ohm) we'll be closer to 7-8A in practice on a fully charged cell.
If say the heater was 0.5ohm and you wanted to drop 0.1ohm with your trimmer, the current through the circuit would be 7A on a fully charged cell at 4.2V. Being in series the trimmer would have 7A through it. It would drop the voltage by only 0.7V but that's already close to 5W to dissipate.
It is possible but basically you would end up with two heaters. One heating your load and the other heating your hand and the vape, and basically just wasting energy. As @ZC said this is not the proper way to do.
VaporSipper
Well-Known Member
Got it! Thanks for the explanation. The picture above was just for reference, not a specific recommendation. But I get it that this would not be the way to go for this application.
vapen00b
Many vapes & accessories. Always happy to help
14mm is totally cool with me. I have a milaana and supposedly a zion coming to meet my 18mm "needs". For 14mm, I have held off on the very intriguing tubo evic so as to better prepare ($) for this one.
Maybe I got you wrong but the tubo is 18mm too. And it's worth getting it also
RelaxedNow
Well-Known Member
I'm in agreement with regard to @ZC's comments on battery choice, as well as a hotter heater. I have to feather my Mistvape Touch, and like that there's no shortage of heat. Scorching is a possibility, but not difficult to avoid.
I also like the concept of a regulation module, as I'm loving my Tubo Evic.
This could offer incredible versatility for one device; regulated, unregulated, flowers, concentrate, 18650, 21700. Wow!
Normally, I'd be afraid that trying to accomplish all this would make it a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none, but it seems with separate modules for each purpose, that shouldn't really be a concern.
stickstones
Vapor concierge
I'm not a fan of NiChr wire for our purposes. I recently got to do a true side-by-side test of NiChr/Kanthal/SS in some concentrate pens and the taste differences were quite pronounced. NiChr tasted bad, Kanthal tasted weird, and SS tasted pure after the first hit. The weakness in the test is that it was a single temp pen, so I can only assume that the temp used was higher than what we are doing with dry herbs, but everything else was identical except the wire composition. The NiChr might not taste bad at our lower temps. I am expecting to be able to compare SS and NiChr side-by-side for dry herb purposes within the next month and will let you know how it goes when I get it.
But all things considered equal, I will always choose SS and won't get excited about NiChr.
But all things considered equal, I will always choose SS and won't get excited about NiChr.
Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
Yeah the original regulated MistVape used nichrome and the unregulated Touch uses SS, and I found the taste with SS much much more pure. I do taste steel sometimes with Tubo
marduk
daydreamer
@Dan Morrison I see a lot of SS316L flat ribbon wire out there... if the issue is that you can't get wire that's wide enough for your heater design, would laying out multiple pieces of wire side by side to get the width you need and then soldering just the ends together before applying the "wave" work? Or would that totally screw up the electrical specs?
KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
Not all steels are created equal. In wire form meant for vaping we got quite a lot to choose from already. If you can taste or smell it, then some qualities might be better than others. Personally, I can smell some SS heaters when they run blank sometimes, but not always. I don't taste that smell when vaping though.
I tried some flat SS ribbon once but it was a pain to work with, way too much springiness. Apart from coils I wasn't able to make it hold any other form.
As for NiChrome, I told Dan the other day that it was bound to happen, and Sticks did it! Heh!
@stickstones : in your pen vapes, is the concentrate in direct contact with the coil(s)?
To answer @marduk, one advantage of NiChrome is that you can roll it tight without shorting. If Dan were to make the same heater geometry we saw out of SS, it would be really hard to prevent shorts.
But Dan already has some SS heaters options in his sleeve, don't worry!
I tried some flat SS ribbon once but it was a pain to work with, way too much springiness. Apart from coils I wasn't able to make it hold any other form.
As for NiChrome, I told Dan the other day that it was bound to happen, and Sticks did it! Heh!
@stickstones : in your pen vapes, is the concentrate in direct contact with the coil(s)?
To answer @marduk, one advantage of NiChrome is that you can roll it tight without shorting. If Dan were to make the same heater geometry we saw out of SS, it would be really hard to prevent shorts.
But Dan already has some SS heaters options in his sleeve, don't worry!
marduk
daydreamer
Ah... I should have known it wouldn't be that simple!
stickstones
Vapor concierge
KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
Interesting thanks.
Seems many people came to the same conclusion in the e-cig world and moved to SS or Ti.
But in both cases, the coil is in direct contact with the product to be vaporized. The question is: is that contact creating some sort of contamination/interaction, or do these coils really create a bad smell/taste on their own, even when just heating air?
That's something the first beta testers will have to figure out.
I also prefer SS myself but I haven't done enough comparisons to really know which grade I prefer. So far I liked SS304 AISI and SS316L, but there are many other candidates. Some are interesting because they need longer coils to give the same resistance, so you end up with more surface area.
Seems many people came to the same conclusion in the e-cig world and moved to SS or Ti.
But in both cases, the coil is in direct contact with the product to be vaporized. The question is: is that contact creating some sort of contamination/interaction, or do these coils really create a bad smell/taste on their own, even when just heating air?
That's something the first beta testers will have to figure out.
I also prefer SS myself but I haven't done enough comparisons to really know which grade I prefer. So far I liked SS304 AISI and SS316L, but there are many other candidates. Some are interesting because they need longer coils to give the same resistance, so you end up with more surface area.
grokit
well-worn member
I don't know much/have no experience with concentrates/atomizers, but I researched the dr. dabber ghost and aurora vape pens yesterday by reading a couple of reviews about them so I'm an expert now 
Seriously, I hope this makes sense to the experts out there (please feel free to correct any wrongs), as I didn't know any of this stuff yesterday. So maybe there's others out there as clueless as I was
According to the vape critic, "high resistance titanium wire, wrapped evenly around a high-quality wick" is one of the best/safest ways to go. Conversely, in the aurora review by the cannabist, they pointed out that one of the included atomizers was decidedly not the way to go, as the broken edges around their low-quality ceramic wicks* can cause silicosis which sounds quite unpleasant. The aurora also includes what appears to be the best of all atomizers, quartz rods. The consensus seems to be that ti is the best heating wire while quartz is best for wicking, with ss and the glass(?) fibers coming in as pretty acceptable alternatives.
I ordered a ghost because it came with two ti/fiber atomizers, but the quartz setup on the aurora does seem very nice. And of course another reason is again to save the duckets toward whatever's going on here.
According to "dr. dabber":
The "worst":
Here’s an extreme close-up of the ceramic wicks. "If you’re worried about silicosis, broken edges don’t inspire confidence." (Chris Thomas, The Cannabist)
Now for the "best":
"At the bottom of the chamber there are 2 quartz rods wrapped in a titanium wire coil, and honestly I think this style is the sexiest looking of them all." It’s [vape critic's] "favorite one to use":
Finally here's what I ended up with for now, two of these which seem to be "second best":
Seriously, I hope this makes sense to the experts out there (please feel free to correct any wrongs), as I didn't know any of this stuff yesterday. So maybe there's others out there as clueless as I was
According to the vape critic, "high resistance titanium wire, wrapped evenly around a high-quality wick" is one of the best/safest ways to go. Conversely, in the aurora review by the cannabist, they pointed out that one of the included atomizers was decidedly not the way to go, as the broken edges around their low-quality ceramic wicks* can cause silicosis which sounds quite unpleasant. The aurora also includes what appears to be the best of all atomizers, quartz rods. The consensus seems to be that ti is the best heating wire while quartz is best for wicking, with ss and the glass(?) fibers coming in as pretty acceptable alternatives.
I ordered a ghost because it came with two ti/fiber atomizers, but the quartz setup on the aurora does seem very nice. And of course another reason is again to save the duckets toward whatever's going on here.
According to "dr. dabber":
- Dual Quartz Rod with Quartz Dish: Suitable for lower viscosity oils
- Dual Ceramic Rod with Quartz Dish: Suitable for waxier oils
- Ceramic Halo Heater with Quart Dish: Suitable for higher viscosity oils
The "worst":
Here’s an extreme close-up of the ceramic wicks. "If you’re worried about silicosis, broken edges don’t inspire confidence." (Chris Thomas, The Cannabist)
Now for the "best":
"At the bottom of the chamber there are 2 quartz rods wrapped in a titanium wire coil, and honestly I think this style is the sexiest looking of them all." It’s [vape critic's] "favorite one to use":
Finally here's what I ended up with for now, two of these which seem to be "second best":
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Marihuana
Iso Tensei
One thing could be important for the design of any means of concentrate vaporization: an internal multi-channel carb that could stir the melted oil across the dish evenly. Gordo Scientific's Riptide carb caps do just the thing, and I believe that a similar design could be used to maximize the amount of vapor users get at low temperatures.
It looks like this:
It looks like this:
SamuraiSam
Extraction Technician
I cannot fathom why a high resistance titanium wire would be preferred over a low resistance wire. A higher resistance wire requires more power from the battery and will undergo a greater voltage drop across the load compared to a lower resistance wire (which consequently requires more amperage to sustain power output).I don't know much/have no experience with concentrates/atomizers, but I researched the dr. dabber ghost and aurora vape pens yesterday by reading a couple of reviews about them so I'm an expert now
Seriously, I hope this makes sense to the experts out there (please feel free to correct any wrongs), as I didn't know any of this stuff yesterday. So maybe there's others out there as clueless as I was
According to the vape critic, "high resistance titanium wire, wrapped evenly around a high-quality wick" is one of the best/safest ways to go. Conversely, in the aurora review by the cannabist, they pointed out that one of the included atomizers was decidedly not the way to go, as the broken edges around their low-quality ceramic wicks* can cause silicosis which sounds quite unpleasant. The aurora also includes what appears to be the best of all atomizers, quartz rods. The consensus seems to be that ti is the best heating wire while quartz is best for wicking, with ss and the glass(?) fibers coming in as pretty acceptable alternatives.
I ordered a ghost because it came with two ti/fiber atomizers, but the quartz setup on the aurora does seem very nice. And of course another reason is again to save the duckets toward whatever's going on here.
According to "dr. dabber":
- Dual Quartz Rod with Quartz Dish: Suitable for lower viscosity oils
- Dual Ceramic Rod with Quartz Dish: Suitable for waxier oils
*But again with the warning regarding the dual-ceramic rod setup:
- Ceramic Halo Heater with Quart Dish: Suitable for higher viscosity oils
The "worst":
Here’s an extreme close-up of the ceramic wicks. "If you’re worried about silicosis, broken edges don’t inspire confidence." (Chris Thomas, The Cannabist)
Now for the "best":
"At the bottom of the chamber there are 2 quartz rods wrapped in a titanium wire coil, and honestly I think this style is the sexiest looking of them all." It’s [vape critic's] "favorite one to use":
Finally here's what I ended up with for now, two of these which seem to be "second best":
When examining the difference between a high and low resistance wire, it is plain to see what is responsible for the resistance difference: it is quite simply the cross section on the wire. A larger diameter pipe is a larger conduit in which electrons may flow, and thus the lower resistance to electron flow. Smaller diameter wires provide a greater resistance to electron flow- just like a garden hose has more restriction than a fire hose.
The physical size of the wire has a great effect on a few factors. One being that for a given material, a larger diameter wire is stronger. It doesn't break as easily when a tool contacts it, it's more likely to bend then break in the event it gets deformed, and heat cycling over time will break the thinner wire first.
The second benefit of using a larger diameter wire is that it increases the surface area in contact with oil. A thicker wire can be wrapped many more times around the wick. All those wraps are more length of wire that's heating. The greater heating mass means that oil vaporization is more uniform than when a smaller amount of wire is heated.
The downside to using a greater mass of metal is that more energy is required to heat it, and more energy is required to cool it. The battery and circuitry of the vape takes care of the first part, but that greater mass will remain hot, causing thermal degradation of oils nearby (and potential leakage depending on the airflow of the heater). The best solution I am aware of for coil wire heaters is to design the heater with air flowing across the coil. this improves vapor production at all temperatures and seems to allow for vapor at a lower wire temperature compared to sipping vapor out the top of a sealed cup. The best part is that it makes passive draws very effective at drawing cool air over the hot coil to cool it down quickly. A few seconds after each pull preserves the flavor of oils held inside.
Regarding silicosis, I am sure that a low quality poorly formed ceramic rod is of no benefit to anyone. White ceramic as pictured is not a wicking material in any case, it can't absorb oils. Only a poor quality white ceramic will break down as easily as the white wicks you've shown in detail- many other types of better baked white ceramic maintain their edge when cut and don't show signs of falling apart quite like these do...
There are other materials which are less likely to 'dust' in this manner, and also can wick oils to hold them inside the wire coils. This allows oils to be held inside the coils and vaporized from the outside in, as opposed to white ceramic rods, and quartz rods which cannot wick or absorb oils and just allow them to sit on top. When the wire heats up, the heat chases the oil away, and the oils usually run into the corner pockets of the ceramic cup.
I would be FAR more concerned about silicosis from the silica wicks inside the vaporizer that you are using compared to any small ceramic particulate contaminant.
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/the-dangers-of-silica-wicks.377764/
KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
I'm not into concentrates, but in the Divine Tribe thread they are raving about their ceramic donuts. AFAIK in these designs the material is only in contact with glazed ceramic and never touches the coils.
I wouldn't want my material touching metal. It's chemically active and likely to react one way or another, especially at high temperature.
I wouldn't want my material touching metal. It's chemically active and likely to react one way or another, especially at high temperature.
There's an older product from the ecig world that might be used to regulate power in a device like this.
It's a small unit that drops right into the battery tube. An 18500 cell is then used in place of the 18650 to accommodate the reduced space in the battery tube. The maximum power output is 15 watts, which is low. But it has low battery voltage protection which is a good feature for absent-minded or uninitiated users.
Here's a link-
https://www.fasttech.com/products/1/10006734/1670801-authentic-sigelei-variable-wattage-kick-module
It's a small unit that drops right into the battery tube. An 18500 cell is then used in place of the 18650 to accommodate the reduced space in the battery tube. The maximum power output is 15 watts, which is low. But it has low battery voltage protection which is a good feature for absent-minded or uninitiated users.
Here's a link-
https://www.fasttech.com/products/1/10006734/1670801-authentic-sigelei-variable-wattage-kick-module
SamuraiSam
Extraction Technician
That opinion is factually incorrect. Some metals may react with some substances. Other materials are inert and have no interaction. Titanium is such an inert metal, it is so benign that it may be implanted inside the human body without issue. I have the same opinion as @stickstones that nichrome wire doesn't ever taste good in an oil vaporizer - its metallurgical composition makes it impossible to 'temperature control' based off a measured increase in resistance, its hard to control with fixed voltage output pens which is why most nichrome heating elements glow red hot in just a few seconds in standard 'wax pens'. Stainless steel are composed of alloys- various types indicated by the number following- and these alloys may be perfectly safe at lower temperatures, but at higher temperatures they may degrade. When used in a temperature controlled device there should be no concerns, but in an unregulated device it might be possible for the SS to be heated to a dangerous level.. Grades 1-4 of titanium degrade into titanium dioxide when overheated. TiO2 has in the past been recognized as safe, but recent study on nanoparticle inhalation is shining some focus on different ways that TiO2 can enter the human body and whether high levels of these nanoparticles can lead to cancer. the IARC has classed Ti)2 dust as a Group 2B carcinogen meaning it has not been proven to cause cancer, but "may be partially carcinogenic to humans" I for one and looking forward to further study about this topic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3423755/ Luckily in the same way that SS can be temperature controlled and kept far below a level at which this worry would crop up, titanium (at least grades 1-4) can be temp controlled for safetys sake (and fantastic flavor too)
The ceramic donuts are a great way to heat oils, but the same "run away" heating effect occurs- heated surfaces chase oil away, so without a wick to hold oils near, large amounts of splatter and loss of efficiency may result. The usual result is that the first heat off such a heater tastes great, and as the remainder of the oil sits in contact with a heated surface, it undergoes thermal degradation.
Vaporizer safety is a topic of paramount importance to me, and I take misinformation like fear mongering over ceramic when it is actually silica wicks with which we should be concerned, pretty seriously. I appeared on episodes 72 and 86 of Hash Church to discuss the topic (and demonstrate devices made by a former employer.) There are other companies making fantastic devices from safe materials too- I no longer have any affiliation with the company whose products I promoted at the time. If you are using silica wick oil vaporizers, you may want to tune in to episode 72 and listen to what Dr. Mark Scialdone has to say about these substances.
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KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
I was thinking more about NiCr and SS when I wrote this.
Titanium might well be inert, but doctors were completely clueless when a friend of mine developed a severe allergy that was getting worse and worse. It appeared that the so called "totally inert" titanium implants he had in the ankles after an accident triggered the reaction. It stopped as soon as he had them replaced.
I also recall reading several people claiming they could taste it when vaping. This is why I always stuck to SS personally. The Project and most people in the BULLI thread also moved to SS, and we didn't look back.
The DT attys work in TC mode so they don't overheat (plus they are low power) and if you clean them often (as one should) apparently the taste stays great. Again I'm just reporting what the guys say over there, I don't do concentrates, I just hang in the DT thread for the mod talk. They do complain about leakage etc though.
But with a coil in direct contact with the material it's even worse: the interface film is overcooked and apart from torching the thing you can't really clean it. In the e-cig world they consider the coils to be disposable and they just swap or rebuild. Whereas for on-demand convection like we do in the Project, as long as your TC is working properly the coil never (or barely) glows and stays pristine clean.