The Nomad From Morwood

[Derrrpp]

I think it makes more sense to stick with the 18650. The performance difference doesn't seem like it would be that significant, and I personally would like it to be as small as possible for portability. Plus 18650s are cheaper and more widely available, and many people likely already have a few lying around.

 

[Dan Morrison]

I will stick with the 18650 for now.

I mocked up a block to see the size difference.. it's just too large for not enough gain.

This thing will be most suited to micro-dosing, small bowls, on demand, on the go. I think that the 18650 cells are more than adequate for a full day of use.

Changing the size wouldn't be too much extra effort, if someone really wanted to order a 20700/21700 version. In keeping with the customization theme, I would be open to offering it upon request.

 

[Stu]

Pencil for scale. The glass stem shown here is a tad long, I am going to shorten it a bit.

That looks fantastic, Dan. Very well done!

Looks like I won't be able to set it down upright, though. Kinda bummed about that tbh, but I'm sure I'll find a way to get by.

Edit: I vote for the 18650 model.

 

[Dan Morrison]

Not to worry @Stu , it's not quite finished yet. The sleeve and bottom plate are the last pieces. The bottom plate adds the flat bottom, it'll stand upright!

 

[KeroZen]

I would happily loose 3mm to gain +33% more capacity personally.

Maybe it's because you yanks are still counting with your hands and feet so you don't realize how insignificant of a size it is: 3 mm = 0.11811 inch.

If you guys found the difference between switching from say the 25R/HE4 to the 30Q/HG2 was noticeable (+500mAh only) here we are taking the double (+1000mAh)

And those cells are already available in all your favorite shops right now (IMRbatteries, fasttech etc...) We're just waiting for other manufacturers (Sony, Samsung...) to follow.

https://www.fasttech.com/product/6992000-authentic-sanyo-ncr20700a-3-7v-3300mah
https://www.fasttech.com/products/1420/10010486/6992100

 

[Shit Snacks]

Yeah just stick to standard @Dan Morrison, many already have batts, plenty of capacity as is, already cheap and nicely compact... Just no real reason to go there (yet) at all imo

 

[RelaxedNow]

Longer battery life is appealing, but it sounds like this heater design should provide plenty with 18650's. Besides, with custom ordering available, anybody who wants to go for it will have that option.

 

[KeroZen]

Yeah but imagine what we could do with 30A and the same capacity as the current best 18650's we use! (i.e. 3000mAh for the HG2/30Q/VTC6)

Currently if you need 30A you get a real poor capacity, between 1000 and 1500mAh. Many use these cells in the e-cig world but for our vapes it's way too low.

With 30A we could envision a heater module with *real* instant on-demand response. Something you would just "click" for half a second here and there, never holding the trigger, just click click draw....

But ok, this would be surely very hard to master if it's unregulated...

Alright Dan, keep it unchanged for the time being, and let's keep a close eye on how it catches on. If you need to maintain two versions, you'll have to duplicate your jigs and tooling. Let's K.I.S.S.! The easier it is to build, the sooner it will be in our hands!

 

[PPN]

Is @KeroZen wasn't mentionning a sort of "spacer" exist to accomodate both 18650 and 20700....? so , no problem in this case!

 

[KeroZen]

There are already spacers to adapt to 26650 (it's just a plastic cylinder really) to make the cell centered and prevent rattling in the device.

But with 2x700 the cell is also 5mm longer. We would need a different version of what I call the "sprong" here (the springy contact tab between the cell and the heater) with a thicker contact point on one side.

Dan could provide both in the kit and the user would have to screw one or the other.

 

[grokit]

How about a visual reference

 

[GreenHopper]

There are already spacers to adapt to 26650 (it's just a plastic cylinder really) to make the cell centered and prevent rattling in the device.

But with 2x700 the cell is also 5mm longer. We would need a different version of what I call the "sprong" here (the springy contact tab between the cell and the heater) with a thicker contact point on one side.

Dan could provide both in the kit and the user would have to screw one or the other.

I like this idea, also lends itself to the modularity concept.

 

[nosmoking]

I could see the flower users needing more battery life. I would go through at least two 18650 batteries in one day with the Milaana. I never could get through a day on one battery.

When I switched to using concentrates mainly I decided to get a box mod battery and went with an eLeaf Pico Mega which accepts one 18650 or one 26650 batteries. The bigger battery makes it last just about a week with heavy concentrate use. The small battery lasts me 3 or 4 days often.

Just trying to shed more light on battery usage. For me, I like the idea of using a single 18650 cause it will likely last me more than a day. For heavy flower users, there may be some valid reasons for a bigger battery.

 

[KeroZen]

I'm with @nosmoking here: at the moment, none of my 18650 vapes can serve me one full day on the go with a single cell. I need at least two. That is, using flowers.

It's not a big deal but I need to transport a battery case with the vape, and if the device is not able to charge (ex: Milaaana, MVT etc..) I also need to carry a charger (usually a box mod with some version of the Project on top, so I can alternate)

So there's a chance that with a single 20700 fully charged the morning I could be covered for the full day.

 

[vapen00b]

@Dan Morrison I too got plenty of decent 18650s, like the smaller form factor and think batts are easily and quickly swappable... Plus I'm sure it will have a pretty solid battery life anyway running at 7A only.

Of course, let's see what the new batt gen will bring us. To me personally it's like a 4K TV.. Or VR in its first stages back then. Too early, too bulky, too whatever

 

[little maggie]

I just found this thread. It looks really interesting.

 

[KeroZen]

LOL @ maggie the vape magnet!

 

[Dan Morrison]

I just found this thread. It looks really interesting.

Welcome aboard!

Well, it seems like the battery preferences depends on indended usage. On one hand, if you use more than a single 18650 in a day, the move to a 2x700 battery is pretty much a no brainer. On the other hand, if you can get away with a single 18650 in a day, sticking with 18650 starts to make more sense...

I am still up for making both sizes, the tooling change is very minimal.

It's been interesting to test the heater modules... being unregulated there is definitely a lot to consider with the dropping battery voltage...

Personally I am starting to like the heaters that I can hold the trigger down constantly, and regulate temperature with draw speed only. Meaning, the surface area is great enough that the heat can be taken away faster than it can accumulate. I can overpower the heater with a fast draw speed.

This sort of heater will start out, on a fresh 4.2v battery, being able to overpower draw speed, just barely. Meaning that if I keep holding the fire button down, I will eventually scorch the load, even at a fast draw speed.

But by the time the battery has settled down around 3.7v, a medium draw speed is required for proper temperature. A fast draw speed can over-power the heater and give a temp that's too low.

With medium draw speed, you can have the fire button on for the entire draw.

Because I like vaping pipe tobacco, I prefer a slower draw speed, I feel like this gives the thick flavourful vapor I expect to get from a pipe, more time for the vapour to flowww out and move around the mouth.

This style also seems to be best for newcomers, and in group sessions, very easy to control and get the correct temp without overshooting, no fire button modulation required.

But I can definitely see the advantage of a heater that is NOT overpowered by draw speed, even at 3.7v. For more experienced users. At 3.7v, this will act more like the above heater at 4.2v.

neat stuff!

 

[GreenHopper]

neat stuff!

Hell Yeh!

can definitely see the advantage of a heater that is NOT overpowered by draw speed

This is another one of those things that's personal, some will want X others would prefer Y...

Out of curiosity, what is it that defines the underpowered vs the overpowered?

Is it the heaters surface area?

 

[Dan Morrison]

@GreenHopper,

It's a combination of many factors, current applied, air speed, starting air temp, geometry of airway, heater material..etc..

If your heater wattage is too low, you'll be removing heat faster than you can make it. To a point where you reach an equilibrium, somewhere in a low temperature range... too low.

If your wattage is too high, you are making more heat than you can remove, even with the hardest of inhales. Eventually the heater will overpower you and reach combustion temperatures. You need to feather the fire button on and off to control the heat.

A heater module that is just right, IMO, is one that reaches equilibrium at your desired inhale rate, at your desired temperature. This will be different for everyone, hence the need for different heaters.

Of course...with an unregulated heater.. you'll always have to bleed through into over or under powered territory as your battery voltage changes. So it's better to start overpowered, and settle into the sweet spot.

 

[Fat Freddy]

For what its worth, I'm in the 18650 camp.

Still, maybe some like @KeroZen might lead the way for us by having Dan make a few units with higher "fire power" so we, the "lesser initiated", can watch where that might lead?

.

 

[KeroZen]

I ordered a couple cells for evaluation purposes, one of each. I'm not even sure they would fit in my nitecore charger so that could be a downside already.

 

[grokit]

I am still up for making both sizes, the tooling change is very minimal.

Would it make sense for the current 18650 version to use the current 14mm roasting tube as planned, while the 21700 version would utilize a larger 18mm roasting tube? Like a regular and XL version that could use the same accessories. Just a thought, I obviously have no idea if that's workable or not in real life.

 

[VaporSipper]

A heater module that is just right, IMO, is one that reaches equilibrium at your desired inhale rate, at your desired temperature. This will be different for everyone, hence the need for different heaters.

In keeping with the analog nature of this vape, would it make sense to just have one, more powerful heater module, which could be adjusted via a variable resistor to each individual's taste and draw speed? The pot can be part of the vape, not the heater module itself, and could work with any type of heater module installed.

 

[Dan Morrison]

@grokit, currently I have the heater diameter matched to the inside diameter of the glass stem. I feel like, to get even heating right to the walls of the chamber, if the inside diameter of the glass is increased much more..you will probably also have to increase the diameter of the heater to match. I fear that without matching heater to chamber size, we won't see the full vapour production increase that is expected.

And changing the heater/stem diameter becomes a much more complex design change...

I haven't yet found a source for sterling silver tube larger than the size I'm using for the heater modules. But I could use stainless...

It may require a special order teflon encapsulted silicone o-ring, these are around $10 EACH. I can source the common 14mm O-rings for more like $3 a piece in bulk. I use two O-rings for each unit...that would add a significant cost.

An XL version, with larger heater diameter, larger diameter glass stem..beefed up everything, would definitely be possible..and probably give some insane performance.. but it would definitely be more expensive. I would love to make it though, haha.

@VaporSipper, The only way I was able to achieve the small size with this design was to go unregulated. A module add-on, that adds a second battery + regulation, is possible for the future.

I also really liked the fully mechanical nature of unregulated.