the Michael Brown thread
- Thread starter 2clicker
- Start date
marduk
daydreamer
Just saw the uncensored shooting of the other guy Kajieme Powell on Youtube. Sure, he was telling them to shoot him, and he had a tiny knife, but he sure wasn't 3 or 4 feet away with the knife out in an overhand position. He was at least 10 feet away when they started shooting. They shot 9 times and 7 of the shots came after he was already down. Mainstream media isn't showing the full encounter for obvious reasons, but I haven't heard any newscasters comment yet on how they kept shooting after he was down. Those cops are either too scared or angry to be cops, or maybe they just need proper training.
Watch in HD. Encounter starts at 1:20.
Watch in HD. Encounter starts at 1:20.
2clicker
Observer
sure when the guy is close yeah. he cant stab you from 10 feet away.
yet ANOTHER example of LE blatantly lying.
Caligula
Maximus
You didnt watch the whole video did you? It's only 3 minutes (and you posted within 1-2 minutes of my reply going up).
Humor me. Watch the whole thing.
BTW, I just saw CNN do a reenactment, filming from the same spot with people in the same place. The figure the guy was about 6' away when he got shot.
olivianewtonjohn
Well-Known Member
But didnt the police officers have their guns drawn already? Isnt reaction time quicker if your gun is drawn? I dont think it covered that case did it? Let me double check real quick
Caligula
Maximus
Yes, which is why they were smart about it. How much time should they wait before shooting? If you watch the video someone can get to you in 1.5 seconds from a distance of 10' out.
If that CNN reenactment is correct (and its probably closer than we can guess from looking at a single cell phone video) and the guy was anywhere near 6' away, that's close enough to be a threat to the cops life.
2clicker
Observer
kidding right? i didnt say the cops did not have the right to have a gun on a man with a knife. but shooting him when he isnt in stabbing distance is bullshit.
even at 6 feet.
olivianewtonjohn
Well-Known Member
Right so we have a guy going at them as fast as he can probably the quickest he possibly can. Vs two officers with drawn weapons. I still wonder if they couldnt fire a few less shots at least?
To balance your video
2clicker
Observer
we will just have to agree to disagree here.
Caligula
Maximus
I'm not kidding, 6' is within stabbing distance. That's the whole point of the video, that's also the info that the police are trained with. In fact I'm privy to this information due to my martial arts training. This is something I've known since I was 12.
About what exactly?
@olivianewtonjohn I'm not arguing that there were/nt alternatives. What I'm saying is that their lives were really in danger, and lawfully (as well as per their training), they did what was "right". Whether or not you think its right isn't the question here. Or at least that's not my point.
I really don't want part of any moral debate here. I'm simply stating facts. I think if you want to gain traction with an argument here, you should be focusing on the training the police receive and not the actions in this individual case.
On a personal note, I would probably opt on the side of caution regarding my own life over that of a complete stranger holding a knife asking to be shot. It looks like these officers feel the same.
olivianewtonjohn
Well-Known Member
I agree they should fire if there is an explicit danger but why do they need to unload their magazine? I have always found that strange, can they not be trained to fire a shot and react if need be? Or is the belief the assalient will go BEAST mode and attack right after being shot?
2clicker
Observer
if the guys arms are 6 feet long then yes, but they arent. so he could not have possibly hurt them unless he charged them. and this whole "he could charge us so shoot him just in case" is just not sufficient for me. there is no doubt that they are trained like this. that is the problem. again... america is doing it wrong.
Caligula
Maximus
Again, training. As has been shown repeatedly, cops (or anyone) dont always hit the target the first (or second or third or fourth) time. At least not enough to stop the target. As I've said before, they are trained that if you shoot at someone you shoot to kill. If you're shooting to kill you don't shoot once and hope it does the job.
A person roughly 4 feet further away than this guy was standing from the cops, could close the distance within 1.5 seconds. From a dead stop.
The guy in the video was obviously closer than this, and was walking towards them.
How much time would the police have if he decided to charge at them (especially with forward momentum already built from walking)? 1.25 seconds? 1 second? 2/3 of a second? Less?
Wheres the line for you?
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marduk
daydreamer
He wasn't 6 feet away, don't forget to add the extra distance created by the y axis position.
And when the cops first pulled up and got out of the car, they were within 21 feet, so should they have just emptied their magazines into the guy immediately when he didn't put the knife down?
And when the cops first pulled up and got out of the car, they were within 21 feet, so should they have just emptied their magazines into the guy immediately when he didn't put the knife down?
tuk
Well-Known Member
That's Suicide by cop..stole 2 beers from the store then put them on the kerb waiting for the cops to arrive.
Caligula
Maximus
I didnt come up with that figure, CNN did when they went to the location and did a reenactment by filming actors from the same spot, standing in the same positions. I'm sure they will rerun it since they took some time and effort to do this.
Regardless, lets say they were wrong. Its not 6'. Lets say they were off by almost double. At 10 feet away, my point still stands. 1.5 seconds... from a standstill.
How close is close enough when your life is on the line? Do you trust yourself to react in less than 2 seconds to save yourself? How about 1.5 seconds? 1 second? Less?
Having experienced a lot of scenarios like this in my martial arts training, I find a majority of people underestimate how quickly they need to react in situations like this.
olivianewtonjohn
Well-Known Member
We agree here 100% and I thought you would come back saying it was lawful. I agree as well. I totally think their training needs to change. Sorry I dont believe police officers risk needs to be as low as possible, I dont believe in all the caution regarding their own life at the expense of an empty clip and a persons life.
Brings me to another point you have police trained with a very aggressive approach. They are shown a bunch of videos of them getting killed. I think its important for them to be train for all situations but they are trained that everyone is a potential killer. You have cops in the suburbs who think they are in a war zone, all while statistically their risk of death might be lower than a civilian in a bad side of town.
2clicker
Observer
agree to disagree. they have guns pointed at his head. he has a small knife.
clearly even if he attacks he will be killed before any real damage can be done. unless of course this guys was a navy seal or specially trained, but he wasnt.
you can go on and on about how fast he could have attacked them. that doesnt fly with me.
Caligula
Maximus
Is this a fact or is it an opinion? I'm not 100% up the training today's police force gets, but I can tell you it was more comprehensive than you make it out to be 20 years ago.
- How do you know what this guy was trained in, or wasn't as the case may be? Did you get this information from the same place the police were supposed to look it up in order to know exactly what they were dealing with?
- How big was the knife? Do you know? Whats exactly a "small knife" anyway? Also, unless it was an Exacto or butter knife, why does this matter?
- It doesnt take a lot of skill to kill someone with a knife. All it takes is a little bit of luck OR a basic understanding of vital areas on the body (e.g. go for the neck). In fact, I'm going to wager that most people who commit murder with a knife haven't had prior training.
- I'm glad that you can make these decisions when other people's lives are on the line. I'm sure you would feel the same if it was you standing there, right?
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olivianewtonjohn
Well-Known Member
Well I cant find the initial interview (I tried) but yes it is a fact that there are suburbs where the chance of a police officer being killed is much lower than a civlian living in a bad area
Now obviously police training is my opinion. Im not going to play the word game with you. Obviously for something as broad as police training I am stating an opinion, if you want me to sit here and research a topic as complex as police training your asking for too much. This isnt my thesis, this is a discussion on an internet forum.
Caligula
Maximus
I was just curious as to if you were privy to information that I was not. That's all. Not trying to play word games, I just like it when people are clear as to what they say. Exaggeration, IMO, is a small form of propaganda.
For example, if someone were to say "That's the problem with those protesters, every time they go out they loot and riot!"... how would you take it?
Would assume they meant "only the minority of protesters that are there to cause trouble"? Or would you rather question them on their wording?
To me, I could see taking that as an improper blanket statement, and possibly even a racist one. And you bet that I would question them on it.
What would you do?
Think about that and give me a truthful answer.
For example, if someone were to say "That's the problem with those protesters, every time they go out they loot and riot!"... how would you take it?
Would assume they meant "only the minority of protesters that are there to cause trouble"? Or would you rather question them on their wording?
To me, I could see taking that as an improper blanket statement, and possibly even a racist one. And you bet that I would question them on it.
What would you do?
Think about that and give me a truthful answer.
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2clicker
Observer
in areas where police wear cameras mounted on their chest... wait for it...
excessive force is down 60% and complaints from the citizens is down a whopping 88%!
maybe this is one of the answers...? if the cops know they will be held accountable for their actions it appears that they act like humans.
http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/what-happens-when-police-officers-wear-body-cameras-1408320244?mobile=y
excessive force is down 60% and complaints from the citizens is down a whopping 88%!
maybe this is one of the answers...? if the cops know they will be held accountable for their actions it appears that they act like humans.
http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/what-happens-when-police-officers-wear-body-cameras-1408320244?mobile=y
Caligula
Maximus
Duh? I know I stopped sleeping at my desk when the security monitors went in.
Perhaps instead of protesting 24/7 they could... have a national fundraiser to buy the police cameras? Maybe they could get Bill Maher to host it probono.
olivianewtonjohn
Well-Known Member
Well yes I think its pretty clear it was a generalization. Very similar to other generalizations that have happened in this thread related to excessive police force. Unless we are devoted to spending a large amount of time I dont know what you expect from anyone who has an opinion. We use the evidence we see and form an approximation/opinion. Again this is based on the many youtube videos, actual police encounters I have had, live streams, etc. At a certain point I have become convinced. You arent I get it.
To expand on this point above:
The very reason I believe that is because its a slippery slope. At a certain point minimizing police officers lives becomes this:
Yes its an extreme example but I think it demonstrates my point. Its a balance that police need to have between civilian safety and violence. Right now I feel like its tilted too much towards violence.
Duh? I know I stopped sleeping at my desk when the security monitors went in.
Perhaps instead of protesting 24/7 they could... have a national fundraiser to buy the police cameras? Maybe they could get Bill Maher to host it probono.
Well your acting like police cameras were just magically put in place one day. I agree it would be great if they did that but its a process. How many protests happened in California before they used cameras?
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