the Michael Brown thread

[tuk]

Honestly, it sucks children were in the car but unless the point of posting this video is to highlight what a shit parent that woman is, I'm at a loss.

If you cant work out for yourself why its wrong for cops to fire guns at a van load of kids I'm not sure I can explain it to you.

 

[olivianewtonjohn]

@tuk just replace that video with this one (also in NM) and we're on the same page:

Or this one:

 

[tuk]

The woman was armed with her car which could be very dangerous in her apparent state of mind.

Could be? What if eh? ...the facts remain, the most violent/dangerous things that happened in that video were:

a) the cops smashing the windows with batons.
b) the cops discharging weapons at the car.

 

[olivianewtonjohn]

Could be? What if eh? ...the fact remains the most violent/dangerous things that happened in that video was:

a) the cops smashing the windows with batons.
b) the cops discharging weapons at the car.

LOL thats not my quote

 

[tuk]

What medications? I find it hard to believe that her medications made her do all of this. Must be some strong stuff.

Are you saying really saying you don't know what happens when a person who needs anti-pyschotic meds doesn't get those meds?

 

[olivianewtonjohn]

You don't know what happens when a person who needs anti-pyschotic meds doesn't get those meds?

I didnt know they were anti-psychotics I was genuinely asking. Good to know thats not her standard state. Not sure how much of the blame I would put on the police force in that case.

EDIT: I searched and cant find a source for the meds. Mind enlightening us?

Did you watch the two videos I posted above?

 

[RUDE BOY]

Would it make any difference to know that women was given the wrong medication after a mixup at the pharmacy...which caused her erratic behaviour?

The cop wouldn't know that and has to go by the actions of the person At the Moment of their interaction. Mental/emotional capacity comes out in sentencing not during a common traffic stop.

 

[2clicker]

heres a video of excessive force and trampling all over the constitution.

 

[tuk]

The cop wouldn't know that....

Exactly, so shoot guns at kids first & ask questions later?

.....and has to go by the actions of the person At the Moment of their interaction.

1) Cops are trained to spot mental illness, because people with mental illness often rub up against law enforcement.
2) Judging the actions of the person in the video...would you say her behaviour seemed rational/normal to you?

 

[Chill Dude]

If you cant work out for yourself why its wrong for cops to fire guns at a van load of kids I'm not sure I can explain it to you.

I agree on that point. Even if she's a terrible parent, a terrible nasty person and obviously disregarded numerous commands from the police and committed a felony by fleeing.

A police officer should never shoot at a car with innocent children. I'd even go further and say the cop shouldn't have fired at the car even if crazy lady was the only one in the car. What if he would of shot her in the head and killed her? Would that be appropriate force based on the crime? I hardly think so. I mean, come on, did they actually think they couldn't have caught her without shooting? She was driving away how could they view that as an immediate threat on their lives and feel the need to gun her down? It makes no sense...

 

[Caligula]

Would it make any difference to know that women was given the wrong medication after a mixup at the pharmacy...which caused her erratic behaviour?

No, not really. Perhaps in sentencing, but not when this event occurred.

Could be? What if eh? ...the facts remain, the most violent/dangerous things that happened in that video were:

a) the cops smashing the windows with batons.
b) the cops discharging weapons at the car.

c) A person off their "anti-psychotics" driving a van loaded with children, on a public roadway, and in a manner which got her pulled over in the first place.

Are you saying really saying you don't know what happens when a person who needs anti-pyschotic meds doesn't get those meds?

1) Cops are trained to spot mental illness, because people with mental illness often rub up against law enforcement.
2) Judging the actions of the person in the video...would you say her behaviour seemed rational/normal to you?

1) The only cop to actually have any relevant interaction with the woman was exceedingly nice and courteous during their exchange.
2) I would argue that almost any criminal action around police is going to seem irrational to me. Are you suggesting that every case of this is due to mental illness?

 

[RUDE BOY]

1) Cops are trained to spot mental illness, because people with mental illness often rub up against law enforcement.
2) Judging the actions of the person in the video...would you say her behaviour seemed rational/normal to you?

This was just a traffic stop and she refused to listen to the cop (something she agreed to do when she got a drivers licence) and evaded arrest so no i wouldn't say she was rational, but that's hardly a sign of mental illness just a sure sign of stupidity in my opinion.

Shooting at the van was also a stupid and reckless act.

 

[Magic9]

Are we sure that cop didn't fire at the tires? To prevent a clearly erratic lady from driving away at high speed with a van full of children, possibly crashing into another van full of children?

 

[tuk]

I agree on that point. Even if she's a terrible parent, a terrible nasty person and obviously disregarded numerous commands from the police and committed a felony by fleeing.

A police officer should never shoot at a car with innocent children. I'd even go further and say the cop shouldn't have fired at the car even if crazy lady was the only one in the car. What if he would of shot her in the head and killed her? Would that be appropriate force based on the crime? I hardly think so. I mean, come on, did they actually think they couldn't have caught her without shooting? She was driving away how could they view that as an immediate threat on their lives and feel the need to gun her down? It makes no sense...

If you listen to the dialogue shes not really following what the cop is saying, the first time she pulls away from him, she drives off slowly taking her time to join the lane, the cop is in no hurry to chase her, she is almost round the corner before he puts the siren on, when he catches up she pulls over safely.

It's only when the other cops turn up and they start getting aggressive, shouting & smashing the car windows....that she gets freaked out & drives off in a dangerous manner which causes a high speed pursuit.
--------------------

The original cop already had her details, they could have swung by her home early the next day with child services in tow, arrested her, confiscated the car..whatever, without a single shot being fired, let alone being fired at children.

 

[Caligula]

BTW, I just watched that video yet again. The officer who initially pulled the car over is decidedly NOT the one who shot his firearm. In fact, you can clearly see that he has his TAZER (you can clearly see this @ 12:24) out when hes dealing with the male (as well as the driver) who exited the vehicle during the second FELONY stop. While he was by himself without backup mind you.


Also, I'm glad no one with a diagnosed mental illness has done anything dangerous to the public or law enforcement.

As a bonus Ill let you guess which of these 4 mass murders were prescribed anti-psychotics.






Just saying.

 

[tuk]

Are we sure that cop didn't fire at the tires?

Trouble is the tires were attached to a van full of kids at the time they were being shot at.

To prevent a clearly erratic lady from driving away at high speed with a van full of children, possibly crashing into another van full of children?
If they didn't want her driving on

Why didn't they just park in front of her...not exactly rocket science is it? Or maybe it is rocket science for the average US cop?

Like I said before:

Cops firing guns at an unarmed family? Do I blame the cops for that...damn right I do.

That situation could have been handled a thousand other ways without a shot being fired....let alone shots being fired at unarmed children.

It's only when the other cops turn up and they start getting aggressive, shouting & smashing the car windows....that when she gets freaked out & drives off in a dangerous manner which causes a high speed pursuit.

The cops should be there to de-escalate not escalate.

Are you guys watching the same video?

 

[RUDE BOY]

Criminal Insanity is still Criminal !

 

[tuk]

BTW, I just watched that video yet again. The officer who initially pulled the car over is decidedly NOT the one who shot his firearm.

Just saying.

You don't seriously blame what happened in that video on the officer do you?
....but in no way is that the fault of the original officer.

no particular officer was mentioned....slowly step away from the strawman argument.

-----------------------

Criminal Insanity is still Criminal !

Maybe in America but in more civilised countries it ain't.

The Insane don't even go to trial..because you have to be shown to be sane to stand trial.

But I guess thats why so many mentally ill people got the death penalty in the US.

 

[RUDE BOY]

Why didn't they just park in front of her...not exactly rocket science is it?

This was my first thought when the other two cops pulled up.

 

[Chill Dude]

BTW, I just watched that video yet again. The officer who initially pulled the car over is decidedly NOT the one who shot his firearm. In fact, you can clearly see that he has his TAZER (you can clearly see this @ 12:24) out when hes dealing with the male (as well as the driver) who exited the vehicle during the second FELONY stop. While he was by himself without backup mind you.

As I said in my previous post, my problem is only with the dumbass cop who fired shots without his or any other officers life in immediate danger. It makes no sense.

 

[Chill Dude]

The original cop already had her details, they could have swung by her home early the next day with child services in tow, arrested her, confiscated the car..whatever, without a single shot being fired, let alone being fired at children.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Caligula]

@tuk @Chill Dude

The entire point of bringing that up is to show that the officer who actually had face to face interaction with the suspects is the one who acted most appropriately. In fact what spurred me to look into that was when @tuk mentioned police "being trained to spot mental illness".

Maybe he did? Maybe that's why he had his Tazer out when protocol for a felony stop warrants a firearm? Or maybe he just didn't want to shoot because he saw children? Who knows? What I do know is that I didn't see him get a chance to explain that to either of the officers who arrives to back him up. Sadly, they were only able to react to a situation that was already getting out of control when they arrived.

Why didn't they just park in front of her...not exactly rocket science is it? Or maybe it is rocket science for the average US cop?

The first squad car on the scene came in super fast and stopped as soon as he could because he saw what was going on. At that point, the safety of the officer who just called for help is their main objective. The second car did try to box the van in, but stopped short for whatever reason. Regardless, if you look to the right of the van you can see that there's a bunch of flat open space for a car to easily drive around something parked in front of it. It would have taken more than one car to be effective. All in all, I think that those were pretty sound tactical decisions given that they were done on the fly and within a few seconds.

It is always nice to armchair quarterback with the instant replay though, isn't it?

It's only when the other cops turn up and they start getting aggressive, shouting & smashing the car windows....that she gets freaked out & drives off in a dangerous manner which causes a high speed pursuit.

Indeed. It's all the cops fault, why didn't I see that before?

The original cop already had her details, they could have swung by her home early the next day with child services in tow, arrested her, confiscated the car..whatever, without a single shot being fired, let alone being fired at children.

The original cop had an EXPIRED LICENSE. Other than that we don't know what "details" he had. I'm also sure no criminal has EVER gone into hiding after figuring out the police are looking for them.

 

[Magic9]

The lady pulled away from the cop in an attempt to get back into the van. At that point, kids hop out of the van. Including a male of decent size who proceeds to charge and grab at the cop. I did not see anyone getting aggressive, shouting, or smashing windows until after the lady pulls away.

As for not pulling in front of the van, if you are responding to a call, you pull up to see the RO with a weapon drawn, and a person in the drivers seat of the van, you are seriously at risk if that person drives forward as you are getting out. That's standard op.

Should they have just let the lady drive off? Erratically? Hope for the best? Forget about the danger she posed to herself, children, and other innocent people?

 

[tuk]

Also, I'm glad no one with a diagnosed mental illness has done anything dangerous to the public or law enforcement.

As a bonus Ill let you guess which of these 4 mass murders were prescribed anti-psychotics.

Just saying.

A straw man is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.

This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

We go from a scatty mother at a routine traffic stop to convicted mass murders with nazi flags lolz...nice try!

It's all the cops fault, why didn't I see that before?

Maybe because you're biased & defend the cops regardless of how crazy, unbalanced or unjustifiably dangerous their actions may be.

I'll cite 90% of your posts in this thread as evidence of the above.

 

[Caligula]

Can you please let me know what argument of yours I misrepresented, and how I went about doing that? Details would be helpful since I honestly cant figure it out. Im thinking you may have missed a point I was trying to make or something, so Id like the chance to clarify.

Maybe because your biased & defend the cops regardless of how crazy, unbalanced or unjustifiably dangerous their actions may be.

I'll cite 90% of your posts in this thread as evidence of the above.