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The Lab Glass Vaporizer

Discussion in 'DIY' started by jojo monkey, Jan 8, 2015.

  1. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    [​IMG]

    Got a pic from the glass blower. If things work out the heater will be mostly covered in beads.

    Now I just have to wait for it.
     
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  2. lazylathe

    lazylathe Almost there...

    Messages:
    2,928
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Looking good @jojo monkey
    It's looking like an adapted Ver Damper!
    Looking forward to the next version!
     
    jojo monkey likes this.
  3. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    @lazylathe The Ver Damper is a classic... that is good company! Both vapes are a bunch of hot glass that is for sure.

    I got the new custom 3-way adapter!

    [​IMG]

    I am pleased with how they turned out. The heater's glass dips just past the taper before the joint holding back the beads.

    A big plus is the heater is out of the joint. So far I can say the joints are much cooler without a heater in the middle of them. The bowls was nowhere as hot as before. The downside is that I have to make the whole vape a little hotter to extract the same way as before. I am up 40F (measure from the outside) to get the same color ABV. It does seem like I am getting bigger extractions. I will keep checking :p
     
  4. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    I understated the temps I need to use with the new glass. I saw vapor and not the abv when I posted. After some vaping I have a better feel.

    So I changed 1 part and now have to go up 90F to get the same color ABV? I need to run at 370F for a dark color, before 280F did the trick. (i measure the temp on the outside glass) I am using the same amount of beads, the same 300W, the probe is in the same spot, same pid.... The only thing that has changed is the shape of the glass and how the beads are distributed. A doughnut vs an eclair.

    I was heating the joint before and the bowl would be very hot to the touch at the top. The herb would not cook, but there was a good amount of heat just above it. The heater went from .25" above the screen to 1.5" above on the new glass. With new glass I am not seeing the instant clouds I was getting before; It takes a second to warm up before I see vapor. I don't miss the hot bowls, but I do miss the flash of vapor.

    So there is a trade-off, super-hot bowls and instant vapor or cold bowls and more stable (but higher) temps? I am gonna try and shoot for the middle. Maybe I'll bring the heater down on the next version of the 3-way adapter. If it is lower it can warm the joint so the vape does not have to warm so much glass before it warms herb. I was always able to grab the bowls below the joint before so a little heat wont be too bad.

    I am gonna use the current adapter some more before I commit to more glass.




    PID notes:

    Auto-tuned settings before and after the new glass:

    300w, old glass
    P 210
    I 0432
    D 108

    300w, new glass shape @ 210F
    P 198
    I 351
    D 087
     
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  5. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    Ups and downs...

    The normal routine... come home, turn on vape, take a piss...

    I returned to the room to find thermal transfer past on the ceiling. *

    WTF

    The temps on the vape are dropping from around 300F.

    WTF

    The new glass heater was in place and the inside was also covered in paste. There was a burnt smell.

    ...

    Ok, so the new 300W blew out. I just packed the new glass heater. I was using temporary glass before and baked it down properly.

    When I was changing the glass out I had to crack open the temporary glass heater I made. I really had to smash the glass to get the heater out. The paste cooked out to flaky sharp chunks that held the heater in place.

    The new glass had fresh paste that was not cooked down.

    So I am blaming the failure on either:

    when I tried to pull the heater out of the old glass I loosened something
    the transfer paste was not cooked down enough do to its job, the heater overheated itself
    the paste was absorbed by the cartridge

    I can only guess. I was slowly stepping up in temps all week to take it easy on the paste. Tonight I set it to 340F and walked away.

    I did learn lots about the pid with the 300w. It made it very easy to see changes to the pid settings.

    So back to the old 60w glass heater I made. I slid it into the adapter, put on the stainless keck, and poured in the beads. Wiring it was easy with the butt splices. This is one of the reason I like my DIY vape: The heater is dry fitted glass. I didn't have to un-glue or unscrew anything to replace the heater and glass. Ok, new rule: keep a spare pre-made glass heater. The adapter and heater is $36 shipped, some paste, and a cork so they aren't that expensive.

    I also put in the old pid setting + some new changes based on what I learned from the 300w.

    So my old 60w tuned up is acting kinda nice. It is recovering in under a minute and would take 3-5 before inside the old 3-way adapter.

    I have not tried the 60w with the custom adapter so there is that. There are 200 more beads in there now and the heater is surrounded.

    I am wondering if I should get another 300w. I did use it just fine for a little while. It was also a little scary. I do want a bit more watts. Which road should I take? The pid light is running nonstop with the 60w, on the 300w it blinked very quickly every couple of seconds at stable high temps.

    I am thinking a 300w is too strong... it's like being so strong you can break your own arm. Then again it did work fine before I transferred it. UGH.

    Click to play YouTube Video


    The cartridge makers say go low as you can go with the watts for longevity.

    http://www.tempco.com/cartridge_heaters/HeaterFailureCause.htm

    Maybe a 200w is the middle? A 200W costs more than the 300W! WTF

    Well I'd like to get something a bit stronger than 60w that is for sure.

    On the plus side I just got word back from the glass blower. They are making a new version of the custom 3-way adapter from my crude drawings. If all goes right the temp probe will be inside the glass adapter and... more beads! With the temp probe just outside the cartridge's hotspot I hope to increase the response time. There will still be layer of glass between the probe and the air path, but it will be thinner than the adapter's glass. No more tape if this works. The tape can't go to temps I would like to test and it would be nice to ditch it. BTW custom lab glass adapters aren't that expensive. Much cheaper than replacement glass parts for the big glass desktops on the market. Even US made custom glass is less. Well it's lab glass vs niche glass so it is not the same market.

    Well that's enough rambling. My buzz needs a refresh.


    * new rule: corks go on top of newly made heater while you cook down the paste. No more peeking. Corks for safety.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  6. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    What was once a sketch is now real. Got a pick from the glass blower!

    [​IMG]

    <---deleted blabbing about the position of the probe port--->

    the short of it: I added a bead belly to my glass vape and I am measuring the middle of it with a glass port.

    So in a week or two I will find out how it hits and maintains the temps. I do think the temps will need to go up measuring on the inside. The current probe is supposed to go to 500F so there is a limit. Having the probe surrounded by heat should be a good thing though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2015
  7. Copacetic

    Copacetic Somewhere North of The Wall

    Messages:
    854
    I love your project jojo.
    Looking forward to your new temp readings.
     
    jojo monkey likes this.
  8. funkyjunky

    funkyjunky www.lamart.ch Manufacturer

    Messages:
    333
    i think you need to have that belly filled by something once the probe is in. the heat conduction over the glass does take some time but throuh air its way longer. so im afraid that your probe will not register the highest temp within the time of the draw. maybe fill it with clay or something.

    sick project!
    how would you feel if someone (me) was copying your beads idea.?:D pretty please?
     
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  9. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    @funkyjunky I am gonna use the same transfer paste I used on the outside to help fill the belly. I am never gonna get an instant response during a draw because of the glass. There are a couple things that help: One thing is the pid is pulsing to maintain the temp so during a hit the heater is active. Also this vape is accurate to a tenth of a decimal to help it respond as fast as possible.

    There are vapes that maintain the temps for a perfect stream of air and others where you hit off a large mass. The problem I find is those perfect streams are tiny and feel like sucking on a straw. I am attempting to muscle my way out of the need for a perfect stream by hitting a mass that cannot be overwhelmed fast/large draw. In my mind it is kinda like the difference between a dunk tank and a garden hose. The glass vape does need time to recover between hits so there is that.

    BTW I post here to share! Beads away!
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2015
    lazylathe and Copacetic like this.
  10. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    I just about had everything all together and ... Ugh. I broke my pt100 probe! I had a type j probe backup and it is not the same. The J takes a couple of seconds to change and is making things slooow. I am gonna get the same pt100 probe again, but I am also looking into making my own pt100 with a thin film detector and some even lengths of wire. It might be much cheaper and easier to repair to re-use the same wire and change out just the temp probe.

    BTW I do enjoy the fact that a $30 pid controller lets me use whatever probe I like.

    So here is the glass with the probe in it. This is the backup J probe. (Hmm I should try to clean up that clamp now that I see the sticker gunk in the shot.)

    Also in the shot is the smaller cable cover. I switched out the larger nomex cover for something can take lots of heat. I never had any issues, but nomex caps out at 400F (if I remember right) and the ceramic fibers can take 1000F.

    I did a better job of not getting the transfer paste all over the place. This time it changed black after a few days. I imagine air got to the bottom vs the older heater that was swimming in paste stayed copper colored. Oh and this heater is 200W.
    [​IMG]

    I tried capturing the heater glowing after a hit. Sorry it is a little blurry.
    [​IMG]
    I added a dirty screen to the intake. The cotton by itself would slow down the airflow too much if it got bottlenecked. The screen keeps things consistent
    [​IMG]

    So how does it hit? Moving where I take the temps to a little from the heater and inside the vape has been a mixed blessing. Temps are lower than I expected. I need to set the vape at 240-250F for a nice color.

    I think I made a vape that lets you know how heat soaked it is and doesn't really care about what is going on in the heater. After an auto-tune for the pid settings the heater now glows red after each hit. It is super aggressive and over-heats the whole path just to bring the pre-heating beads to temp.

    The kick is that the vape doesn't really need the beads before the heater to get a nice hit. It does help to pre-warm before the heater, but it is not required. Most of the work is done down by the beads closest to the heater. When I had the probe outside the heater on the outside of the glass the pid was able to able to maintain the temps in a way that the heater never glowed unless the heater was first warming up or at very high temps.

    I do miss the faster feedback and don't know how much of what I am seeing is the type J probe or the new glass. I might go back to taking the temps on the outside or moving the probe port a shade closer to the heater.

    I had this glass made to try it out see what it was like. Changing one part and re-using all of the other parts keeps the costs down so I like that aspect of this project.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
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  11. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    So I was gonna order a new temp probe and decided to take the broken one apart first. I found it is just 3 cheap wires soldered to a thin film rtd wrapped in fiberglass that was inserted into a stainless cover. I can do that!

    Well it turns out that there are good "Thin Film Platinum RTD Elements" that can be soldered. So for $2-$6 an element I am able to fix it. Not bad? So in the future if my temp probe breaks or drifts too far (it should drift .1C a year) I can just solder on a new one. This would not be possible with the type j and K probes because they use special wire and welds. RTDs can use that old copper wire you have sitting around if it can withstand the temps.

    What is really nice is that I got probes with known properties rather than a chinese part with fuzzy numbers. I was able to buy the fastest ones I could find. How fast?

    "water current (v= 0.4m/s): t0.5 = 0.05s t0.9 = 0.15s / air stream (v= 2m/s): t0.5 = 3.0s t0.9 = 10.0s"

    more here: http://heraeus-sensor-technology-us...lproperties/rtdelementphysicalproperties.aspx


    If you had the probe in a bath of water with a flow (v= 0.4m/s) causing a change of temps, it would take 0.05 seconds to get to 50% and 0.15 seconds to get to 90% of the temp change. Well I think that is how it works? The numbers are not real world so there is that. The rtd element is not good for air temps, but I need it for surface mounting so no biggie. I still have to wait for the glass to change temps so the vape will always be on the slow side. I just hope the probes can shave off some of the time.

    I am gonna leave the element exposed and mounted to the surface of the glass. I should get the fastest response this way and I can put it on the hotter side of the glass. The RTD element is about the size of a sesame seed so it can go wherever. A little silicone should hold it and... BOOM! A DIY repairable temp probe!

    I should find out next week if this is worthwhile.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
  12. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    Happy 2016!

    I was able to repair the temp probe by soldering on a $2 RTD element. Not bad eh? The new probe is taped with kapton on the outside on the hotspot right now...... it is f'ing fast.

    The PID settings are roughly the same with the new probe, but the vape overshoots much less. Having the element inside the stainless sheath was like adding ice skates, temps would slide around before settling.

    So I have been doing a little looking around and I think I will attack the case/pid controller/brains next. I will use a microcontroller to make things super simple. Basically a pc,mac,chromebook, or linux machine can dump code via usb on a tiny chip. The chip just runs your code, there is no OS to shut down or wait for.

    I should say that there is nothing wrong with the pid controller and that it is a super easy way to get going. I just want a little bit more control for how it works. The old pid controller will become my backup and the thing to beat.

    I hope to write the code for the things that I wanted to do w/ hardware like a shut off timer and a dial to change temps. (dials > tiny buttons you have to hold down) I like the idea of having a few favorite temps stored to jump back and forth. It will be fun to try and pull it off. Lucky for us that we live in a "maker" world where things like arduinos exist.

    Lately I have been recording the performance of the vape and graphing it to compare the configurations. Going this route I should be able to get the info right out of the vape.

    Onward and upward.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
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  13. Copacetic

    Copacetic Somewhere North of The Wall

    Messages:
    854
    Wow!, I'm in awe of your project :bowdown:
    Next you'll be replacing your PID display with nixie tubes and a plasma sphere!:science:

    Keep it up :), and please keep posting your developments/findings, this is fascinating.
     
  14. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    @Copacetic Thanks! I had to google the nixie tubes. They are really cool! If I was going the retro/mad scientist/steampunk route that would be the way to show the temps for sure. My original idea was to do something like that. I wanted lots of glass inside of a wood case I could tuck it all in. I seem to be migrating away from that idea. Now I want a tiny box attached to the vape with lots of feedback and abilities.
     
  15. Copacetic

    Copacetic Somewhere North of The Wall

    Messages:
    854
    Yeah, definitely keep the glass on show, it looks great!

    I reckon that it's only a matter of time until D-Nail or someone like that offers a nixie tube or vacuum fluorescent display (VFD) PID.
    They're already making sapphire (and even a platinum!) dabbing surfaces FFS!.

    This Kickstarter 24V power supply by Black Box is almost there already!

    [​IMG]

    (runs off to post in advanced e-nail thread)
     
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  16. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    Yeah that thing has lots of parts. I hope to use a touchscreen to keep the number of controls down. I got a 2.8" one for under $20. The idea is I can add as many buttons I need on the touchscreen and keep the device small. I do want a dial to change the temps. I am using a thing called a rotary encoder, they are the kind of knob that spins and spins.

    Speaking of which, I got the arduino to talk to one of my homemade temp probes!

    So far the electronics that are the brains and temp probe reader are about as big as two stamps and run on 3.3v. I will need more parts, but things are going well.

    I am able to get the data right out of the arduino via usb. I can tell it to spit out whatever, here is a sample of it showing the temps a few times a second:

    Code:
    RTD Sensor 1:
    prtd = 110.67 ohm
    27.31 deg C
    81.16 deg F
    RTD Sensor 1:
    prtd = 110.66 ohm
    27.28 deg C
    81.11 deg F
    RTD Sensor 1:
    prtd = 110.64 ohm
    27.25 deg C
    81.05 deg F
    
    Yep, two decimal places. It could mean the damn thing never goes stable... i might round up. It is so unnecessary to know the number past the decimal to get high, but it does help the vape respond faster on the pid controller that I use now. Decimals drop before the whole numbers yo.

    So next up is to get these numbers on a screen and have a knob change a set temp number. When I get that down, I will hook it to a relay and add the pid controller code. Then I will be adding the menus/screens and touch controls. I should know how big of a box I need by then.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
  17. Copacetic

    Copacetic Somewhere North of The Wall

    Messages:
    854
    Well done dude!
    I can see your efforts with this eventually going so far over my head that I'll barely be able to make out the undercarriage!
    Touchscreen, wow.
    Sounds like the other hardware is tiny too.
     
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  18. funkyjunky

    funkyjunky www.lamart.ch Manufacturer

    Messages:
    333
    hey!

    very nice! i can only recommend the arduino route. it is very fun to work with and somewhat easy!
    maybe you want to check fasttech.com for parts if you are not in a hurry, prices are just crazy low.

    i am building my own vape-project based on an arduino but its an open loop controlled device. is your heater able to be supplied with variable voltage? then you might want to look into pwm so you can run it in more modes than just off/on.

    have fun! :)
     
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  19. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    @Copacetic The libraries and the hardware I am using are over my head. I am just taking advantage of all the work and the community around it. This part of the project would not be possible for me to pull off if there wasn't so much already done.

    @funkyjunky Thanks! I hope you have fun with making your vape! Yeah, the arduino is making things fairly easy.

    My current heater is a 200W and the arduino will fire an dc-ac solid state relay. So a little DC off the arduino fires the AC on the heater via the relay. It runs at 100% for only a few seconds when it is in a pid (this is better for the heater). I have run the heater on a dimmer and it worked fine. It is just a US made cartridge heater... a coil inside of a stainless tube. The heater does come in 120v and 240v.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
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  20. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    So I've been tinkering a bit more. I programmed the arduino to start counting when I turn a knob to the right and to take the temps and shoot it to my screen. I am measuring the temps at the top of the heater. I take the temps on the pid controller a bit lower and on the hotspot (graph doesn't show the pid temps). So running the two temp probes I can see the difference. The pid controller was crossing back to the set temps a minute faster. This is telling me that measuring on the hottest spot is the only way to go for a this convection vape. I kinda knew that, but I can back it up with a test.

    I also wanted to test to see if taking the temps at a high rate increased the amount of noise or if there was anything to gain. I copy and pasted the data into plot.ly and:

    [​IMG]

    I took a hit for the first 5 seconds each time. The one graph is measuring 1 temp measurement per second. The other is 10 times a second with 1,800 rows of data for the 180 seconds. The vape was set to 430F on the pid controller and 318F on the arduino probe at the start of the hit. It looks like I don't need to take the temps so many times a second.

    I am gonna try and get the probe closer to the hotspot and keep on graphing. This is so much easier than looking at a timer and writing down temps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
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  21. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    Quick tease...

    Thought I'd post a pick. This are moving along very nicely. Things that I thought would be super tough have already been asked and answered on the internet.

    So I had the idea that showing the history of the temps would be neat to see. Imagine if you could see how much your hit took out of a large convection vape. Well i did until...

    [​IMG]

    I shut the vape off for a few min when I took the pic. The graph updates two times a second and can show 1.6 minutes per color. I have it wiping after a few graphs. Notice how it is flowing down. The number on the right is the set temp. I am only measuring the temps off the current vape right now, this vape is not controlling a heater quite yet.

    Now I just need some favorite buttons and the basic interface is done!

    Ok, time to sleep.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2016
  22. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    A shaky and first video update!

    New rule: no more handheld videos.

    The screen is 2" X 3". The line down the middle is the set temp. The lines above and below are +/- 10F.

    I am taking a hit a few seconds into it and the video shows the recovery. I am measuring the temps in a better spot than before, but the probe on the pid is still faster. I am too close to the joint and that slows things down a little. It is amazing how much the probe placement changes how the vape works.

    https://vid.me/8jin

    I still need to code a bit more. I hope to have it running a heater very soon.
     
  23. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    I did a little side experiment and killed my 200W. I tried running it with very little paste and it was basically exposed. What little paste was in there cooked down and was holding the heater centered. I had to chip it out with a small screwdriver to remove it from the glass. Pulling on the wire did nothing.

    I was curious if I could just skip the paste and if the heater would perform the same. It looks like I shouldn't and it didn't.

    Doing some heater comparisons: I still have 2 temp probs on the same glass and I am just switching from a 200W to a 60W. My upper temp probe is showing a 60F difference when the lower probe on the pid is at the same temp. The 200W kept the upper probe around the same temp as the lower one. So those extra watts per square inch aren't doing nothing.

    So to date I have lost 2 heaters and in both cases it was during startup. I think I have the PID too aggressively tuned for when I take a hit and it is too much for jumping from room temp to 440F (my current vaping temp). I won't have this prob w/ the arduino. I can program it to have different PID profiles for different times. I can tell it to take its time warming up and to be aggressive at the set temps. There are PID controllers that have temp stepping and custom profiles but they more than my arduino setup and do less.

    I have a 300W on the way to replace the 200W. I can compare it to the 200W and 60w graphs and go from there. I think 200W is the sweet spot, but I can graph to know for sure.

    I am just about done with the interface.. well the first crack anyways. I made some additions and changes. I was able to get the vape to graph the decimal making the graphs less blocky. I like the finer resolution, but I think it was easier to see temp changes with the blocky steps that jumped for each whole number. I also wrapped up the favorite buttons. If I hold the favorite button for 5 seconds it saves the set temp as the new fave.. EZ. I also added a shutdown timer, but I think I want to have the ability to turn that off or on. I have it set that any touch or turn of the knob resets the sleep timer so that is nice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2016
  24. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    Got the 300W all cooked down and the heater is rocking. I had enough paste to keep it wet as it cooked down. I can only see a copper color and no glow in this one. I have yet to do a pid auto-tune which is really hard on the heater having it run at 100% for 30+ seconds. Which reminds me that I plan on adding code to protect the heater as much as possible like not allowing it to be on past X seconds or limiting the amount of on time per minute.

    So I am on the hunt for some type of off relay or power switch I can fire a reset to. The idea would be for it to be a physical safety layer for the system. I basically have a software shutdown where I change the set temp to 0 and keep telling the relay to stay off. I do this when temps exceed a certain number and when the vape has been untouched for a period of time. So the switch would give me another layer past that where I can physically kill the vape. I think it would come in handy, I just haven't found the part yet.

    I like leaving my vape on all the time, but would be nice to save some power and I am forgetful. So having it shut itself off would be nice. Maybe it can shut down in steps over a day? So if I don't touch it for a couple of hours maybe drops to 200F and past 12 hours it physically goes off. I like the idea of it hovering at 200F incase I want to vape again 2 hours after a session to cut down the warmup time and save some power.

    stage 1 - reduce temp to 200F
    stage 2 - reduce temp to 0
    stage 3 - fire the physical off switch

    Hmm or maybe I have 3 sleep modes? Or maybe I just reduce the temp 1 degree every 10 minutes I don't touch it? I'll run it a few ways to find what works and I am probably overthinking it.
     
  25. jojo monkey

    jojo monkey Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    474
    First vid of a hit:
    [​IMG]

    full video:
    https://vid.me/vXfG

    Found the time to put something together. I also wanted to document it before I switch to the arduino.

    I really wanted to capture how fast this vape generates a dense hit.
     

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