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The Baker: By Vaporblunt

Discussion in 'Plug-in Vaporizers' started by TherealVaporblunt, May 21, 2013.

  1. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,885
    Location:
    Other side of your screen
    I just posted the following in the Pinnacle Pro thread, but it applies here too.

    I'm not singling out anyone in particular here, so if your ears burn don't assume I mean just you.

    We have a clear rule against bashing companies. Lately, a lot of members have started to assume that this rule no longer applies since @TherealVaporblunt stopped posting here and several people reported dissatisfaction with their customer service experience. I am here to tell you that this is not the case, and some of you are pushing the boundaries.

    You can report your bad experience but you get one post. It must be respectful and polite. After that, you aren't allowed to bring it up again unless you have new information or a resolution. Likewise, the manufacturer gets one response. These policies are meant to ensure both sides are treated fairly. The threads are not intended for public spats or constant complaints. Please follow the rules and don't make extra work for the staff.

    Finally, some of you need reminding that before VaporBLUNT had problems with the mouthpieces, they were well-liked and highly praised for their service. I agree that they could have handled this better, but to trash the entire product line over the management of this one issue is unwarranted and unfair.

    Edit: This is an official moderator post and comment is not invited.
  2. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    813
    I understand everyone's concerns. I assure you that I would never release a product I felt to be unsafe or unhealthy, but I urge you to follow your gut. If you don't feel comfortable, than there are a ton of great products that offer glass air paths.

    Thank you pak, I brought a lot of this on myself. I will provide much better service from here on out.
  3. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    951
    I appreciate you may think that the materials are safe, but more than enough customers have shown the PES (as well as the study posted in the pnp thread) is not safe in the vapor path.

    The biggest issue with how you have handled this affair, from someone with oodles of experience deliberating on warranties in various consumer electronics - is you guys never respond to specific customer requests. You have never responded to my long asked and legitimate questions about the safety of PES. Many other members have repeatedly questioned this.

    Who told you this material is safe in a vapor path. Are they willing to go on record with exactly what their reason is for this bizarre and on the face of it false idea. In something you inhale air through, you do not want any non herb material deforming/creating it's own vapor during normal operation.

    I only got so livid because you have evaded this discussion which in my,mind as a businessperson is crucial to your business getting further.

    I am glad to see all this talk of making things right with jilted customers - now lets get down to the nitty gritty!

    As you can no doubt see, people here are clued onto the fact that you have a new product. They are just not convinced. If you believe in the product, either show us with a cogent logical argument that the design is safe, and why it does not have such issues as the pnp, or change materials.

    I have always maintained that the bullet concept was good, but your choice of materials has caused safety concerns which have gone utterly unaddressed without any modicum of specific explanation by your company on the nature of the issue. We expect people to defend their products. This is business, not personal.

    Vaporizers get a lot of use sometimes and need to be designed to function properly without cleaning. Also, the entire vapor path should be cleanable with iso/reclaimable, at the moment your choice of plastic again proves problematic.

    Please, respond to these questions and the many others that have emerged whilst you've been avoiding this forum.

    Please also know that we realise you have a new product to market. Keep your answers specific and on-topic. I think i speak for more than myself when i say that marketing is something for after these issues are addressed. You have damaged your business through insufficient action on these issues . Now is the time to clean up the mess.
    CarolKing, $unnyblaq, Kief and 4 others like this.
  4. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    813
    I do not have a new product on the marketplace and I'm not qualified to answer those questions, however I will get you answers and an explanation. The baker has been out for months, check around and you'll see that's a fact. We sold them at the champs show in February, they have been in retail stores for months and available online for months. I believe May 1 was the release for us on retail.

    Trust me, if I were looking to sell the baker I sure the fuck wouldn't do it here in this disgruntled thread ; )

    I intentionally waited until I had a solution to the people that were angry about the pn pro before I posted again, it has nothing to do with baker.

    I will get the information you are asking for to the best of my abilities, but the only question I'm qualified to answer is "who told you...." And that answer is 2 different engineers (I sought a second opinion after the issues with pn pro)
  5. stickstones

    stickstones Wasted Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,935
    I feel like we need to set the tone here. This post above is not the tone we're looking for. It's filled with superlatives and condescension toward a manufacturer that, up until a few months ago, had a stellar rep on this forum for customer service. We beat up on new members who come here and want to play the part of expert because we don't know anything about them, and that's appropriate. You need to establish a reputation before getting the benefit of the doubt. trvb has an established reputation here and, when things go wrong, we should extend a little grace because we know he has historically handled things.

    Yeah trvb fucked up by disappearing, but he has addressed that and is back. I think we should welcome him back and move forward with a positive attitude. This forum is a minor part of his sales and marketing efforts and I can understand why he felt his efforts were better used elsewhere for a while.

    I do not agree that trvb has never addressed the materials questions. They went unanswered for a while in the PN thread, but eventually he got the details out. In his mind and in the minds of his engineers, the materials are safe and he is standing behind that with the recommendation that if you don't agree, buy a different vape. It's that simple...if you don't like plastic, move along.

    Don't forget this forum is a small snapshot of the market. We can have twenty pages of nothing but posting about bad units when the reality is there are thousands out there with very few defective units. I see this all the time around here. Sometimes when shit goes crazy I approach the manufacturer to see how big the problem is. It's almost always small on a global scale.

    Let's give trvb some time to get things back to normal around here without beating him up all the while.
  6. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    951
    I hope that people appreciate that my comments here are very specific, not self-sealing and do explain how my concerns might be addressed. None of this is intended as general ad hominem attacks.

    I don't know these guys personally and who they are personally is not relevant here, I am speaking about the products and their designs specifically. Upon reflection, I wish no ill-will to TVB, but I do believe genuine concerns need to be addressed.

    @TherealVaporblunt I appreciate that these kinds of technical questions must be directed to engineers/scientists and most likely the former, since they are more industry friendly with their lingo and affordable for the purpose. However, these engineers really need to substantiate why they think these are acceptable materials. They also need to be shown the pictures of all the melted pongs just so they don't just argue to avoid having to admit an oversight.

    Noone likes to be wrong, but it is important on these kinds of things that we get it right if we find problems, quickly. Please do not use PES in your airpath in any future products, hell, see if you can get it out of the Baker units in a practical, phased introduction that won't send you guys broke. PES is perfectly cool (pun intended) outside of the airpath though. Still, be judicious, don't use PES to support the mass of heavier connecting parts (for instance holding a gong onto a vape, connecting the pong/pgong/interim gong to the pnp main assembly, etc) or anywhere that might get warm from use. A sturdy vaporizer is a good vaporizer, inside and outside of the airpath! Any customer will tell you this.

    I would like to make polite recommendations to make your products safer. We all just want some honest good faith and due diligence carried out in terms of the sourcing and selection of your materials, especially in the air path. Appropriately glazed ceramic, titanium (preferably gr2 or purer), stainless steel, glass and myriad other materials are safe and delicious when used in air paths.

    Sourcing these materials right now for prototypes myself, I know that plenty of these materials can be sourced at reasonable prices and your customers will hugely appreciate the benefits to taste as well as the peace of mind with regard to safety.

    I must clarify, I am not a competitor, I do not have any commercial ambitions for my vaporizer at this stage or in the future. My scientific work takes precedent.

    I only offer these suggestions to try and turn around what I see as a series of very problematic design decisions. Despite my jadedness with TVB, I have never been able to deny that the bullet design and the PNWT are great concepts/products. This has just made me wish the rest of your designs were on par.

    Hope you understand that there is no need to take these comments personally, I also apologise for getting too irate if anyone feels I have. Really we should keep it to the issues.

    Hopefully this is a reasonably clear post, I have just woken up lol
    CarolKing, grokit, Kief and 2 others like this.
  7. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    813
    I have a meeting tomorrow where I hope to get clarifications on a some of these questions. There is one question or comment that I do know the answer to, and that is the "melted" pongs, it is and always has been our stance that pongs do not melt. The ones that are damaged are degraded (not sure if that's the right word). Even if every single person on here did in fact have a damaged pong, and you multiplied that number by 100 (I picked that number out of thin air) to try to get an idea of how many damaged units are out there, it would still be way less than 1% of our units sold. I'm not denying the problem, I'm just trying to put it in proportion

    Edit: I just got back from cana cup in SF, so my math shouldn't be trusted! I think way less than 1% if you multiply by 100 is a slight exaggeration
  8. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    813
    This is quick cliffs notes of my meeting, I'll fix this post soon.

    The PES ring that's fixed temperature and safety explanation

    Core max is 780 degrees

    Inner temp ceramic reaches max 600 degrees

    Second layer ceramic reaches max 480 degrees

    Where it touches pes around 410 degrees

    Pes tolerance is comfortably 490.
    herbivore21 likes this.
  9. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    951
    Thankyou for getting this information. Can you confirm that this is the same PES in the PNP? Also, are these the same engineers as you worked with on the PNP?

    Now my main concern is with the calculations provided and whether these measurements account for things like atmospheric pressure/ambient temperature. This is a product being sold all around the world after all, these will vary wildly for different customers.

    Every Australian I have known with this product but 2 (out of 6) has had either the pong melting/flaking/chipping into their bullet or the top main housing crack. These environmental variables could be an explanation of why. I can also confirm that neither of these issues have happened to two users, who have never used their pnp over setting 2 (one of them occasionally used setting 3). It seems as if settings 4 and 5 are the culprits for melting.

    I am sure you can appreciate as an engineer/scientist myself who has owned one of your previous products and had melting/cracking take place, I would be very wary of buying a product which uses the same PES near a hotter element. So are most folks here, I would venture to guess. Other customers outside of this website are generally much less engaged with these aspects of their vaporizers and generally will just vape on despite plastic melting. The only health knowledge the average off-the-street vapist you will find has about their vape is what the manufacturer tells them. They get a bit of melted/deformed/flaked plastic on their PNP and the manufacturer tells them it is nothing to worry about, they vape on as if it never happened.

    Especially if they bought your product to quit smoking (which means they are used to harsh taste/dryness similar to that which comes with plastic heat deforming in a vapor path lol).
    FlyingLow and Kief like this.
  10. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    813
    I'll check on that for you

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