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The Baker: By Vaporblunt

Discussion in 'Plug-in Vaporizers' started by TherealVaporblunt, May 21, 2013.

  1. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,236
    Location:
    Other side of your screen
    I just posted the following in the Pinnacle Pro thread, but it applies here too.

    I'm not singling out anyone in particular here, so if your ears burn don't assume I mean just you.

    We have a clear rule against bashing companies. Lately, a lot of members have started to assume that this rule no longer applies since @TherealVaporblunt stopped posting here and several people reported dissatisfaction with their customer service experience. I am here to tell you that this is not the case, and some of you are pushing the boundaries.

    You can report your bad experience but you get one post. It must be respectful and polite. After that, you aren't allowed to bring it up again unless you have new information or a resolution. Likewise, the manufacturer gets one response. These policies are meant to ensure both sides are treated fairly. The threads are not intended for public spats or constant complaints. Please follow the rules and don't make extra work for the staff.

    Finally, some of you need reminding that before VaporBLUNT had problems with the mouthpieces, they were well-liked and highly praised for their service. I agree that they could have handled this better, but to trash the entire product line over the management of this one issue is unwarranted and unfair.

    Edit: This is an official moderator post and comment is not invited.
     
  2. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    837
    I understand everyone's concerns. I assure you that I would never release a product I felt to be unsafe or unhealthy, but I urge you to follow your gut. If you don't feel comfortable, than there are a ton of great products that offer glass air paths.

    Thank you pak, I brought a lot of this on myself. I will provide much better service from here on out.
     
  3. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    1,031
    I appreciate you may think that the materials are safe, but more than enough customers have shown the PES (as well as the study posted in the pnp thread) is not safe in the vapor path.

    The biggest issue with how you have handled this affair, from someone with oodles of experience deliberating on warranties in various consumer electronics - is you guys never respond to specific customer requests. You have never responded to my long asked and legitimate questions about the safety of PES. Many other members have repeatedly questioned this.

    Who told you this material is safe in a vapor path. Are they willing to go on record with exactly what their reason is for this bizarre and on the face of it false idea. In something you inhale air through, you do not want any non herb material deforming/creating it's own vapor during normal operation.

    I only got so livid because you have evaded this discussion which in my,mind as a businessperson is crucial to your business getting further.

    I am glad to see all this talk of making things right with jilted customers - now lets get down to the nitty gritty!

    As you can no doubt see, people here are clued onto the fact that you have a new product. They are just not convinced. If you believe in the product, either show us with a cogent logical argument that the design is safe, and why it does not have such issues as the pnp, or change materials.

    I have always maintained that the bullet concept was good, but your choice of materials has caused safety concerns which have gone utterly unaddressed without any modicum of specific explanation by your company on the nature of the issue. We expect people to defend their products. This is business, not personal.

    Vaporizers get a lot of use sometimes and need to be designed to function properly without cleaning. Also, the entire vapor path should be cleanable with iso/reclaimable, at the moment your choice of plastic again proves problematic.

    Please, respond to these questions and the many others that have emerged whilst you've been avoiding this forum.

    Please also know that we realise you have a new product to market. Keep your answers specific and on-topic. I think i speak for more than myself when i say that marketing is something for after these issues are addressed. You have damaged your business through insufficient action on these issues . Now is the time to clean up the mess.
     
    CarolKing, $unnyblaq, Kief and 4 others like this.
  4. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    837
    I do not have a new product on the marketplace and I'm not qualified to answer those questions, however I will get you answers and an explanation. The baker has been out for months, check around and you'll see that's a fact. We sold them at the champs show in February, they have been in retail stores for months and available online for months. I believe May 1 was the release for us on retail.

    Trust me, if I were looking to sell the baker I sure the fuck wouldn't do it here in this disgruntled thread ; )

    I intentionally waited until I had a solution to the people that were angry about the pn pro before I posted again, it has nothing to do with baker.

    I will get the information you are asking for to the best of my abilities, but the only question I'm qualified to answer is "who told you...." And that answer is 2 different engineers (I sought a second opinion after the issues with pn pro)
     
  5. stickstones

    stickstones Wasted Staff Member

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    8,198
    I feel like we need to set the tone here. This post above is not the tone we're looking for. It's filled with superlatives and condescension toward a manufacturer that, up until a few months ago, had a stellar rep on this forum for customer service. We beat up on new members who come here and want to play the part of expert because we don't know anything about them, and that's appropriate. You need to establish a reputation before getting the benefit of the doubt. trvb has an established reputation here and, when things go wrong, we should extend a little grace because we know he has historically handled things.

    Yeah trvb fucked up by disappearing, but he has addressed that and is back. I think we should welcome him back and move forward with a positive attitude. This forum is a minor part of his sales and marketing efforts and I can understand why he felt his efforts were better used elsewhere for a while.

    I do not agree that trvb has never addressed the materials questions. They went unanswered for a while in the PN thread, but eventually he got the details out. In his mind and in the minds of his engineers, the materials are safe and he is standing behind that with the recommendation that if you don't agree, buy a different vape. It's that simple...if you don't like plastic, move along.

    Don't forget this forum is a small snapshot of the market. We can have twenty pages of nothing but posting about bad units when the reality is there are thousands out there with very few defective units. I see this all the time around here. Sometimes when shit goes crazy I approach the manufacturer to see how big the problem is. It's almost always small on a global scale.

    Let's give trvb some time to get things back to normal around here without beating him up all the while.
     
  6. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    1,031
    I hope that people appreciate that my comments here are very specific, not self-sealing and do explain how my concerns might be addressed. None of this is intended as general ad hominem attacks.

    I don't know these guys personally and who they are personally is not relevant here, I am speaking about the products and their designs specifically. Upon reflection, I wish no ill-will to TVB, but I do believe genuine concerns need to be addressed.

    @TherealVaporblunt I appreciate that these kinds of technical questions must be directed to engineers/scientists and most likely the former, since they are more industry friendly with their lingo and affordable for the purpose. However, these engineers really need to substantiate why they think these are acceptable materials. They also need to be shown the pictures of all the melted pongs just so they don't just argue to avoid having to admit an oversight.

    Noone likes to be wrong, but it is important on these kinds of things that we get it right if we find problems, quickly. Please do not use PES in your airpath in any future products, hell, see if you can get it out of the Baker units in a practical, phased introduction that won't send you guys broke. PES is perfectly cool (pun intended) outside of the airpath though. Still, be judicious, don't use PES to support the mass of heavier connecting parts (for instance holding a gong onto a vape, connecting the pong/pgong/interim gong to the pnp main assembly, etc) or anywhere that might get warm from use. A sturdy vaporizer is a good vaporizer, inside and outside of the airpath! Any customer will tell you this.

    I would like to make polite recommendations to make your products safer. We all just want some honest good faith and due diligence carried out in terms of the sourcing and selection of your materials, especially in the air path. Appropriately glazed ceramic, titanium (preferably gr2 or purer), stainless steel, glass and myriad other materials are safe and delicious when used in air paths.

    Sourcing these materials right now for prototypes myself, I know that plenty of these materials can be sourced at reasonable prices and your customers will hugely appreciate the benefits to taste as well as the peace of mind with regard to safety.

    I must clarify, I am not a competitor, I do not have any commercial ambitions for my vaporizer at this stage or in the future. My scientific work takes precedent.

    I only offer these suggestions to try and turn around what I see as a series of very problematic design decisions. Despite my jadedness with TVB, I have never been able to deny that the bullet design and the PNWT are great concepts/products. This has just made me wish the rest of your designs were on par.

    Hope you understand that there is no need to take these comments personally, I also apologise for getting too irate if anyone feels I have. Really we should keep it to the issues.

    Hopefully this is a reasonably clear post, I have just woken up lol
     
    KidFated., CarolKing, grokit and 3 others like this.
  7. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    837
    I have a meeting tomorrow where I hope to get clarifications on a some of these questions. There is one question or comment that I do know the answer to, and that is the "melted" pongs, it is and always has been our stance that pongs do not melt. The ones that are damaged are degraded (not sure if that's the right word). Even if every single person on here did in fact have a damaged pong, and you multiplied that number by 100 (I picked that number out of thin air) to try to get an idea of how many damaged units are out there, it would still be way less than 1% of our units sold. I'm not denying the problem, I'm just trying to put it in proportion

    Edit: I just got back from cana cup in SF, so my math shouldn't be trusted! I think way less than 1% if you multiply by 100 is a slight exaggeration
     
  8. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    837
    This is quick cliffs notes of my meeting, I'll fix this post soon.

    The PES ring that's fixed temperature and safety explanation

    Core max is 780 degrees

    Inner temp ceramic reaches max 600 degrees

    Second layer ceramic reaches max 480 degrees

    Where it touches pes around 410 degrees

    Pes tolerance is comfortably 490.
     
    herbivore21 likes this.
  9. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,031
    Thankyou for getting this information. Can you confirm that this is the same PES in the PNP? Also, are these the same engineers as you worked with on the PNP?

    Now my main concern is with the calculations provided and whether these measurements account for things like atmospheric pressure/ambient temperature. This is a product being sold all around the world after all, these will vary wildly for different customers.

    Every Australian I have known with this product but 2 (out of 6) has had either the pong melting/flaking/chipping into their bullet or the top main housing crack. These environmental variables could be an explanation of why. I can also confirm that neither of these issues have happened to two users, who have never used their pnp over setting 2 (one of them occasionally used setting 3). It seems as if settings 4 and 5 are the culprits for melting.

    I am sure you can appreciate as an engineer/scientist myself who has owned one of your previous products and had melting/cracking take place, I would be very wary of buying a product which uses the same PES near a hotter element. So are most folks here, I would venture to guess. Other customers outside of this website are generally much less engaged with these aspects of their vaporizers and generally will just vape on despite plastic melting. The only health knowledge the average off-the-street vapist you will find has about their vape is what the manufacturer tells them. They get a bit of melted/deformed/flaked plastic on their PNP and the manufacturer tells them it is nothing to worry about, they vape on as if it never happened.

    Especially if they bought your product to quit smoking (which means they are used to harsh taste/dryness similar to that which comes with plastic heat deforming in a vapor path lol).
     
    FlyingLow and Kief like this.
  10. TherealVaporblunt

    TherealVaporblunt Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    837
    I'll check on that for you
     
  11. jrk4d

    jrk4d Member

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    14
    I think i would like to answer for Vaporblunt due to absence. I've read this thread start to finish over the past few days. (Was sold by page 17 and ordered before any issues were brought up.) From what I have read, there has been only one complaint on this forum with regards to the actual baker. The baker mentioned was purchased second hand, for a sum of 130. That one sounds like someone got ripped off and is pissed rather than an actual faulty product. Everyone's issue is with the PNP which is a portable unit... people are saying the plastic is cracking and melting at the 5 temp. The only person that has a picture posted on this feed of the faulty mouthpiece on the PNP looks exactly what Vaporblunt said the mouthpiece should not look like. There was tons of oil or wax residue all over the piece. The buildup is caused by oil vapor cooling within the mouthpiece. When you use flowers, the buildup is not even close to the same. If you allow several layers to build up, and have a prolonged session with high temps, the plastic of the mouthpiece will never touch the vapor. you will have oil residue being heated by more hot vapor. If the hot wax residue sits in the mouthpiece for long periods, it seems impossible to avoid damage. The moral of all this is to tell the Pinnacle Pro haters that Vaporblunt has given legitimate answers based on what I've read. If you are going to use wax with a portable, be aware of what you are using. The Pinnacle uses plastic on the mouthpiece and residue will build up much more so than a glass mouthpiece. Vaporblunt has yet to produce a vape with a anything other than plastic. Stop asking them for glass. Like he said, the plastic is FDA approved. If you don't believe his engineers there are plenty of other problems.

    As for the Baker "heat issues." This forum is about the only place online to find a good discussion on this particular product. No other youtube videos, or really reviews from anyone at all. based on what i have seen from BlazingOG's vids, this is a vape that can be dialed in as well as any whip on the market plus the neat dabs feature. People on here keep asking about the plastic and parts on this thing heating up. Herbivore21, I do not mean to call you out in any way but you are the most recent post so i guess this is just an answer to your questions. If pes tolorance is 490, there should be no issue ever. vaping dry flowers above 450 is not in any way beneficial other than making thinker clouds. Nearly all resins contained within dry flowers will vaporize just over 400F. I know everyone wants huge thick clouds like BlazingOG, but he's even telling you that he's using such high temps to illustrate the potential lungbusting potential of the product. I understand everyone wants to be able to have the product hit temp and be able to rip like a hookah, but for this unit that was obviously not the designers intent. when using the pong with or without the whip do as BlazingOG suggests, let your bullet heat soak. wait 20 to 30 seconds before rips and take your time! Enjoy some flavor and wait for the effects rather than racing. This unit can be used quickly as BlazingOG showed us, but I believe based on what i've seen and read that this unit will produce as claimed.

    Back to the safety "issues" with using the same plastic as PNP. If a person does not use the pong above 450 there will be no issue ever. when using dabs and the dome, everyone seems to be worried about the thin plastic layer just inside the glass. Several people on here seem to know a thing or two about science, but no one understands heat..

    Herbivore21- It does not matter if the same materials are used in this as the PNP. This handheld unit heated up to 470F.(much hotter than what is practical for dry flowers) In the PNP mouthpiece photo on this forum, the damaged mouthpiece looks exactly what the user error damage Vaporblunt described earlier. If you don't use the pong abot 450, again, not an issue.

    As for the vapor dome. the Titanium bullet, having no screen, uses 0 convection. the core of the unit and bullet itself are the only things heating up to the 780. the insulating ceramic surrounding the chamber hits 600 while the outer core hits only 480. Even when you put a dab in the bullet at 780F and all that vapor explodes out last for around 3-5 seconds. Any moment the dab hole is not covered, there is more ambient air being sucked through that large carb hole and cooling the temp inside the dome very efficiently. Even BlazingOG's very impressive and large dab clouds last a few seconds. there is no slow hot baking vapor sitting in airways or mouthpieces like in the PNP. So based on everything I've read, I will admittedly not be jumping in line for a PNP anytime soon. But no one here has been able to provide any factual information that would change my mind about my order.

    Im a brand new member so I apologize for offending anyone. BlazingOG- Awesome videos, thank you for your helpful pics, words, and vids
    Stickstones- All good input, very well thought out responses.
    Herbivore21- Very good questions for vaporblunt
    TheRealVaporblunt- Owner of palm 2.0, and looking forward to trying out my baker.
     
    stickstones likes this.
  12. llamaman001

    llamaman001 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    939
    lol how did I get ripped off when I paid less than what it was going to retail for? Im not pissed about anything and bought it on a whim with the intention of pushing it to its limits and then taking it apart to see what it was exactly and how it was built. You definitely got the wrong impression from my posts, guy.
     
  13. jrk4d

    jrk4d Member

    Messages:
    14
    Sorry if i came of rude in my post. The point of the comment i made meant more that this was a secondhand product you had no way of knowing if it worked as it did out of the factory. I believe you were aware of the risks involved in making a purchase like this, but as you said, you paid half of retail and were more interested in the guts and learning how it works than getting your hands on the best possible product. My post was already very long and i figured if it got any wordier then people would skip over it. But i understand what you meant in your post, i was unclear in my and again my apologies
     
    llamaman001 and stickstones like this.
  14. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    4,680
    Location:
    Oregon
    I agree with you here, plenty of "problems" indeed. Your post ignores the degrading PonGs we had with the OG Pinnacle. Also, when the "plastic" starts to degrade when exposed to ISO like mine did you can't guarantee its safety any more imho.
     
    RUDE BOY likes this.
  15. jrk4d

    jrk4d Member

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    14
    haha sorry about the typo. Obviously meant products but plastic is not meant to be cleaned with ISO. Any plastic product, whether used for vaping or the plastic on an xbox would become brittle and porous when exposed to ISO. And like I stated in my first post. I'm defending the baker. I've done next to no research on is as i am not interested in a portable unit at this time. But for the OG Pinnacle, use warm water to clean pieces and use concentrates in another device. Like I said Im on here defending the baker simply because people have tried to associate the PNP problems with the baker when the units simply operate too differently at high temps to compare. Above 450 on the baker dome it up.( Not saying do dabs at 470) While whith the PNP and OG Pinnacle the vapor goes through the entirely plastic mouthpiece very slowly and sits there when you are done drawing. the baker never lets the vapor touch the plasic long. Even in Blazing OG's videos where he is heat soaking his bullets, almost not vapor escapes through the pong because no convection occurs until you start to draw.
     
  16. stickstones

    stickstones Wasted Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,198
    So can we agree that both problems are user error (going forward), fully respecting that neither the use nor the error were forewarned?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2014
    llamaman001 and jrk4d like this.
  17. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,238
    Location:
    S. California
    Hey @TherealVaporblunt, I'm curious, Did you make it to the LA cannabis cup this year?? Also, Did you place for an award?
     
  18. jrk4d

    jrk4d Member

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    14
    I think that sounds like a good way to define it stickstones!
     
  19. stickstones

    stickstones Wasted Staff Member

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    8,198
    For the record, I found your post to be well thought out and communicated, and a good summary. Thank you.
     
    KidFated. likes this.
  20. jrk4d

    jrk4d Member

    Messages:
    14
    Happy to revive the conversation if only for a bit. Mine is in the mail and I would love to see some reports of BAKER users now that the product has actually been available to the public for a few months. Still only seem to see info from beta testers. Ill have feedback up by Tuesday night. Hope to see more videos. Would love to see a whip session with a good heat soak, long slow draws, and at least 30 seconds between rips!! Ive only been able to find use with a waterpipe and with the oil dome.
     
    scarlettohaira and poonman like this.
  21. llamaman001

    llamaman001 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    939
    No problem jrk4d. Im glad this post was revived and I hope to hear of more people using it because so far I dont think anyone here has reviewed an actual production unit, if Im not mistaken so yours will be the first. Im interested to hear what you have to say about it when you get it! Ill be keeping an eye on this thread now that it has some activity.
     
    poonman likes this.
  22. jrk4d

    jrk4d Member

    Messages:
    14
    Hello to all the vaporblunt lovers and haters. I just deleted an extremely long review of the baker I just got in the mail by mistake, so this is going to be a condensed version!

    Baker arrived in mail today and the folks at therealvaporblunt have listened.
    -llamaman001 the plastic shell on my baker feels very durable. There is no give to the plastic as you described and I am confident by the feel of the materials this device could survive reasonable falls at least as well as its competitors.
    -the plastic pong "issues" The pong provided has the exact look, feel, and sound(lighly flicking with my fingernail) as a slighlty thinner version of the shaved glass on the slides to my waterpipe. This is either glass or extremely high quality plasic. the 14mm adapter remains the same plasic you expect from vaporblunt.
    -The glass dome now fits snug as can be! Absolutely no chance of it coming off during a session. your more likely to rip the vape of the table than the dome off the unit.

    just had my first session with the baker. I was supposed to have a waterpipe come in the mail yesterday, but thats USPS for you. So for today I am just using the whip.

    I turned on my baker and set it to 375. Packed a the flower bullet 3/4 full non pressed and without an extra screen as you see with Blazing OG. After loading the bullet, attaching the pong, and the whip to the pong, I gave the flowers a good 35 seconds or so before my first rip. I start with 3 long, slow, and steady draws. Wispy vapor, but good full hits PACKED WITH FLAVOR. Great tasting vape at low temps. after the herbs sat in the chamber for a good 3 minutes, the vapor density began to build. I no longer needed to take slow draws to get this vapor. The tasty bits were gone and that tiniest hit of burnt popcorn threatening its presence, but overall still very tasty vapor. I continued to draw and receive dense hits until the popcorn face did eventually show up, but after close to 20 very good rips. I pulled the bullet out and everything was completely perfect. Every bit was the same color as the brown package the baker came in through the mail. I can still see resin looking through my magnifying glass so I'll throw that ABV in later tonight and crank up the heat over 400 to help me sleep. As for right now I am super upbeat and ready for the rest of the day! I will be trying the baker out with my waterpipe as soon as it gets here and let everyone know how easy it is to duplicate Blazing OG's results with the commercial units. I'll wait to do oil until the pipe gets here as well. This is not the PNP. I can't say based on one session that this product will never have problems, but the design of the PNP is completely irrelevant to the baker. I encourage people to give this vape a shot. For 249 there are several vapes that do lots of different things. That price range seems to be the all-in-one catagory for some reason. If you can live without a balloon and don't have $500+ for a home vape, this is your product. This thing is the real FUCKING deal.
     
    lookhigh, stickstones and FlyingLow like this.
  23. FlyingLow

    FlyingLow Team NO SLEEP!

    Messages:
    1,296
    I appreciate your posting your impression and review.

    So that we have some context for your review, I am curious what other vapes do you own [or have tried] that you are comparing it to? It is all subjective, I am just curious.

    I have had many a friend, myself included, that believed their (insert name here) was "the real fucking deal," until they tried other units and gained more experience.
     
    lookhigh likes this.
  24. jrk4d

    jrk4d Member

    Messages:
    14
    Currently own a Palm 2.0, have owned extreme q 4.0( parts get hot, not impressed with vapor quailty from whip or balloon), regularly used ssv, and pax. Have used a volcano 3 or 4 times total.
     
  25. FlyingLow

    FlyingLow Team NO SLEEP!

    Messages:
    1,296
    Thanks; it adds a bit of color :cool:
     

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