The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

[yogoshio]

I am all about paying taxes, I am all about bridges, roads, etc. They are the necessary infrastructure for growth, trade, and maintaining sanitary living.

I am all about helping people as well.

What I am NOT about is waste, flagrant disregard for the taxpayer, and horrific inefficiencies costing the government millions and millions of dollars in unproductive and floundering programs.

My argument against more taxation has nothing to do with a lack of desire or think that any government is bad and in the way. It has everything to do with the fact that they SUCK WITH IT. Get good at it, and then lets talk. Build trust, rebuild structure and faith in the system, and I'm all in.

You took what I said completely out of context. Don't pigeon-hole me based on what you think I said.

 

[CarolKing]

The United States taxpayers just paid 7 million dollars for the Benghazie 2 year nvestigation. Our tax money at work. The republicans were hoping to find out all kinds of bad stuff about the Obama administration and Hillary. Screw things up for the Democrats so they wouldn't win the White House again. Everything is always so politically motivated. It looks like there is closure.

Nothing earth shattering was found.

 

[Maitri]

This nation is not a compassionate country. We protect and honor guns, but accept homelessness and failed schools (see what is the matter with Kansas- a real world laboratory of F*ck$d-&p Republican TAX-LESS-ness. Google is your friend.)

Okay, two things:

First, I think you just inspired my serious man-crush on you.

And second (and in my opinion), Arron Sorkin said it best through the voice of Toby Ziegler when he described what government could be:

Edit: I make it a point to never argue with Aaron Sorkin when he is right.

 

[cybrguy]

The United States taxpayers just paid 7 million dollars for the Benghazie 2 year nvestigation.

And how much for the other 7 investigations? $40M or $50M all in? Welcome to what republicans do instead of governing...

Nothing earth shattering was found.

Nothing new AT ALL was found.

I am all about paying taxes, I am all about bridges, roads, etc. They are the necessary infrastructure for growth, trade, and maintaining sanitary living.

I am all about helping people as well.

What I am NOT about is waste, flagrant disregard for the taxpayer, and horrific inefficiencies costing the government millions and millions of dollars in unproductive and floundering programs.

Believe me, @yogoshio, I am completely with you on improving the efficiency of both spending tax dollars and collecting tax dollars. I just don't believe for a second that "charity" is an adequate way to get funding for the poor and otherwise needy, or that folks are universally charitable enough to not need government support in providing for those who need it. Especially while still recovering from the 2008-10 collapse.

But, charity will never get close to paying for medical care for the poor or social security, disability, and other programs that pay for care that is beyond the reach of many Americans.

And while YOU may be "all about bridges, roads, etc.", the Republican party who is in charge of the money apparently is not.

 

[Maitri]

I am all about paying taxes, I am all about bridges, roads, etc. They are the necessary infrastructure for growth, trade, and maintaining sanitary living.

I am all about helping people as well.

What I am NOT about is waste, flagrant disregard for the taxpayer, and horrific inefficiencies costing the government millions and millions of dollars in unproductive and floundering programs.

My argument against more taxation has nothing to do with a lack of desire or think that any government is bad and in the way. It has everything to do with the fact that they SUCK WITH IT. Get good at it, and then lets talk. Build trust, rebuild structure and faith in the system, and I'm all in.

You took what I said completely out of context. Don't pigeon-hole me based on what you think I said.

I am confused. On the one hand, you are all about taxes that are devoted to certain kinds of projects while on the other hand, you believe the government "suck(s) at it," and presumably the "it" to which you refer is fiscal responsibility. If the government sucks at it (whatever your it refers to), why or how would the government be more qualified to build roads and bridges rather than programs that help people directly? If this really is such a big problem, maybe the government should privitize virtually everything except an elected skeleton crew to oversee it - but even that seems like an insurmountable problem for an inept government. What on earth should we do? Is there any viable solution here?

 

[cybrguy]

And second (and in my opinion), Arron Sorkin said it best through the voice of Toby Ziegler when he described what government could be:


Edit: I make it a point to never argue with Aaron Sorkin when he is right.

I LOVE Sorkin. He is a Republican by the way. And as powerful as he was in the American President and in West Wing, nothing he has done has touched me more that the first 8 minutes of The Newsroom...

 

[yogoshio]

If we would apply efficiency principles (similar to what many non-profits currently do to maximize their spend) and use programs like Six Sigma and KanBan events to reduce redundancies and actually hold government employees accountable instead of lifetime appointments.

I want the government to spend tax dollars on every program efficiently. If they did, I wouldn't be so upset when they discuss taking more, if it were actually going to have the desired affect. However, in my lifetime, they haven't. None of the massive spending programs the government has gone into has had the desired result. Even the New Deal failed. My senior thesis was about the only thing that drew us out of the great depression was monetary intervention by the fed. The spending programs didn't create any lasting result. Or, as I have mentioned before, the 22 trillion dollars we've spent on the War on Poverty that hasn't accomplished anything near its goal in 70 years.

I also don't think government jobs should be so easy to hold without producing results. It should be competitive, at least in that if people aren't producing or improving their programs, they should be replaced. If I wasn't selling my stuff effectively, I'd lose my job. That doesn't carry over into many government roles.

And, I think government elected officials should receive minimum pay, or average national income. If you are doing it for a job, then you're not going to govern, or give a shit, or have any incentive to fix things. Just get the never ending paychecks and lifetime health insurance.

These are at least some steps we can take to make government more efficient and start to rebuild trust. But hey, I'm just a crazy libertarian.

 

[Maitri]

I LOVE Sorkin. He is a Republican by the way.

Ack! How do you know?

And as powerful as he was in the American President and in West Wing, nothing he has done has touched me more that the first 8 minutes of The Newsroom...

Excellent choice! I loved that scene.

I was trying to think of a scene I like s much as that one and oddly enough, the first one I thought of was also in the first episode of one of his shows:

Honor thy father is the THIRD commandment!

Then what is the first commandment?

I am the lord your God. Thou shall worship no other God before me.

 

[lwien]

Ack! How do you know?

“I'm a registered Republican. I only seem liberal because I believe that hurricanes are caused by high barometric pressure and not gay marriage."
-----Aaron Sorkin

 

[cybrguy]

Well Damn, now I have to post my OTHER favorite...

 

[Maitri]

“I'm a registered Republican. I only seem liberal because I believe that hurricanes are caused by high barometric pressure and not gay marriage."
-----Aaron Sorkin

Thank you!

Any chance you can cite your source? NOT because I do not trust you but because that way I can cite mine when I tell a few friends who might be surprised...

 

[grokit]

If we would apply efficiency principles (similar to what many non-profits currently do to maximize their spend) and use programs like Six Sigma and KanBan events to reduce redundancies and actually hold government employees accountable instead of lifetime appointments.

I want the government to spend tax dollars on every program efficiently. If they did, I wouldn't be so upset when they discuss taking more, if it were actually going to have the desired affect. However, in my lifetime, they haven't. None of the massive spending programs the government has gone into has had the desired result. Even the New Deal failed. My senior thesis was about the only thing that drew us out of the great depression was monetary intervention by the fed. The spending programs didn't create any lasting result. Or, as I have mentioned before, the 22 trillion dollars we've spent on the War on Poverty that hasn't accomplished anything near its goal in 70 years.

I also don't think government jobs should be so easy to hold without producing results. It should be competitive, at least in that if people aren't producing or improving their programs, they should be replaced. If I wasn't selling my stuff effectively, I'd lose my job. That doesn't carry over into many government roles.

And, I think government elected officials should receive minimum pay, or average national income. If you are doing it for a job, then you're not going to govern, or give a shit, or have any incentive to fix things. Just get the never ending paychecks and lifetime health insurance.

These are at least some steps we can take to make government more efficient and start to rebuild trust. But hey, I'm just a crazy libertarian.

This actually reads a lot like a (candidate) reagan speech. Not judging, just saying I've heard this before.

 

[ClearBlueLou]

sorry

 

[ClearBlueLou]

sorry again...I'll learn....

 

[ClearBlueLou]

Thank you!

Any chance you can cite your source? NOT because I do not trust you but because that way I can cite mine when I tell a few friends who might be surprised...

Sorkin-written dialogue for the character 'Will McAvoy' on "The Newsroom"...if you have not seen...well-worth the time

This actually reads a lot like a (candidate) reagan speech. Not judging, just saying I've heard this before.

Yes, the ancient boilerplate of proto-neocon thinking

 

[yogoshio]

Yes, the ancient boilerplate of proto-neocon thinking

Ah yes, name calling. That'll solve everything!

 

[Maitri]

Sorkin-written dialogue for the character 'Will McAvoy' on "The Newsroom"...if you have not seen...well-worth the time

Thank you. I have seen TNR and pretty much everything else AS wrote. However, I was asking someone to cite their source for a Sorkin quote - NOT the source of the script from which a Sorkin line was quoted. It seems like there is a world of difference between the two.

 

[ClearBlueLou]

Do you think the ideas and positions you espouse in your posts are somehow new?

I called no names - old ideas are old.

 

[Silat]

(oh good lord I can't believe I'm about to argue in favor of something related to Trump, but I feel this is one instance where its worth it. JUST ONCE)

I think one thing this article overlooks is that what Trump wants to do to get skilled workers back to work is make America more competitive in terms of cost vs outcomes. Companies ship jobs overseas for efficiency, taxation, and cash flow reasons, not some lack of patriotism and ingratitude. If their products were more expensive Americans would buy something else, plain and simple. It's happened time and time again.

If we could bring back those jobs because we are both more effective and efficient in house, then it would be a win-win. Companies would bring back those jobs and they wouldn't move money overseas into tax havens.

Those are the arguments Trump is making, and while he has most definitely pushed jobs overseas, I am not so sure we should blame the companies for responding to what consumers demand. That's OUR fault. If we actually gave a shit we would all buy American made no matter what. But then again, none of us would have a TV... (last tv made in the USA was circa 1995, when Zenith shut down their last plant, although I think LG has been making some here recently)

I didn't hear the whole speech, I hate Trump, and I hate his lying fat hair, but just taking those words in part is where I come to this argument.

Bleh, I need a shower.

Vote Johnson! Oh... that feels better...

LOL but Drumpf has his clothing line made overseas and he flip flops so much that it makes one dizzy.
He is not the only one who has talked about bring jobs back.
What is his plan exactly? I cannot wait to hear it.

 

[CarolKing]

Trump is the king of hipocrosy. Telling us how we need to manufacture at home. Yes but we don't need him telling us. He also says things one day and retracts them the next. Not over a period of time but sometimes hours later. Remember how he was going to penalize women who get abortions? He retracted that just a few hours later when everyone went crazy about it.

He's all for cannabis now. What happens a year from now when Chris Christy is his Sec of State.

I think Bernie needs to get on board a little more. He's starting to look like a spoiler. I'm really sorry that he didn't make the nomination. It's time to move on. It must be really disappointing for him, he worked so hard. That might be part of it, he's getting used to the idea.

It's like Elizabeth Warren is rallying like Bernie needs to be doing. I suppose that would make him look hypocritical.

 

[gangababa]

New Deal Big Deal No lasting results

The libertarians of the time, regressive conservative business interests*, forced austerity upon Roosevelt 2nd term and set back the recovery. Furthermore, it was the great make work program called the lend lease program that fueled the economy.

*freedom for the few, famine for the many, magic of the market
Today it is the carried interest tax loop hole

 

[grokit]

 

[Silat]

Hey Silat, you are gonna get an ulcer if you keep holding back like that...

Nah. I am too old for that. I love attacking the reich.

 

[Silat]

Trump is the king of hipocrosy. Telling us how we need to manufacture at home. Yes but we don't need him telling us. He also says things one day and retracts them the next. Not over a period of time but sometimes hours later. Remember how he was going to penalize women who get abortions? He retracted that just a few hours later when everyone went crazy about it.

He's all for cannabis now. What happens a year from now when Chris Christy is his Sec of State.

I think Bernie needs to get on board a little more. He's starting to look like a spoiler. I'm really sorry that he didn't make the nomination. It's time to move on. It must be really disappointing for him, he worked so hard. That might be part of it, he's getting used to the idea.

It's like Elizabeth Warren is rallying like Bernie needs to be doing. I suppose that would make him look hypocritical.

I agree about Bernie. But, he has still done good. He took the progressive movement and gave it some life. He got the DNC to adopt some progressive wants to its platform. That is progress. Change takes time and I really believe that in 10 years progressives will be the strongest voice in the DNC.
I was not aiming that at you Carol.

 

[Silat]

I LOVE Sorkin. He is a Republican by the way. And as powerful as he was in the American President and in West Wing, nothing he has done has touched me more that the first 8 minutes of The Newsroom...

Sorkin a repube? I think not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Sorkin