Sublimation

[Slightly Medicated]

I actually mix THC and CBD. I usually take a CBD strain and mix it with my usual Indica strain. Sometimes I don't want any THC because I don't want the psychoactive effects. It all depends on the end result you are looking for. Many of the people I am around don't want to feel the psychoactive effects of the cannabis at all. For them they don't want to get high... they want the pain reducing effects.

The THC/CBD ratio is just the starting point for me. I am more interested in Terpene effects anyway. I tend to seek out certain profiles of strains give me better effects. I tend to find one type of terpene profile that works for me and stick to it. I used one strain for a few years for 90% of my medicating needs... until I lost access to it. Now i user another strain almost exclusively... and it has a very similar terp profile.

There are many different way to get the desired effects you need. I found a system that works for me, and I know others who are doing similar medicating regimes to me. I also know some people that medicate on the opposite end of the spectrum. That is the beauty of the plant, it can be used so many different way to treat so many different conditions.

 

[luchiano]

thanks, luchiano. good find on the info/articles. i think your analysis is correct. i wonder if the much higher temperature of a cigarette creating the MS vapor (1200°F) change the dynamics of the vapor and the effect on the alveoli.

I don't know, but it probably makes it more toxic to the alveoli.

 

[vap999]

A major problem with much discussion, originating from the manufacturer and continuing with others, including now being further disseminated by vendors, goes beyond the simply totally wrong terminology (and fraudulent claims, when marketing hype is parsed for meaning), and extends to the core physical processes involved. Many commenters have much the same wrong presumptions.

We are dealing with thermal desorption, rapid heating-forced detachment and then evaporation (becoming vapor suspended in air) of active agents that at ambient temperatures are sticky oils (liquids) mostly strongly adsorbed onto (attached to/gunked onto) plant matter (cellulose fibrils, trichomes, etc.). I can somewhat understand how (ignoring the facts/science/terminology) this could be interpreted as the active agent being in the solid state, with this the source for "sublimation" claims.

Then, as with all vaporized liquids (unless in a very disperse state and/or very high temperature, not relevant here), the VAPOR IS NOT A GAS! VAPOR IS AN AEROSOL, a suspension, involving rapidly-condensing liquid globules suspended/floating in the air, a gas. The desired active agents we all know are very very sticky - adhere to anything, including surfaces and any similar nano or micro-droplets (themselves). "Vaporization" does not involve the vaporized liquids ever effectively existing as single detached molecules dispersed (a gas dissolved) in the air! Rather, whether water/steam or herbal vapors, vaporized liquids immediately form aerosols composed of suspended particles/droplets. Any actual single gas-phase molecules (vs. nano-droplets), if ever even generated by wimpy vaporization temperatures, that coexist with the predominant nano/micro droplets in the vaporizer air flow immediately stick to each other (condense), forming ever-larger droplets suspended in the air.

If one loosely reinterprets some of what's been stated in this context, e.g., substitutes or thinks in terms of aerosols rather than gasses, and presumably controlled revaporization/aerosol reformation from reheating of vapor (likely reforming smaller particle vapor; which seems to be the real advance here), rather than 'demolecularization' (with all the action involving nano- and micro-sized aerosol droplets, not molecules), then things start (vaguely) to make better sense.

So, as repeated stated already, there is no "sublimation," as a physical process, going on here. But there could well be an incremental advance in increasing air turbulence as it moves through the herbal material and a potentially major advance, if the post-vaporization reheating and (re)aerosolization apparently involved substantially improves vapor quality, such as resulting in smaller-sized and more vapor particles.

 

[luchiano]

A major problem with much discussion, originating from the manufacturer and continuing with others, including now being further disseminated by vendors, goes beyond the simply totally wrong terminology (and fraudulent claims, when marketing hype is parsed for meaning), and extends to the core physical processes involved. Many commenters have much the same wrong presumptions.

We are dealing with thermal desorption, rapid heating-forced detachment and then evaporation (becoming vapor suspended in air) of active agents that at ambient temperatures are sticky oils (liquids) mostly strongly adsorbed onto (attached to/gunked onto) plant matter (cellulose fibrils, trichomes, etc.). I can somewhat understand how (ignoring the facts/science/terminology) this could be interpreted as the active agent being in the solid state, with this the source for "sublimation" claims.

Then, as with all vaporized liquids (unless in a very disperse state and/or very high temperature, not relevant here), the VAPOR IS NOT A GAS! VAPOR IS AN AEROSOL, a suspension, involving rapidly-condensing liquid globules suspended/floating in the air, a gas. The desired active agents we all know are very very sticky - adhere to anything, including surfaces and any similar nano or micro-droplets (themselves). "Vaporization" does not involve the vaporized liquids ever effectively existing as single detached molecules dispersed (a gas dissolved) in the air! Rather, whether water/steam or herbal vapors, vaporized liquids immediately form aerosols composed of suspended particles/droplets. Any actual single gas-phase molecules (vs. nano-droplets), if ever even generated by wimpy vaporization temperatures, that coexist with the predominant nano/micro droplets in the vaporizer air flow immediately stick to each other (condense), forming ever-larger droplets suspended in the air.

If one loosely reinterprets some of what's been stated in this context, e.g., substitutes or thinks in terms of aerosols rather than gasses, and presumably controlled revaporization/aerosol reformation from reheating of vapor (likely reforming smaller particle vapor; which seems to be the real advance here), rather than 'demolecularization' (with all the action involving nano- and micro-sized aerosol droplets, not molecules), then things start (vaguely) to make better sense.

So, as repeated stated already, there is no "sublimation," as a physical process, going on here. But there could well be an incremental advance in increasing air turbulence as it moves through the herbal material and a potentially major advance, if the post-vaporization reheating and (re)aerosolization apparently involved substantially improves vapor quality, such as resulting in smaller-sized and more vapor particles.

You are forgetting one important thing, and that is the air is combining with the vapor once it goes through the restriction. This will raise the pressure inside the hole, forcing some of the air to unite the vapor, and causing it to cool off very fast once out of the hole, degrade some of the substances, as well as enlarge, making it harder to be absorbed deep into the alveoli. Even if it were to break up the vapor to be smaller, being that you are inhaling fast, they will congeal onto each other, and become thick again anyway, once they get to a much cooler area. The longer the path the thicker it will get. This is why the cloud forms so fast, and thick when you see the videos of the sublimator or any bong type tool that the user inhales fast with.

That article I posted was BIG to me, as it showed most of these clouds that people vape, aren't really being absorbed deep into the lungs for efficient absorption, and condense onto the respiratory tract, which a lot of it will be have gotten rid of when the lungs clean themselves out, and that is if your lungs are healthy enough to do that. I'm surprised more people didn't say anything about that article. I'm also surprised no one is mentioning the airy vaporizer(globe type) having 30% LESS THC , then joints, bongs, or convection vaporizers. This is very important as it sort of replicates what the sublimator is doing, because you are adding more heat to the already released thc. No other method does this besides the globe type vaporizer, and we have seen what happens when you don't let thc stay cool after it is released. Who knows what it does to other substances.

Like vaporeyes stated earlier, some people might want that, but a lot might not, so it should be noted if you are going to spend at least $400. Anyway read those articles, they will open your eyes to a lot of stuff we as ex-smokers think/do, and bring over to the vaporizing world.

 

[pakalolo]

A major problem with much discussion, originating from the manufacturer and continuing with others, including now being further disseminated by vendors, goes beyond the simply totally wrong terminology (and fraudulent claims, when marketing hype is parsed for meaning), and extends to the core physical processes involved. Many commenters have much the same wrong presumptions.

We are dealing with thermal desorption, rapid heating-forced detachment and then evaporation (becoming vapor suspended in air) of active agents that at ambient temperatures are sticky oils (liquids) mostly strongly adsorbed onto (attached to/gunked onto) plant matter (cellulose fibrils, trichomes, etc.). I can somewhat understand how (ignoring the facts/science/terminology) this could be interpreted as the active agent being in the solid state, with this the source for "sublimation" claims.

Then, as with all vaporized liquids (unless in a very disperse state and/or very high temperature, not relevant here), the VAPOR IS NOT A GAS! VAPOR IS AN AEROSOL, a suspension, involving rapidly-condensing liquid globules suspended/floating in the air, a gas. The desired active agents we all know are very very sticky - adhere to anything, including surfaces and any similar nano or micro-droplets (themselves). "Vaporization" does not involve the vaporized liquids ever effectively existing as single detached molecules dispersed (a gas dissolved) in the air! Rather, whether water/steam or herbal vapors, vaporized liquids immediately form aerosols composed of suspended particles/droplets. Any actual single gas-phase molecules (vs. nano-droplets), if ever even generated by wimpy vaporization temperatures, that coexist with the predominant nano/micro droplets in the vaporizer air flow immediately stick to each other (condense), forming ever-larger droplets suspended in the air.

If one loosely reinterprets some of what's been stated in this context, e.g., substitutes or thinks in terms of aerosols rather than gasses, and presumably controlled revaporization/aerosol reformation from reheating of vapor (likely reforming smaller particle vapor; which seems to be the real advance here), rather than 'demolecularization' (with all the action involving nano- and micro-sized aerosol droplets, not molecules), then things start (vaguely) to make better sense.

So, as repeated stated already, there is no "sublimation," as a physical process, going on here. But there could well be an incremental advance in increasing air turbulence as it moves through the herbal material and a potentially major advance, if the post-vaporization reheating and (re)aerosolization apparently involved substantially improves vapor quality, such as resulting in smaller-sized and more vapor particles.

Congratulations on the most informed summary I've seen. All posts on how the Sublimator works are based on incomplete knowledge, since none of us has a unit yet. We are left to speculate based on theory, and hardly anyone here has the background knowledge to do that accurately. Except you, it seems. What's your background?

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the reference to fraudulent claims. That presumes intent that I don't believe exists. It's okay to call them wrong, but to imply that they are deceiving to increase sales steps over a line. Again, it takes the discussion in a direction that resulted in the chaos of the previous thread.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

yeah, not fraudulent, just marketing ... kind of like the Volcano not really using a volcanic effect to create vapor.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

Pak I respectfully disagree here. He has backed off the sublimation marketing some, but I take issue with it. It confuses the customer base and he can't back up the claims properly. He goes so far as to say "Beyond Vaporization" as the tagline of the company. That to me shows intent to market the product as containing advantages over normal vaporizing.

Like I said I don't have an issue with the product... if it works and delivers a potent effective medicated state then I will be pleased from a product performance standpoint. What I will find annoying is that I will likely have to explain to people over and over again what the device is actually doing. That is a result of claiming sublimation on the creators part. When you are trying to build an informed user base introducing a product in the manner he did is kind of irresponsible.

I look forward to getting my unit and seeing what it really dose. I am hopeful it can provide quick high temperature extraction of the active ingredients in my medicine.

 

[pakalolo]

Pak I respectfully disagree here. He has backed off the sublimation marketing some, but I take issue with it. It confuses the customer base and he can't back up the claims properly. He goes so far as to say "Beyond Vaporization" as the tagline of the company. That to me shows intent to market the product as containing advantages over normal vaporizing.

Like I said I don't have an issue with the product... if it works and delivers a potent effective medicated state then I will be pleased from a product performance standpoint. What I will find annoying is that I will likely have to explain to people over and over again what the device is actually doing. That is a result of claiming sublimation on the creators part. When you are trying to build an informed user base introducing a product in the manner he did is kind of irresponsible.

I look forward to getting my unit and seeing what it really dose. I am hopeful it can provide quick high temperature extraction of the active ingredients in my medicine.

When I talked to Enrico I urged him to get away from the sublimation claims and concentrate on the results. I'm not claiming credit here by any means, but I think he took my opinion into consideration. In other words, I think you're disagreeing with a point I wasn't making. I was referring to calling the claims fraudulent. We see eye to eye on the marketing claims.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

When I talked to Enrico I urged him to get away from the sublimation claims and concentrate on the results. I'm not claiming credit here by any means, but I think he took my opinion into consideration. In other words, I think you're disagreeing with a point I wasn't making. I was referring to calling the claims fraudulent. We see eye to eye on the marketing claims.

Your right I was kind of disagreeing with a point you were not making. Cool I am glad you said something. Hopefully it was a piece of advice he took to heart. I would like for them to move more away from that as well.

I am excited to see what type of experience it can deliver when I get my hands on mine.

 

[stickstones]

the name is always going to cause problems with our crowd. most of the world couldn't give a shit.

 

[Stu]

the name is always going to cause problems with our crowd. most of the world couldn't give a shit.

I agree mostly with this, too. However if you've ever tried to do any type of research on the interwebs about a vaporizer (or vaporization in general), search results will usually point you towards FC. So anyone that sees a bunch of posts about how sublimation is not occurring might be turned off from the get go.

I'd hate to see poor word selection undermine the perception of the device's true capabilities. Pak is right; they should focus on how the unit performs, and not so much about marketing that is at the very least slightly misleading and confusing.

 

[mrboote]

Then, as with all vaporized liquids (unless in a very disperse state and/or very high temperature, not relevant here), the VAPOR IS NOT A GAS! VAPOR IS AN AEROSOL, a suspension, involving rapidly-condensing liquid globules suspended/floating in the air, a gas.

That miracle gas "air" that you refer to is comprised of roughly 20% water at any given time (usually called WATER VAPOR). You are not ever going to convince anyone that h20 cannot exist as a gas, and it is my friend, "only" a vaporized liquid.

 

[Timothy]

If one loosely reinterprets some of what's been stated in this context, e.g., substitutes or thinks in terms of aerosols rather than gasses, and presumably controlled revaporization/aerosol reformation from reheating of vapor (likely reforming smaller particle vapor; which seems to be the real advance here), rather than 'demolecularization' (with all the action involving nano- and micro-sized aerosol droplets, not molecules), then things start (vaguely) to make better sense.

So, as repeated stated already, there is no "sublimation," as a physical process, going on here. But there could well be an incremental advance in increasing air turbulence as it moves through the herbal material and a potentially major advance, if the post-vaporization reheating and (re)aerosolization apparently involved substantially improves vapor quality, such as resulting in smaller-sized and more vapor particles.

It is physically impossible to form smaller vapor particles with a device such as this. In order to achieve these results you would need at the very least a micron filter considering typical water vapor size from a standard humidifier ranges from 2-5 microns, since we are dealing with an aerosol with the added oils from the cannabis it is safe to assume the droplets will be slightly larger but never large enough to change in size from flowing through the Sublimators 1.7mm Atomizer.


Lets say you were able to filter the vapor so that only the small particles survived, first you would ultimately loose much of the active ingredients in the vapor to condensation. Quite frankly would it really matter? considering most people I know personally or from most any video, people do not hold their inhales in for as long as they can. When they exhale the huge cloud of vapor, they are loosing the majority of the active ingredients anyway. If people were to exhale into a bag and re-inhale repeatedly, you could probably have a sufficiently medicated session with just one pull from most any vaporizer. So if we as a whole were really worried with optimal delivery and conservation, then we would start with simple the obvious.
I found an interesting article that relates to drug delivery via monodisperse particle size.

Degradable microparticles have broad utility as vehicles for drug delivery and form the basis of several therapies approved by the US Food and Drug Administration. Conventional emulsion-based methods of manufacturing produce particles with a wide range of diameters (and thus kinetics of release) in each batch. This paper describes the fabrication of monodisperse, drug-loaded microparticles from biodegradable polymers using the microfluidic flow-focusing (FF) devices and the drug-delivery properties of those particles. Particles are engineered with defined sizes, ranging from 10 microm to 50 microm. These particles are nearly monodisperse (polydispersity index = 3.9%). A model amphiphilic drug (bupivacaine) is incorporated within the biodegradable matrix of the particles. Kinetic analysis shows that the release of the drug from these monodisperse particles is slower than that from conventional methods of the same average size but a broader distribution of sizes and, most importantly, exhibit a significantly lower initial burst than that observed with conventional particles. The difference in the initial kinetics of drug release is attributed to the uniform distribution of the drug inside the particles generated using the microfluidic methods. These results demonstrate the utility of microfluidic FF for the generation of homogenous systems of particles for the delivery of drugs.

 

[Pat Coleman]

Hit the sublimator than talk it down thats all i'm saying. Just think its a fancy vaporizer? That just reassures the masses that you have never used a sublimator; I own a sublimator and it is beyond vaporization it really is. Keep on subbing and here is our best impersonation of Enrico.

 

[pakalolo]

Hit the sublimator than talk it down thats all i'm saying. Just think its a fancy vaporizer? That just reassures the masses that you have never used a sublimator; I own a sublimator and it is beyond vaporization it really is. Keep on subbing and here is our best impersonation of Enrico.

If this is supposed to be an entry in the Enrico imitator contest, you need to post it in the right thread.

 

[Pat Coleman]

Sorry about that

 

[BLAZING OG]

There are probably millions of us who only got leaves back in the 60s and 70s and we all got high smoking that. I know for a fact that smoking bottom leaves from an immature plant will get you stoned because I've done it. It was decent weed.

I believe they state that the leaves and other parts contain approx 1% of thc, thats why you can make concentrates out of trim, theres little thc, but all those 1%'s add up when you add alot of that kind of material!!!

 

[Network23]

May I introduce myself, my name is Timothy and I am an epidemiologist. I noticed many discrepancies that I felt need to be addressed for the potential buyer. I did notice the other thread was shut down due to some rude comments so I will make this as polite as I can while attempting to explain some facts. This (sublimation) is not my direct field of study but I believe I can make a qualified analysis since I have come across sublimation in my studies, it is simple chemistry.


I read through the rules and I don't believe I am in violation with this post, I know the moderators have a tough job in keeping this board civil so I would appreciate every ones patience so we do not turn this thread into the last one. I would also like to keep this out of the manufacturers thread to be considerate.


First I will start by saying that the inventor himself says he is not a scientist so I will not blame him for designing a device that defies the principals of the chemistry in its namesake. I can not blame him for an interesting marketing strategy, I must admit that it has shook things up online. Some people are going to be thinking: "Who does this Tim think he is, Enrico showed us a Patent on YouTube", well I hate to be the bad news bear but Patents come in different forms and they do not have to prove the device does what it claims (you can get a patent with a simple sketch diagram without even a working prototype)


Sublimation occurs with many different elements but it is hard to consider Cannabis into any of these categories considering it contains a multitude of elements so first you have to ask the big question...

What are we Sublimating?

THC, Canabanoids, Cellulose, Amino Acids, etc etc


A quote from an online source: Americans for Safe Access, a medical marijuana advocacy group, (accessed Dec. 7, 2006):


"...[T]here are 483 different identifiable chemical constituents known to exist in cannabis. The most distinctive and specific class of compounds are the cannabinoids (66 known), that are only known to exist in the cannabis plant.

Other constituents of the cannabis plant are: nitrogenous compounds (27 known), amino acids (18), proteins (3), glycoproteins (6), enzymes (2), sugars and related compounds (34), hydrocarbons (50), simple alcohols (7), aldehydes (13), ketones (13), simple acids (21), fatty acids (22), simple esters (12), lactones (1), steroids (11), terpenes (120), non-cannabinoid phenols (25), flavonoids (21), vitamins (1) [Vitamin A], pigments (2), and elements (9).

^^^^
This plant of ours is so much more complicated than most realize and you can not just "sublimate" an entire plant composed of all you see above.





Lets for simplicity's sake say it is the THC that we are after in are Sublimate, Ok well since we all know THC is found mostly in the Cannabis plants trichombs. Since a tricome consist of the plants oily resin (liquid), how can one turn the THC into a gas without melting or boiling the trichome? (After all we are applying heat)


The most obvious case of Sublimation is solidified frozen carbon dioxide or dry ice, under normal atmospheric conditions frozen Carbon Dioxide at -80°C will sublimate directly to gas at room temperature. In thermodynamics the triple point of an element is the pressure and temp at which the three phases of that element can coexist in a thermodynamic equilibrium. i.e. water under 32°F is a solid (ice) If you begin to warm the ice above freezing point and it starts melting, it exists as a solid and a liquid at the same time. Water above 32°F is in a liquid state, when heat is applied and steam is released, allowing it to exist as both a gas & liquid.

In addition to the triple point between solid, liquid, and gas, there can be triple points involving more than one solid phase.

I would like to mention a few discrepancies that I have noticed with this product by listening to Enrico on these videos. To start I am going to start by using his picture diagram as a reference point.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
I am addressing the ones I feel are misleading

#1. He mentions that placing the Apollo heater on the bowl creates thermal equilibrium. This is no different from conduction. When you place a heat source in contact with a metal structure, the metal structure will draw heat away from the heat source, absorbing, dissipating. (think heat sink on a CPU)
Thermal equilibrium is achieved from two vaporizers off the top of my head, first is the Vapolution and 2nd is the Bud Toaster (which appears to pull this thermal equilibrium it off the best) the videos prove you get the benefits from convection and conduction in an oven like environment. The entire vial is surrounded by heat and a second stream of hot air rushes through the Herb for a blast of convection hot air.


#3. There will be no "Vortex" in this contraption. You see for this to happen there would need to be longer passageways (think of a rifle being fired in comparison to a pistol, a longer barrel will usually lead the bullet along the desired path for a longer period of time. leading to better accuacy) It all comes down to momentum.
What I am trying to convey here is that the air will travel in the path of least resistance (straight down in this case) considering the downward pressure which will be in force from the users inhale.


#4. Vapor will not have time to collect in this chamber considering an average hit is only seconds long (Just think of how fast the air will be moving when you inhale)


#5. This is not an atomizer. He says in a video it is a 1.7mm hole. Well what he means is a constriction (nearly all vaporizers have some sort of constriction near the bowl, standard mesh screens could called "Atomizers" if this were true (just think of all the tiny holes)


Enrico mentions several times about this atomizer "reheating the gas" Where is the heat from?

There is no heater down there, and like I already explained in #1, the heat from the heater will dissipate long before it can heat this section. Reheating the vapor is not sublimation.


#6. To be honest, the reason this device seems to catch reclaim is because of condensation. (so if anything "The Atomizer" is actually pulling more THC/CBN out of the air)

Hello
and thank you for your informative thread!
I have a Dabmaster Sublimator Kit and my average hit lasts about 40 seconds. Do I reach more of a status of sublimation, or is it still vaporizing?

for example