Science and Souls (for geeks and spiritual explorers)

Trever

Well-Known Member
Anyone else interested in the topic of psilocybin and neurogenesis? Definitely some interesting possibilities.


Anyone know a blind person who is into psychedelics? I have a friend who swears anytime he eats mushrooms/lucy he can see auras and see vibrations even though hes blind. Very interesting, also that neurogenesis with psilocybin is one interesting idea!
 

Bob Loblaw

Astralnaut
i love that this is at the bottom of the wiki page on neurogenesis

Effects of cannabinoids[edit source | editbeta]
Some studies have shown that the use of cannabinoids results in the growth of new nerve cells in the hippocampus from both embryonic and adult stem cells. In 2005 a clinical study of rats at the University of Saskatchewan showed regeneration of nerve cells in the hippocampus.[54] Studies have shown that a synthetic drug resembling THC, the main psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, provides some protection against brain inflammation, which might result in better memory at an older age. This is due to receptors in the system that can also influence the production of new neurons.[55] Nonetheless, a study directed at Rutgers University demonstrated how synchronization of action potentials in the hippocampus of rats was altered after THC administration. Lack of synchronization resulted in impaired performance in a standard test of memory.[56]

and yes i was just wiking neurogenesis so that i was sure i knew what i was talking about, lol

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NYC5IKH5jabi

Well-Known Member
@Tweek, yes. 'specially with so many of our friends carrying such maladies. i have long been a fan of the mind expanders ability to help you rewire (if you so choose to prepare your experiences) and the recent studies on psilocybin on the terminally ill have also peaked my interest.

@NYC5IKH5jabi - i have a lot of response to your post, but i want to do so with the understanding that while i am critiquing your thoughts and ideas by contrasting them to my own, i am in no way dismissing your thoughts or any others that may seem to compete.
Sure. Btw the brain is capable of a lot of things. I wouldn't discount the possibility of a specific part of our brain being for spirituality. However, it all starts and ends with your soul. The soul initiates the thought process behind every action of your brain.a brain of a person who died two minutes before and the brain of a living person are inherently different yet scientifically they are unable to tell what it is that made the brain function. The energy that made the blood cells and biological matter in your brain function is beyond physical matter.
 

Bob Loblaw

Astralnaut
thanks for the link, am currently writing an essay in response to your first post ;)

look for the edit button at the bottom of ur post and do that instead of making back to back posts in the future (forum etiquette) thanks !
 
Bob Loblaw,

Tweek

Well-Known Member
@Tweek, yes. 'specially with so many of our friends carrying such maladies. i have long been a fan of the mind expanders ability to help you rewire (if you so choose to prepare your experiences) and the recent studies on psilocybin on the terminally ill have also peaked my interest.

I do alot of personal research for answers on how to repair my own broken brain...it has been encouraging to see positive results for other illnesses as well. There is an interesting doc out there about a guy who was treating cluster headaches with mushrooms. He took them every two months and was able to live almost pain free.
 

Bob Loblaw

Astralnaut
Hey I would love to pass all my knowledge on to you guys but its too massive.

So here's a snippet. I will add more if you guys like.

All major religions are true. It is through time that immaculate truth gets mixed with lies, cultural rituals, human error and misinterpretation.

The older the religion the more further it has drifted from its immaculate inception.


i agree that there is truth in all religions, however i don't believe in an immaculate inception, but i would agree that time pollutes the original intention.
i also find christianity a case study in this.
in the same way that you do, i just disagree with the origin or it's immaculateness.
in researching world religions you will find that many of the main archetypes have been repeated hundreds of times in different forms and christianity is by far the most prolific, however it too goes all the way back to the very first known gods, those of egypt.
the sun god, horus also was born of a virgin, birth was foretold by a star, died and was resurrected 3 days later, and had 13 disciples. from then to christianity, this has been repeated hundreds of times. and christianity itself has split this more concrete (i say that as it has lasted in one form or another for 2k yrs) idea into over 40,000 denominations. this i believe leads us to..


Case study
Christianity
Beginning is by all accounts immaculate. All followers of Jesus are the same. Their love and motivation and loyalty to their faith is unquestioned.
At some point Christians go from powerless to powerful as a diaspora.
At another point powerful kings start to convert, often forcibly outsiders to Christianity without being able to give them the same love or motivation as the true Christians who would convert on their own. These converts lack the emotional tools to advance within Christianity beyond the shallow conversion to please the rulers. Add to that 95% illiteracy rates and you have a bunch of poor humiliated, degraded forced converts who have lost their religion and now have to learn a new faith, new language and new customs. They definitely could not die with the same knowledge or spiritual progress that people born into christianty with love for only jesus would. And They certainly would not be as devout as the early Christians since they wish they weren't forcibly converted in the first place.
At another point the church separates to Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Church.
At another point you get the Protestant reformation.
And today there are more churches then ever.
So today you have dozens of ways to "follow Jesus".
And now logic tells us only two things are possible
1 no organized Christian church that exists today is immaculate in their canon as well as religious rituals as practiced by the early true Christians
2 only 1 out of the countless Christian churches is immaculate in its canon and religious rituals as practiced by the early Christians.

I tend to agree with number 1. Absolutely no Christians today live and abide by the same convictions the early followers of Jesus did. This is due to three things

The churches over time have been corrupted.
Illiteracy on the part of the followers has basically been responsible for much of the corruption.
Religious zeal has died and people just don't care about god anymore. And 99.9% of people are content merely supporting yet not following the Christian way of life. Hypocrisy...

If you took a early Christian and transported them here to 2013 I guarantee they would disapprove of many things in catholic and non Catholic Churches.


so while agree with the above symptoms and events, i don't agree with this being from the same cause. i do agree with you that love is what is needed to truly convey spirituality and that power and fear will never succeed, even if the dogma is the same


The same logic can be applied to Islam, Judaism, Hinduism(which is actually a racist term), African animism. All these religions as practiced from inception were completely true. What they are today gives us the illusion that they are in conflict with each other. In reality the message is the same in all these religions but it has been mixed with lies so interpreting the faith as a whole is hard.

I know it may be hard to understand because of just how different Hinduism and Christianity have become but in the beginning in their immaculate form they carried the same message.

In order to see the message we must study scripture in the abstract and poetic sense.

Christianity- believes in a trinity of one god in three forms.
Hinduism believes in many different things. From one god, to many gods, to no god.
Now I'm sure you are thinking how can 1 billion people claim to be Part of the same exact religion yet a third of them believe in god as a singular entity, a third believe in many gods and worship them as statues, and the last third believe in god as a spiritual energy.

The answer is that of those 1 billion followers 99.99% have almost nothing in common with the followers of "Hinduism" thousands of years ago. They are basically all following an incomplete and erroneous form of the religion they think they are part of.


Now lets see how the early Christians and early Hindus were the same.
As I said before the message in all major faiths is the same but we misinterpret it and assume that only one religion is right while others have to be wrong.

Christians are taught to believe in god yet 2013 years after Jesus left we have forgotten the god Jesus taught us about. Jesus taught that there was only one god. But he said god was in 3. As a father and a son and a spirit.
How do we reconcile Jesus's teachings with Hindu teachings? We recognize the truth in both and cut out the lies that are rampant in both.



agree completely that there are parallels between "conflicting" faiths and that by looking for those parallels we can use that as a general guide to finding universal spiritual truths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces is a great, non-spiritual example of this approach

i feel the need to point out that the only religions that say they are the one and only way to god are judaism, christianity, and islam (excepting certain sects or denom.)


Science today proves the Big Bang. But what exactly is the spiritual interpretation of the Big Bang?

there is one god. With three forms.
The form of god who creates the world from the Big Bang is god the father.
This form of god is unseen, beyond the physical dimension. It has always existed and will always exist. This form of god is also one of the two forms of god we are supposed to worship. This form of god, creates, sustains and destroys. This is the form of god that all religions point to as being on the other side of physical death. This form of god is beyond physical matter so worshipping this god is also beyond physical matter(mental prayer).
 

Bob Loblaw

Astralnaut
HAD to double post due to length

i want to add some of my understanding of sacred geometry here that is direct parallel to this and i find is a great introduction to some of it's tenants (as i understand).
please read what i write here, then reread the above to see what i mean.

so sacred geometry is a way of looking at reality thru many different prisms/dimensions/divisions to see the same thing in it's many different expressions and to honor and utilize that understanding.

ONE - the singular prism, the trinity/father (depending on perspective), the big bang, the akashic field, etc. this plane in it's entirety

TWO - the paradox, the dichotomy, the yin yang, god the son and satan, sun and moon, day and night, matter and dark matter, the light and shadow, life and death, where all is true it is equally false on it's polar end

and this brings us to....

The god that is the world is god the son. Just as a baby is part of a mother deep in her own body and one day they separate and become two separate entities yet it remains a fact that they were once the same entity. In the same manner all physical matter including the Big Bang was created and born from god the father! Basically every atom, every electron every sub atomic particle is god the son.


THREE - the triad, the mathematical 3rd dimension, mind/body/spirit, crone/matron/maid, father/son/spirit, it is the base on which form resides, all further expressions are made from this.





Now thirdly. God the Holy Spirit. God the Holy Spirit is inside every human. Your conscience, your thoughts, feelings, emotions, faith, soul, spirit, whatever you want to call it. It is NOT physical matter! It is absolutely not physical matter. There is no physical change in your body that science can point to as being the physical matter which is your soul that leaves your body after you die. A living and dead human are the same physical matter yet only the living human has the Holy Spirit inside. The soul within every human being is god the Holy Spirit.


this is not entirely true, as you admit here
Sure. Btw the brain is capable of a lot of things. I wouldn't discount the possibility of a specific part of our brain being for spirituality. However, it all starts and ends with your soul. The soul initiates the thought process behind every action of your brain.a brain of a person who died two minutes before and the brain of a living person are inherently different yet scientifically they are unable to tell what it is that made the brain function. The energy that made the blood cells and biological matter in your brain function is beyond physical matter.
there was a famous study (that admittedly hasn't been repeated, but who is gonna pay for it? lol) that found that we lose 28g at the moment of death, iirc. i fully agree that there is a spirit and that it is the seat of consciousness.

With this knowledge we can deduce that everything, everyone, everywhere is GOD! And Hindu scripture, African animism, Native American spirituality. They all hint to this fact that is contained in the bible. Yet we all draw a line between monotheism and polytheism without realizing that there is no difference. It is perfectly acceptable to recognize the god as the sun who gives us sunlight. Or God as our parents which give us love. Or God as animals whom we share the earth with. Or god as food and oxygen keeping us alive. Or God as water that quenches our thirst. Or God as children who carry on our heritage. Or god as beautiful flowers decorating and perfuming the world. But we are never to worship this form of god!!!


agree with you up until the last line. which you also brought up
when previously describing the sun...
This form of god is not to be worshipped!!!! You can't worship idols, rivers, humans, any physical matter at all. However Just because you can't worship it does not mean you can deny that all physical matter is infact god!

and then come back to again, here

The only difference is that after you have recognized god. What next? Do you worship him by worshipping other humans? Cows? Elephants? Gods with ten arms? Satan? NOOOO
You worship god that exists within you and all around you. You use religion to connect the god in you to the god that created you...


firstly, i'd like to say that it's dangerous telling people what to and what not to 'worship'
and i didn't get your word on worshiping the holy spirit?
this is one of the reasons i like math as an expression of spirituality, while it is as open to interpretation, finding judgement is almost impossible.

a personal word on worship. i believe that honoring (not worshiping) the ONE - creator and thanking it for our existence is something we do owe. although that is not the right word. it is not demanded due to free-will, nor is it necessary. but it is due and doing so is it's own reward. i believe that we are an expression of 3 as is all that is around us and that what elevates us is the connection (holy spirit) to the ONE. nothing else is due anything resembling "worship" however many other things are worthy of different levels of honor, carry their own energy and return it when asked. such as the earth, air, sky, water, other animals and even each other and most importantly, OURSELVES. we are the expression of god here, as you mention earlier and finish with

Sikh scripture often says that god is the taste and the taster. God is nearer to us then our own two hands. God is all around and inside. The relation between god the creator and god the Holy Spirit is like water. The creator is the ocean. And our souls are individual drops of water, yet when the drops mix back with the ocean they are no longer distinct or separate. This is the end result. If we live life according to god. After death our soul will unite with god in his creator form like a drop of water immersing itself into an ocean.

i've always been interested in sikhism, with it's blend of christian and hindu teachings as well as the different forms of the quabbalh and kabbalah due to their mathematical foundings.

if you look at the parallels, you'll find very little conflicts.

i don't write to offend, but just to further illustrate your own ideas and how they are in other forms. maybe ones that offer less restriction. thanks for writing and for listening
 

NYC5IKH5jabi

Well-Known Member
Too much to quote so I hope you understand.

When I say immaculate inception I mean that I completely disagree that the same prophet who was one with god could also claim only his religion is correct. They also couldn't preach anything other than love. All hatred found in scripture is an unapproved addition in my book. That is what I mean by immaculate. Spotless. Clean. Free from all stains.

For example, I'm not a Christian yet Jesus's core message of compassion beyond all is found in my and every religion. This I take as a cardinal truth that transcends all religions. A truth that has always existed.
Take for example the truth of humanity. Since before humanity emerged there were lesser life forms without the brain power humans had. So the question is, when humans finally came to inhabit earth. Did they come from another planet? Dimension? Did they evolve right here on earth? In any case the knowledge we like to spew about the earliest worshipped god being the sun god of Egypt is pure ignorance as we could never truly know what has occurred in the billions of years our universe has existed. We cannot truly establish these as fact. For all we know a society more futuristic and advanced then ours inhabited earth and destroyed all remnants of their time for us to examine.

Neatly, worship in sikhism is not the same as you are getting at. But first lets talk about worship historically, In most religions worship is intrinsically linked to houses of worship and the priests who run them. In essence you follow and learn from them how to worship god. All anthropologists can say today that worship services in all abrahamic religions have been changed soo much that we have lost all semblance of the original worship routines of early faithful religious followers. For example, you'd be interested to know that prior to the advent of Buddhism, vegetarian diet was not a part of Hindu life. It was adopted from the Buddhists yet today the idea of eating meat is soo foreign to Hindus that many rituals that require animal sacrifice have been completely ignored by Hindu priests even though those same rituals were completely obligatory during ancient times. So worship, sadly like scripture and religious theology has been also corrupted and changed from its immaculate beginning.

The sikh model of worship goes beyond what parameters religions set up.
In sikhism prayer consists of only one thing. Remembrance.
Whether you remember him as god, as Jehovah, Allah, waheguru, buddha, it doesn't matter, god knows you are referring to him because he is the one and only being that exists. Sikhism truly teaches that it isn't the words you pray but the devotion and love behind the words that reaches god. This is why Sikhs regard true men of god as indistinguishable regardless what religion they belong to. In the end they all belong to god because they have realized the secret that they are in fact god himself experiencing the physical world in the form of countless organisms.

Not worship. Not sacrifices. Not priest sanctioned festivals/holiday
In sikhism prayer has a clear goal. To unite the god within you with the god that created you. Through remembrance we believe you will finally find your true self and realize your true nature and god are one and the same. Through prayer you can connect to the god that is beyond the physical realm.

Also the idea of telling people what to worship and what not to worship is not wrong in any manner. Not when your intention is the opposite of proselytizing. When your intention is to encourage others to find the truth whever it is it is completely alright. The reason why you should only worship god the creator and god your soul is very simple. The physical universe is not permanent. The Big Bang is followed by the Big Crunch. Science says that they think the universe has been created many times. So does sikhism. God the creator is beyond physical matter and he is permanent. So it is right to pray to that form of god. But the physical dimension is not permanent therefore it is not true to consider it god in the form worth praying to. On the other hand, although your soul exists in the physical dimension it is NOT physical matter. It is the same nature as god the creator. God the creator is like the ocean. Your soul is like an infinitesimal drop of water of that ocean. Yet if you were to unite the drop of water and the ocean they would unite as to become indistinguishable. Your soul therefore is worthy of worship just like god the creator. It will exist long after your physical body dies. Infact, if you live a true life your soul can become immortal.

Prayer and karma in sikhism are distinct in their meanings from other religions like Hinduism.
Because sikhism teaches you that god is inside as well as all around you it teaches you that there is a distinct way to pray to god. A way that is the original primal way. The way the cavemen did it! Think about it! The cavemen were nomads. There were no priests. There were no houses of worship. Hell! There were no houses! Even before homosapiens had the brain power to build a straw hut they had the ability to connect with the god within. Even before they had the brain power to create languages and write down scripture they had access to the god within. Even before anyone had the ability to preach and proselytize they had the ability to access god all by themselves. Without priests, religions, or organized houses of worship. Sikhism pays homage to that primal true form of prayer. Which is remembrance of our creator. This is a big reason why Sikhs dont cut their hair or dye their hair, or get their body pierced or get tattoos. All these things are looked at as destroying the inherent divine immaculate nature of every single human being. Think about it. If the primal form of prayer which was accessible to the earliest humans was mental prayer then why today do we have so much ritual, dogma, holidays, rules? It is all unnecessary baggage bro. The primal form of man is the true house of worship. Within this house of worship is the soul which is god himself. Your physical body IS the house of worship. The only devotee in this house is you all by yourself. Your DNA is the primal temple where prayer has always reached god. In fact, it is such a great temple. Unlike physical buildings this temple of the body will always be occupied forever and ever, it even reproduces, it will always be around. You can destroy all the churches or temples or synagogues in the world. God still is accessible through the primal temple which is your body and mind. You could destroy all of planet earth and leave only one last human being to live alone on mars or neptune. even then he would still have access to god through his body and mind!all by himself! Your body is the temple where your physical actions and interactions with other people is prayer. Your mind the temple where your remembrance of god is prayer. Further more consider god a artist, if your dna is the art then would it be right to alter the work of another artist? The greatest artist at that? Of course not, there is no right or wrong is art, it is only true. In the same manner your physical body is true and altering it by cutting your hair, circumsiIng your penis, piercing your ears is all basically you out of ignorance denying the fact that your body is the the true temple and your soul the god.

A great example is diet and exercise. You need both to get the end result which is a healthy and strong physique. In the same manner sikhism states it is impossible to achieve spiritual progress without prayer AND good moral upright living. This is unique as many other religions insists that divine grace has nothing to do with your karma. You can do anything you want to anybody and yet if god wants he will save you. This is not in line with sikh thought. In sikh thought your physical actions and words and thoughs are all an extension of prayer. Because god is within all human beings your dealings and life experiences with all humans rich, poor, good, bad have a direct effect on your spiritual progress.

When I say Holy Spirit I obviously am disagreeing with the current explanation Christians today have for it. I just used Holy Spirit as a way to show how even though Jesus taught his apostles to worship one god, he most certainly taught them that god is one yet has innumerable forms.


By the way sikhism does not blend the teachings of any other religions. The fact that sikhism preaches things other religions also agree on is the product of the other religions containing the same truths. It is not in any way that sikhism came from any other preexisting faith system/s.
 
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NYC5IKH5jabi,
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Bob Loblaw

Astralnaut
you seem to be having an argument that is mostly with yourself since you have chosen to attribute deep meaning to words i never said or to decide for yourself what context the words i said meant with little desire to interpret my intent while disregarding the reflections of your effect regardless of intentions. also by deciding when and how historical records have value applied only by your subjective and heavily weighed perspective means i'm done trying to discourse with you on the subject. thank you for your thoughts on sikhism.


i found this, it's pretty
mandala005%5B1%5D.jpg
 

NYC5IKH5jabi

Well-Known Member
Religion overload...

you seem to be having an argument that is mostly with yourself since you have chosen to attribute deep meaning to words i never said or to decide for yourself what context the words i said meant with little desire to interpret my intent while disregarding the reflections of your effect regardless of intentions. also by deciding when and how historical records have value applied only by your subjective and heavily weighed perspective means i'm done trying to discourse with you on the subject. thank you for your thoughts on sikhism.


i found this, it's pretty
mandala005%5B1%5D.jpg
its not for me to decide what historical records have value. But Egyptian theology from thousands of years ago is certainly grasping at straws for cogent reflections on the concept of that which transcends physical matter. In my estimation early religious thought was not divine. There isn't much I nor anyone has ever been able to reconcile Egyptian theology with that which we see being followed today. If there were people praying to Horus today they would be inclined to search for and provide the world with factual truths with which we could compare that theology with ones that are actually still meaningful to people today. All we have to go on is a relative handful of archeologists who have had no motivation to find what is beyond artifact. And why would they? Only a devotee of Horus would go through all that trouble.

For example thousands of years from now archaeologists would have a hard time linking long unshorn hair to my faith yet any sikh will tell you how important it is to our faith. Yet if outsiders without any input from practicing Sikhs were to study my religion thousands of years from now on their own they would obviously not be able to draw the esoteric and emotional significance of certain beliefs and rituals associated with my faith. I mean come on bro, the biggest damn crap early archaeologists spewed was that the pyramids were just gigantic burial structures for kings. Today we know that there was much more to the pyramids then being a tomb. You see having actual practicing devotees today would provide instant insight to the function of the pyramids but since there are no followers we have to rely on thè researchers.

My intention was to show you that going back thousands of years to a religion that isn't even followed nor even understood truly by researchers isn't a good place to start as my entire argument is that as times goes by the more and more truths we lose from each religion. You very eloquently mentioned how 40,000 different denominations all have a story to tell about Jesus yet fail to understand how far removed we are from any true empirical facts that can be deduced about Egyptian faith. There just isn't enough reliable information to study extinct religions when the motive is to compare and contrast them with current religions actually being followed and actually having a chance of being cleaned up and restored to their immaculate states. No disrespect
 
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NYC5IKH5jabi,
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Bob Loblaw

Astralnaut

grokit

well-worn member

This guy has some pretty interesting thoughts about life the universe and everything.
 
grokit,

Frederick McGuire

Aggressively Loungey
there was a famous study (that admittedly hasn't been repeated, but who is gonna pay for it? lol) that found that we lose 28g at the moment of death, iirc. i fully agree that there is a spirit and that it is the seat of consciousness.

It didn't exactly find that.
The guy did 6 tests, and only 1 or 2 of them showed the specific weight loss he was predicting.

There's a snopes page about it if you're interested :science:
www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp
 

Bob Loblaw

Astralnaut
ditto, love this line..

“the positive Grassmannian is the slightly more grown-up cousin of the inside of a triangle,” Arkani-Hamed explained. Just as the inside of a triangle is a region in a two-dimensional space bounded by intersecting lines, the simplest case of the positive Grassmannian is a region in an N-dimensional space bounded by intersecting planes. (N is the number of particles involved in a scattering process.)
 
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