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school me on making bubble

Discussion in 'Concentrates' started by herbivore21, Aug 10, 2015.

  1. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    I recommend rosin for the nasal spray, as it will maximize yields of medically useful compounds. You are using substantial heat in your processing for the nasal spray IIRC and there is no sense making a low yielding, high terp process that avoid solvents and heat only to apply heat to the finishing product and lose the terps ;) Better to do rosin because it is solventless but will give you the same yields as solvents.

    Also I do not necessarily recommend ultra high terp extracts for nasal application. Some of these terps can be quite irritating in the nose. :2c:
     
  2. witka

    witka Member

    Messages:
    80
    yah i just suck at rosin... LOl i tried it with the hair straighener bullshit.. such low returns
     
  3. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    We've all been there starting out with rosin lol.

    You probably just weren't getting enough pressure yet brother. Hair straighteners are not the easiest way to do it, especially if you didn't use a clamp or vise to get the necessary pressure. Set yourself up a vise press or a hydraulic/pneumatic press with some of the plates that are available and you'll get more than enough pressure to squish well :)

    You need temps of approx 160-250f for flower rosin squishing, and pressure of 1000-2000 psi. This necessitates clamps, vises, presses etc. Believe me when I say that it is absolutely the easiest way to produce solventless oil though. If you were finding rosin tek to be a challenge, don't go over to bubble and think it will be easier (it is much, much harder and you are likely to turn a lot of great material into low quality hash while you learn!). The key with all extraction teks is to expect NOT to have success when you first try it out and expect that your first extracts will be low quality/low yields.

    Holy shit we are way off topic in this thread now lol

    With this being said, it may be worthwhile to start a broader 'herbivore support thread' where I give advise on various concentrates/e-nail questions because I get a whole lot of these questions quite regularly these days. It would be easier to dispense most of this advise in one place :) This would be especially helpful in the cases where members do not quote or tag me in their questions and I don't see their responses lol.
     
  4. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    Apologies for the double post guys, but thought I'd share this beauty here. @killick this is what happens when you have honed your bubble tek and gotten your hands on beautiful flowers:

    [​IMG]

    73u bubble shatter (unpressed heads).
     
  5. TeeJay1952

    TeeJay1952 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,553
    @herbivore21 Please excuse if crass but I have an inquiry as to output.
    If you had a good start flower, 1/4 pound and all the bags and ice, What would your expected yield be?
    So much 4 star, so much 5 and so forth. Is the "spinach" depleted or is more processing available?
    How much has yield increased as tek becomes better?
     
  6. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    Good question brother, assuming very high quality flower (IME, not all flower is worth making hash out of, it needs to be very heavily caked with resin - more to the point, the resin comes off best if the bulk of the heads are capitate stalked trichome glands - the ball on the stalk type trichome that we all know and love - the other trichs don't remove so cleanly or easily).

    For yield, you would expect ~10% back in this scenario depending on your variety. I would expect to see 10-15g all up of hash, with most of it being 6 star (maybe roughly 1/4), 1/2 of the material would be 5 star and 1/4 or less would be 4.5 star (in great material, the worst will be 5 star).

    Yield doesn't increase much beyond this point unless you start smashing up the nugs and getting a bunch of plant material through.

    There are good physical/chemical reasons for this. A solvent will strip every single compound that is soluble in it over time, even those compounds that are less soluble than our desired actives. You tend to get higher yields because solvent pulls away a lot more components from the plant to begin with. Proper full melt hash making does not strip away everything on the plant. It only captures the lion's share of the capitate stalked trichome heads, with some stalks and some sessile trichomes (these are big explanatory factors for why not all of the hash is 6 star melt - some heads don't wanna separate from the stalks, sessile trichomes have a much smaller secretory cavity and do not produce near as much melty resin vs the secretory cells and the membrane etc which comparatively fill more of the volume of the sessile trichome than in a capitate stalked trichome).

    As you can see, little inspires one to understand the nature of the plant and especially the trichomes themselves like learning to make hash. :)

    The above is nothing like what should be expected the first time one makes bubble though! There is generally a lot of error involved when learning an extraction method.

    The material shouldn't have much by way of trichomes in it after a wet-wash, but if you wanted to make damned sure, you could always solvent wash it or try and rosin squish it (this would necessitate a lot of work to re-dry and then re-humidify the material to be suitable for rosin). There are smaller deposits of actives in the shoots within cannabis flowers as well as in other parts of the plant. The solvent return could be reasonable!

    Bubble is a high-labor technique. It really is a lot of work! lol

    Hope this helps man :)
     
  7. TeeJay1952

    TeeJay1952 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,553
    I thank you for the info. You describe the taste as so sublime it increases the fantasy of me doing extra work. I don't care for shatter and other BHO as like begging for what is coming anyhow. I truly hope there is what you consider a worthwhile payoff for all your labor. I am an Ugly American and had to know the $ and cents.You strike me as an Artesian and I know I will never taste the heights you regularly visit.
    Be Well and Sail On Brother. You are an amazing repository of arcane knowledge.
     
    killick, GreenHopper and herbivore21 like this.
  8. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

    Messages:
    560
    Location:
    The War Room
    Amen, TeeJay!

    Oh, as a qwet guy, that hurt...medic, MEDIC!!!

    :lol:

    And guess who *also* has arcane knowledge in the qwet world that I currently follow to make shatter...? (Hint, his name rhymes with "merbivoreflintyhun", and is also probably now going to kill me...!)

    :tup:

    Anyway peace bud, I also am forever in search of some kind of canna-nectar I have not yet found! (I think full melt MAY be it one day...too much for me right now, but I follow this thread in awe and hope.)

    Good things to everyone!
     
  9. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    You are too kind my friend, thank you for all of the supportive words and I too hope that you get to enjoy medicine this good too in future!

    I can appreciate that typical solvent concentrates just don't ring everybody's respective bells as you say, but I am quite confident that bubble of this quality is something the whole community will enjoy (in varying doses though, a large dab will really break you out into a sweat if you don't typically do concentrates lol).

    I am conscious of dollars and cents to an extent, but I have learned that where it is possible for me to source appropriate flowers, this is the best medicine for my needs :) I find I'll often dab through 5x as much of other oils before I make a dent in a small piece of full melt like what is pictured above to get the same relief. The labor will only not be justified if you run too little at a time - this isn't like solvent extraction or rosin where processing <1zip amounts is at all a reasonable use of time.

    If you get a good amount of quality material some day and want to treat yourself, you need only drop me a line for assistance sir! :) :peace:

    lol yes even though I don't make solvent extracts myself except for reclaim purposes anymore, the knowledge I developed from when I did is still very useful for those in your situations. I'm glad to retain this information if for no other reason than to be able to help folks like yourself my friend :)

    Full melt is definitely something we should work towards and aim for when the time is right. When life gives us lemons, we make lemonade. When a sufficient amount of high quality raw material makes itself available - we make full melt and rejoice, regardless of low yields! :cool:

    Thank you kindly also for the appreciation man :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
    Prolusio, 6079Smith and OldOyler like this.
  10. killick

    killick But I like it!

    Messages:
    1,712
    Location:
    Okanagan
    Things I learned from my first wash -
    Cold, and lots of it
    Don't rush - let things get cold!
    It's kinda messy. Outside was great. Inside would get wet.
    Have all your tools handy, because there is a lot of sitting around waiting, with brief moments of high speed activity.
    It helps having a second set of hands to wash bags. A bucket of water (or ISO) would probably help if you are on your own. Once the screens get dry they will be a difficult clean.
    To be squeaky clean use Reverse osmosis water.
    Try find RO ice cubes, or at least filtered water ice-cubes.


    Machines makes it less labour intensive. My arthritis and separations hate labour-intensive, so we got a plastic RV washing machine for around $100. Worthwhile. But the Wacky Willies stainless model is probably the next bump. Some videos show people using handheld mixers, or paint mixer attachments on a drill, or even just a big stir spoon for soup. Bigger batches will require bigger tools.

    Was that everything? I'm due for another run soon - the significant amount of shake in the freezer, combined with the evening temps around freezing, make this a good time to start washing :)
     
  11. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    Greeting my friend! Sorry I left this one unnoticed for a while! I am struggling to keep up with all the tags and quotes lately aren't I? lol

    You are oh so right about inside bubble making getting wet. I would go so far as to say DO NOT DO BUBBLE INSIDE for anyone who has carpets or wooden floorboards or anything susceptible to water damage, mold and rot. You're gonna have a bad time!

    Rigorous water rinsing, iso cleaning and water rinsing again in that order should always be used with bubblebags. Otherwise, you will get caked screens over time. No amount of water at any temp or pressure is going to fully clear those screens after plenty of sticky resin has been through the screens!

    Machines are also a must IMO. When we manually agitate, there is every chance (especially for those of us with medical conditions relating to motor skills or relevant injuries) that we overdo it and get broken up plant material through the screens. I especially do not recommend use of drill bits etc. Usually, these over-agitate material and I've never seen great full melt made this way. It is important to get gentle, vortexing water based agitation for the best results. Rough mechanical stirring of the material with hard implements is likely to be counter-productive. ;)

    I figured I'd share some of the lesser hash that came from my latest run. This is 45u collection.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Still dabbable, but teetering right on the edge of the divide between dabbable and not quite melty enough. As we can see, this is shiny and there isn't greenery in there. These are just immature heads that do not have as much resin content as the mature, larger glands.
     
  12. killick

    killick But I like it!

    Messages:
    1,712
    Location:
    Okanagan
    @herbivore21 Take all the time you need to respond brother - we all appreciate the masters course we're getting via distance delivery :)

    I missed all the manual steps due to physical issues and went straight to the washing machine. If it cacks the Wacky Willies stainless machine will likely be the next purchase.

    I bought a few selections of silk screen material, and have been thinking about 'things' to do with it... The ideas are limitless, limited only by my imagination poking holes in them... But the spinning dry sift box is likely going to happen before the yuletide...
     
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  13. DrDoggy

    DrDoggy New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Hi All!,
    I am making some vape mix for my juice with these new bubble bags I got... I was not able to register at http://fullmeltbubble.com/ nor get any help from admin(it would return database error when i entered my birth date in registration)... so if anyone has a connection to over there would be great if you could pass the message!

    Hopefully though, maybe someone here can help....

    I did my first wash with 8stages of bags, now granted that a quarter of bud is not very much but i still feel that my yield was a bit shy:
    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=308weaf&s=9#.WERWcn02Bzk

    Also in one of my bags i think has some keif solidified in the filter, as you can see we can no longer see light through it in some places(the lighter part is the transparent one):
    http://oi67.tinypic.com/125rjgp.jpg

    I started by filling a 2l pop bottle 3/4 with water half frozen to the consistency of an ice slushy, added my 1/4o and shook and stirred for about 30 minutes till most of the ice was melted, from there i let it stand in the filter bucket for about 20 min then drained through the filters. The residual water is kinda green still!

    So I am wondering did I make any mistakes here, hence why i was returned with such a low quantity(its pretty good stuff though)?
    Should i wash the budz again(should i reuse same water)?
    Was it ok to use this pop bottle method?
    Should i be busting up the buds to smaller pieces before putting in bottle or is full nugs better.... in this test I busted them up to about 0.1g nugs which is a little big to be rollin in to a joint (I usually purchase dry, tight buds)?
    I maintained low temperatures, but what happens when the temperature goes above 4degrees C, could it be that I wasn't carful enough while letting it stand? and some of my crystals are still in the water?? can i recover them?

    any help would be great!
    Thanks!
     
  14. momofthegoons

    momofthegoons vapor accessory addict

    Messages:
    12,725
    You might want to check out this thread on bubble. Lots of knowledgeable folks in there..
     
    killick likes this.
  15. DrDoggy

    DrDoggy New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Thanks!
    Very useful info there, but past page 2 is beyond the level im stuck at!
    It is my hopes that one of those experienced individuals will contribute to aid me in critical criteria i may have overlooked .. or maybe to tell me i did everything ok and got a typical yield for my qty
     
  16. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    The reason @momofthegoons (who is a moderator here - it helps to pay attention to her suggestions since it is her job to keep the site organized and clutter-free, the mods here do a very good job of this compared to a lot of other sites!) suggested you go to the other thread is because we like to avoid multiple threads on the exact same topic cluttering up the forum.

    I will happily help you of course, being the resident full melt maker around these parts :)

    First of all, a quarter ounce of flower is not a justifiable quantity for a bubble run. You can only expect up to 10% return from that and more likely a max of about 5% unless you have absolute BEST POSSIBLE flowers in terms of resin quantity. So you can expect between .35 and .7g of bubble (much more likely to get something on the lower end of this scale) from all of your bags combined.

    Your agitation method is also likely to be far too violent and will break up the buds a lot, rather than just removing the heads meaning you'll get less melty, contaminated hash. The motion in vortexing water of a washing machine gently pulls the resin heads off of the trichome stalks without breaking up the inactive plant material (which can then come through your filters and get into your collection). Shaking a bottle with water and your material is a much more aggressive physical disturbance of the plant material.

    More to the point though, bubble hash for ejuice mixes is counter-productive. We make bubble hash because at it's best quality, it is a connoisseur concentrate with flavor and effects that cannot be replicated otherwise. The yields are negligible making bubble hash vs rosin or solvent techniques. However, people deal with the terribly low yields because full melt is just about as good as dabbing gets.

    When we mix this kind of product with ejuice solvents (PG/PEG/VG/ethanol etc, all of them dangerous to heat and inhale btw) and filter it, we remove some of this flavor/effect which is left behind in the filtered material and decomposed by the application of heat during processing of the ejuice mix - what isn't removed or decomposed here is greatly diluted with ejuice filler. You end up with even lower yields of active medicine that the low-melt hash that you started with.

    If you were to press rosin from your flowers instead and mix that with ejuice, you'd have far more concentrate to mix in with your ejuice from the same amount of flowers. You'll also get yields that justify very small runs like you are doing here. I suggest moving away from bubble to rosin unless you are gonna get much more flower to run at a time. I apologise as your bubble bags purchase may have been misguided, but I am sure you'd rather I am straight with you here :peace:
     
  17. DrDoggy

    DrDoggy New Member

    Messages:
    4
    interesting, thanks, yes a bit different here, so should i continue in other thread, so we can delete this one?
    my yield was just enough for a single bowl sprinkle... which indicates a huge mistake

    what is min amt of flower i should put in, also how does that improve the loss efficiency? What is ideal? and how much output can i expect (avg-- i understand quality factors)

    Also can you elaborate about temperature i read that co2 is best, but ice water at 4deg works too, what happens if the temp rises during settling.

    so when you are saying too much agitation does that mean Im breaking the crystals and they are passing through the 25 micron filter, and are lost to garbage water?

    I dont get but trying to understand the details of stirring, so paint mixer and shaking are out, would it be ideal if i just swirl my ice slurry in the pop bottle like a slow whirlpool for the 20 minutes? Also i should mention I have made my ice so it has the consistency of slush, is it ok/better to do this than full sized ice cubes, then to empty the pop bottle out into bags after "gentle stirring" , maybe i should stir a bit more to encourage settling?
    Maybe i dont understand that the cool ice is just to knock out trichroms, after that water temp is irrelivant(up to room temp)?
    However my fear is that the buds are tight!! will the "swirling only" method be enough to get the crystals between the tight spots?

    "it is a connoisseur concentrate with flavor and effects that cannot be replicated otherwise"
    --- this is why i chose the bubble bag system, it sounds like i get more then just the thc crystals,
    My idea was that I will keep the larger micron particle yields for my bowl(which caries interesting stuff other than thc), but then use the higher grade stuff for the vape, I planned to take the fine keif, put it in oven to convert from thca to thc, add small amount of ethanol to liquefy a bit, cool, and mix right in to the premix vape juice both as liquids, the juice i have could use some thinning anyway..

    yes ty again! i like straight!
     
    herbivore21 likes this.
  18. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    Your yield being enough for a single bowl sprinkle could actually be a normal yield from such a small wash (remember as well, you need to wash the same material many more times than once! This applies no matter what you use to agitate your material, you will never get all your hash in the first agitation!).

    You can also get very low yields very easily from less than outstanding flower that is not visibly caked with a lot of trichomes. You broke your flowers up enough to begin with for sure, no problem there. BTW, you do not want a paint mixer, drill or any other similar device. What you want is a bubble washing machine! It is very hard to reliably get full melt from manual agitation as the nature of the agitation is not so repeatable.

    When I discuss too much agitation, what I mean is you are smashing up the rest of the buds (not the trichome heads) and as a result you get contaminated hash full of ground up plant material.

    A justifiable amount of very high end flower for a bubble wash is easily 5-10x as much as what you used, and ideally on the much higher end of that figure. If the flower was immature when harvested, you will not have many trichome glands to get out of the flower. Immature glands are like immature fruit, they are harder to shake off the plant than the ripe ones - too much shaking breaks up the other plant material and before long you have finely ground herb, not hash in your bags.

    Can we start with some pictures of your starting flower? It is important before we get any further into other troubleshooting to see that your starting material was worth running. As a general rule, if it is not absolute fire flower/sugar trim that you have on your hands, then it is not worth running into bubble hash. Bubble and dry sift are only effective for collecting the lion's share of the capitate stalked trichomes (these are the trichomes which look like a ball on a stalk) found on your flowers. Some varieties have less of these trichomes compared to the other kinds which are less easy to collect with hashmaking techniques. Flowers that are not taken well into late flower before harvest will have immature resin production (much less trichomes overall, less resin inside the trichomes and the trichomes are much harder to remove from the flowers without taking along inactive plant contaminant for the ride).

    I am sure one of the mods can move these posts into the 'school me on making bubble thread', I'll tag @momofthegoons here to see if she will kindly oblige :)

    Also one more point, please quote or tag me when you reply to my posts. I did not get any notification for this reply and it is very easy for me to miss your questions if you don't notify me.
     
  19. momofthegoons

    momofthegoons vapor accessory addict

    Messages:
    12,725
    I have merged the two threads and everyone can continue on.... ;)
     
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  20. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    Thanks Mom! :)
     
  21. DrDoggy

    DrDoggy New Member

    Messages:
    4
    yes TY!




    "you need to wash the same material many more times than once!" --- that is new to me, how many times, also do i re add ice and stir for 20 each time, or change/drain the water?

    You can also get very low yields very easily from less than outstanding flower that is not visibly caked with a lot of trichomes. --- yes this stuff isnt very sparkly, but lots of red hair, is the red hair worth much and can it be filtered? is there still thc in it , is there a way to extract it?

    broke your flowers up enough to begin with for sure --- is that indication of overkill, or is breaking up better cause it was compressed, should i just throw in full buds when they are fluffy?

    less resin inside the trichomes -- I understand now that the canaboids are in these trichomes , is that where the thc hides too?

    Although it is similar to this:
    http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Yaznaki1/media/scans/14ad6b80.jpg.html
    again I dont see much crystals but I am confused cause i know there is thc in the weed?

    Mod note: posts merged
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
  22. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,931
    Yes, the trichomes are where the cannabinoids and terpenoids are mainly found on most cannabis plants. The natural world varies a lot and there will probably be rare exceptions out there! To begin with, THC is a cannabinoid, and cannabinoids are a kind of terpenoid. All terp production (ie: all of the above compounds) predominately takes place inside the secretory cells and cavities in the glandular stalked trichomes (the 'crystal' ball on the end of a stalk) found in varying amounts on the flowers and proximal leaves/shoots (IIRC this is the order of quantity from highest to lowest concentrations).

    Multiple washes means do one agitation, drain the water and filter, add new water, repeat. It can take a great many washes to exhaust your material.

    That picture you shared definitely has visible resin (remember mature resin can be more yellow or amber/brown and is less transparent/crystally looking, especially in some photos) but you really need to look under a macro lens with at least 30x magnification to see the trichomes clearly and get an idea of their quality, maturity and prevalence/predominate type.

    The hairs you talk about are called pistils. These are not a useful source of actives.
     
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  23. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

    Messages:
    560
    Location:
    The War Room
    Peace all!

    If this helps @DrDoggy , I grabbed two random pics just to help you with a visual.

    The "frosty" stuff in the first pic are the trikes (glands) - not the hairs.

    Second pic is somebody's closeup of some trikes.

    You can get a cheap loupe off Amazon to see fairly close, I've been using this one forever: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00533VJSG/

    Peace everyone!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  24. killick

    killick But I like it!

    Messages:
    1,712
    Location:
    Okanagan
    @DrDoggy have you thought about possibly trying dry sifting for smaller amounts? Even a RYOT silk screen box, or just snagging some silk screen material from Amazona, and you can be off to the dry sifting races.
     
  25. dorkus_molorkus

    dorkus_molorkus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,248
    I reckon you guys are overthinking this just a tad.

    The easiest way to make bubbles at school is to fart in a puddle.....
    Of course being the school crossing guard, on occasion it can get me some looks from some of the parents.

    but fuck em if they cant take a joke.:evil:


    This guy gets it.
    I really like his enthusiasm.:clap:

     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016

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