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Perfect e-nail - how should it be constructed?

Discussion in 'Vapor Related Equipment' started by Hogni, Sep 1, 2016.

  1. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    3,765
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    When you or somebody else would build an ideal e-nail for you which components and functions should it have?
     
  2. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,945
    Take this all with a grain of salt as I have not actually built one. But if I was going to:

    1. Omron E5CC-QX PID controller
    2. External solid state relay (SSR) - Omron manual provides specs on SSR
    3. Two power switches, on for the main power and one to switch coil power on/off
    4. XLR 5-pin coil connector wired as 1 & 2 = AC power, 3 & 4 = thermocouple +/-, and 5 = ground.
    5. Any enclosure you want to use to contain it.

    Hopefully, some guys who have done DYI will chime in with more details and experience.

    Cheers

    P.S.

    Here is one location where you can buy all of the parts:

    Omron E5CC PID - http://www.e-nail.org/PID-Controller/Omron-E5CC-Temperature-Controller.html

    Misc parts: http://www.e-nail.org/EnailParts

    Might want to read this: http://www.e-nail.org/DIY-Enail.html

    And read the returns from this google search: https://www.google.com/#q=DYI+enail
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  3. chainz

    chainz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    62
    Stealing Baron's format, but iv been wanting to build my own for a while with the following:

    1. PID controller: osPID (Open Source PID Controller)
    2. SSR: Any Solid State Relay, Im not sure if a specific SSR is better than another.
    3. Hardware: Fuse and power switch, for the main power. Removable power cord. Female 5-pin XLR (Wired the same as Dnail and compatible coils)
    4. Interface: Maybe a Raspberry Pi to interface with the osPID (EX: add digital switches to power down coils properly or initiate other functions)

    I think you could do alot more with this setup, the osPID is used by some to control reflow ovens and has a profiles feature.
    I think this could be used to tune coils to specific nail and carb cap combinations and reduce any temp drop when carbing.
     
  4. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    3,765
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Nice idea, would be perfect. But how to adjust?

    May be this controller could be interesting?

    -> https://www.hex-nail.com/
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
  5. DieHard

    DieHard Accessory supplier

    Messages:
    3,174
    Location:
    Limbo
    I don't need to build it myself. The perfect controller already exists. It is Errlectric. Theirs does not use a PID. They even have a controller that can run 4 coils at once. With no more drain on your mains than a single controller. The only down side that I can even fathom is that you have to use their proprietary nails.
     
  6. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    3,765
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Downside? No-go IMHO!
    Apart from that the Quad is really nice but all in all very expansive too!;)
    But who privately needs 4 coils the same time? A Duo would be nice but they seem not to have one
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
    KimDracula likes this.
  7. DieHard

    DieHard Accessory supplier

    Messages:
    3,174
    Location:
    Limbo
    Well to have an Herb nail and the Full quartz Nail going on 2 different pieces would be nice. Then if you have friends over...I have 2 singles and 4 different coil/nail setups. It is nice to set and forget it!
     
  8. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    3,765
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Yeah...a double controller! One driving the Sublimator Apollo for herbs and one a good nail of your choice for concentrates!

    Coil wires stainless steel braided and body of the controller in brushed stainless steel with rounded edges!
    Display black on white.

    Love ss-porn!
     
  9. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,945

    Once again, we all are completely entitled to our views and what makes certain products valuable and desirable to us. However, and with all due respect, that controller at basically $600 ain't 'perfect' to me. Its overpriced.

    Now, they may not use a proportional–integral–derivative algorithm in their device, but they are using some sort of control algorithm to reduce over/under shoot and maintain temp stability. Is it better than PID, maybe....but is any better really of value?

    I understand that the Errlectric's work very well, but how well do you need a controller to work? I'm getting -/+1 degree variance on my Auber RDK-300 and thanks to @mutten840's very generous help, I now have my G9 working within pretty much that same range.....and I can get 4 or 5 of these for what one Errlectic costs.

    Just saying...works real good....well yes from everything I have read. Made in USA, yep. Too expensive compared to competition, yep. Cost/benefit ratio justify the cost...nope, not for me.
     
    Warmaniac_209, JCat, j-bug and 2 others like this.
  10. brucee10

    brucee10 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    344
    They are almost definitely using a proportional–integral–derivative algorithm. Their "Soft Heat" technology sounds like using variable PID settings so that you pulse the coils up to desired temp instead of turning them on and letting them run constantly up to temp and over shooting. Will I buy an Errlectric? I really like building my own gadgets, but I've considered buying one just to experiment with. I really wish they'd follow Hex-Nail and go to a more attractive screen option. Anything but that 45 cent green LCD would make me happier.
     
    Warmaniac_209, SamuraiSam and Baron23 like this.
  11. chainz

    chainz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    62
    i was thinking something similar to that, thanks for showing me this.
     
  12. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,945
    I have looked this site over. Now, again the same caveat....we are all different, have different values, and perceive value in products differently and according to our desires, priorities, and resources.

    Ok...that's done.

    To tell you the truth....I don't want an enail controller with guest mode, mobile phone apps, wifi, and all of the rest. With the exception of Automatic Tuning, all of the features they tout are little add on doodads to me and don't have much to do with its principal function.

    Alright...the logging function could be useful....maybe.

    So, its another K type, thermocouple-feedback, temp controller, the website is certainly not oriented toward technical performance and related features, mostly UI stuff which again does not justify its high price to me.

    If there are other, real added value features in this box, the cited website does not mention them AFAIK.

    Its a $549 enail controller at $420 presently and ONLY if you order it before its actually available. Sorry, but again I don't see the added value to justify and extra $300-400 in cost.
     
    Hogni likes this.
  13. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    where the Cube rules!
    yeah, this is about $25 in parts (which is what i pay) ... but a product is about a lot more than parts cost, don't you think?

    a perfectly adequate PIC processor chip is @ $1, MOSFET (60 Amp) is @ $2.17, thermocouple @ $6 (or $0.15 if i make my own), MAX6675 @ $14 ($3.50 for 1000 quantity) ... 35 pages of assembly code (implements integer math PID algorithm) @ $priceless ... custom printed circuit board (3 iterations to get it to work, 2 more to get it right) @ time AND money.

    making something for retail sale takes more than a box of parts, eh? that is, something you actually want to buy - i'm with you on selecting the feature set that reflects your needs / desires ... definitely different for every user.

    personally, i like a $500 price point, or even $1,000 if the item has some artistic flair or elegant design - i appreciate (and will pay to own) good engineering.
     
  14. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,945
    Hi @Hippie Dickie - I do understand a price premium for either aesthetics or function/performance that's ground breaking.

    Sorry, but touch screen, a wooden box, and a bunch of snick snack UI features does not justify this price (to me) over other available products that already do the same function, with similar or identical performance that meets the most stringent requirements of the use case, for a hell of a lot less.

    And as far as aethetics....yeah, I get folks plunking down $3k for an artisan made piece of high end glass. I don't see any real artistic or unique design expression in this enail controller...or at least not enough for me to justify anything close to $500.

    Yep, we are all different, have different values we place on different features and functions. To me, however and with $150 temp controllers available out there, I don't see a premium price being justified.

    Cheers
     
    GSR and Hippie Dickie like this.
  15. DieHard

    DieHard Accessory supplier

    Messages:
    3,174
    Location:
    Limbo
    I have no issue with anyone purchasing any enail. I'm just sharing my knowledge. That's what this site is all about. I care about this community because it has helped me more than I can say. How much time did it take to get your controller (any brand) dialed in to your liking? I really liked the idea of the Errlectric having no parameters to set. Open the box, turn it on, dabbing perfection ready to go. No guessing games as to whether I have it set up for optimal results. I even reached out to Errlectric to get them to do an FC discount (with zero gain for me). "Fcfriends" gets you 23% off.
     
  16. alittledabwilldoya'

    alittledabwilldoya' Sapphire Powered Dabstronaut.

    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    CO
    I've been eyeing this thing for awhile:

    http://www.theaugusthaus.com/
    https://www.instagram.com/augusthaus/

    Doesn't use a PID.
    I contacted the designer, he said it uses a Ardino micro something or other.
    I don't know if this temperature control system is better than a traditional PID, but he was quite taken by it (I can't find the email @ the moment).

    I like the form, simple.
    I like the material, I've been thinking about wood enclosures for awhile.
    I also like the user controllable lights (reeeeeallly big palette to choose from).
    If you look through the IG page there's some videos taken with the lights on the cube facing up, with the rig on top of the lights, illuminated from below in funky laser light for psychedelic dabs!

    But it is only controllable through one's electronic device.
    And it's not cheap.

    Waaaaay cheaper than D-Nail custom wood enclosures though.


    Edit: Personally, I'm only interested in the controller, my nail tech is bleeding edge.
    :D

    Reedit: But, those big diamond knots are interesting.
    Would like to hit one that is brand new, cleaning would be involved, and I like carb-capping.
    :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2016
  17. DieHard

    DieHard Accessory supplier

    Messages:
    3,174
    Location:
    Limbo
    Would be cool if the lights were UV! Then put your Uv reactive rig on there .:worms:
     
    alittledabwilldoya' likes this.
  18. SamuraiSam

    SamuraiSam Extraction Technician

    Messages:
    959
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Rotary encoder knob to quickly and easily select temperature instead of pushing and holding up/down buttons. Small footprint.

    There are a few other features I'd personally want that I keep private since I think they'd be easy to implement in an Arduino based e-nail and I have a really interesting concept to try an emulate.

    I wonder whatever happened to it.

    [​IMG]
     
    j-bug likes this.
  19. alittledabwilldoya'

    alittledabwilldoya' Sapphire Powered Dabstronaut.

    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    CO
    I remember that picture, I wonder what happened to it too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  20. j-bug

    j-bug Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    290
    Hmm, I've been shopping around for enails and have relatively a fair bit of free time to fiddle with electronics and this looks like it might be a fun project and save quite a bit of money. The opportunity cost would be negligible as I'd be using hobby time anyway, hmm, time to research ...
     
  21. Hollabackatcha

    Hollabackatcha Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    MA
    I will raise this thread from the dead.

    1. Omron E5CC-QX
    2. SSR: D3808HK(8A) I used this because it was on hand. the D3805HK(5A) would work fine too.
    3. 5 pin female XLR wired Standard.
    4. Switched main power, obviously.
    5. Switched coil.
    6. Smallest aluminum case to fit.

    I built this to replace a basic H5 on my FP. The upgrade in performance is like night and day. If you are going to build a controller with a traditional PID, do yourself a favor and use a E5CC-QX.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
    Warmaniac_209 and JCat like this.

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