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PBW & the Chemistry of Clean

Discussion in 'Glass' started by t-dub, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Location:
    Oregon
    I am using this to clean ELBs instead of ISO, it works albeit slightly differently, and my wife doesn't have to clean out WalMart of ISO when she goes now :)

    It was her raised eyebrow, and the accumulating receipts, that got me to thinking in the first place ;)

    He caught me off guard as well, life isn't always what you expect, thanks for your support :)
    turk likes this.
  2. OO

    OO Technical Skeptical

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    First of all I would like to thank you for all the time you have spent on your well written response.

    I'm sure you understand my analogy wasn't meant to be extrapolated to incorporate all the aspects you have brought into it. And in may well be a very flawed analogy, but on the skin of it, there are some shared commonalities.

    I thought I'd share what information I have because T-dub implied concern that alternatives were necessary because people were braking their glass because of it, which I find to be somewhat concerning (for reasons I have covered). I'm not here to discredit or belittle what T-dub has spent his time on, only question the implied (or not?) necessity.

    While my assertion may seem out of line, I believe it is not. I assumed that proper cleaning techniques were being utilized. And in circumstances where they are, there is not an increased likelihood of breakage. My goal of getting to the bottom of the original "shake and break" comment was finally ascertained by your input, for which I am thankful. But if the correct technique is employed, then only lack of coordination is to blame, which is something that doesn't change with normal handling.

    I suspected that people who pay many monies for pretty toys don't like seeing it wasted when they break them consistently, so I suggested an alternative.

    BTW, there are other great ways to reduce the amount of mechanical input which is necessary for a person to input, like ultrasonic baths (really only practical for small pieces).
    I know the thread wasn't titled as such, I just wished to offer my advice.

    If you find my opinion to be objectionable, please feel free to disregard it, as I do not wish that it take away from the intent of the thread's author, I only feel that specialized cleaners are not necessary given proper techniques.

    A couple things for you T-dub, your self stated goal is to minimize necessary mechanical agitation. Other, less polar solvents might be what you are looking for. Also, please do not discount the danger of oxidizers, they have a great many drawbacks. (not to imply that you have done so, just a word of caution)
  3. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Location:
    Oregon
    Solvents are a NO GO as stated in my OP: "thing I dislike about liquid chemical solutions is that they tend to be expensive, bulky, hard to store and transport, and usually have a negative environmental impact." PBW is hardly a specialized cleaner, especialy if you are in the beer & wine business (they have lots of dirty glass to clean) or need to maintain CIP systems, tap lines etc. TSP has been used by painters for decades to prep surfaces because it leaves nothing behind. It used to be in automatic dish soap and a lot of things. The new environmentally friendly substitute, sodium metasilicate and the oxidizer actually potentiate each other. This stuff is very similar to deck wash, I plan to use it on my spa, its great in the dishwasher . . . its really neat stuff. It would clean the JET nicely I think. Thanks for the word of caution thats why I provided the MSDS sheets in my resource section.

    EDIT: Oh and on your plastic comment, thats great for lab glass, but I see very few quality plastic diffusers on the market. The JET and Steele Concept being the exceptions? I refuse to limit my vapor experience to these 2 items simply because my disability means I might break something, which is actually mine to break in the first place if I want.

    EDIT: Back to regularly scheduled programming please. I have video help coming in and have been holding off on glass cleaning for the weekend :freak: So I should have some video up of a "normal" cleaning session.

    Thanks everyone for your input please keep it coming I am excited to hear about the results folks are having who are trying it :)
    ogcook and Enchantre like this.
  4. Roger D

    Roger D Vapor Wizard

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  5. OKcomputer

    OKcomputer Kid A

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    Great info here, t-dub. I normally use iso as an initial wash for reclaim purposes, followed by iso and salt for the final polish. I think I'll be using PBW for the final polish from now on. I've used it in the past for beer brewing, actually. I think I'll continue the "shake and break" method, albeit with PBW instead of iso/salt. However, I can see how the ingenious pump method would be useful to those prone to accidents.

    OO, you're offering some useful information too. The problem is that a discussion of plastic vs. glass is better suited to its own thread, not a thread that already has a pretty big "aha" moment in the form of a really nice way to clean glass.
    OnlyHuman, t-dub and Roger D like this.
  6. max

    max This space available Staff Member

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    Correct. The thread topic is well defined. Let's stick to it.
  7. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Oregon
    Roger, fantastic photos and what a sparkling result WOW!!! :clap: Thanks for making the effort to share. I was wondering what you were using the Calgon for, looks like a nice solution for hard water stains and wetting agents. Good call :tup:

  8. Roger D

    Roger D Vapor Wizard

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    1,063
    The pleasure is all mine ;) I like my stuff neat, and I like to share

    Here water is very hard, I really needed so add something for that. Its making the percarbonate even more potent. The results are really great. This could be a good alternative
    That would be awesome to try and compare with the pbw, if this does the job just as good or is poorer on some aspects.
    I weighted 100g of calgon and 100g of percarbonate in a glass jar, mixed it by shaking. One or two spoons of the mix and steamy hot water gets the job done in 10 minutes, maybe more time for dirty crappy pieces.
    It is incredibly cheap to make and you need just a little. I'm happy I'll never had to buy some expensive cleaning juice
    turk and t-dub like this.
  9. Lou

    Lou Active Member

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    120
    How does it affect the labels? Does it kill on contact like the pbw?
  10. Roger D

    Roger D Vapor Wizard

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    1,063
    You can see on the above picture the label is pretty much faded, I personally find it looking better that way, looking back at how it used to be the first day I got it :

    [​IMG]


    Beh, it was not clean. It stains fast
  11. Lou

    Lou Active Member

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    120
    I would agree on your logo, however I like the ones on my pieces so I guess I would just be cautious.

    On a slightly related note, I have been curious about the product Lemi-shine that is used in dishwashers to remove hard water stains and mineral deposits (The water here is very hard ~232 mg/L). And ran across this interesting write up if anyone's interested http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2012/05/18/whats-in-lemi-shine/

    Has anyone else tried this stuff?
  12. OO

    OO Technical Skeptical

    Messages:
    1,167
    Location:
    Paraphernalia Museum
    Citric acid is pretty cheap in the stores, go check out the prices. Really you have many low pH options for removing hard water salts though, vinegar has been used for quite some time. You could make a solution with citric acid and sodium chloride, that should be effective enough.
  13. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    4,052
    Location:
    Oregon
    So I did my best to make this video brief which is why I am moving quickly. We have already seen cleaning power, this one is to show more of a routine cleaning of a fritted disc and a hydratube. I obviously need a sink mat/rack system and some more bumpers. I am sourcing some rubber material now similar to the "Vibra-Kill" pad that came with my scale.

    Dwell time was less than 5 minutes on each piece, I cleaned my whole collection, consecutively, in about 30 minutes. During dwell time one can, of course, be doing other things.

    Thats my cat jumping in at the end, Bennett is the only "Lab Accident" that I can never account for, ever, and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

    Special thanks to "Agent Smith" on camera :nod:

  14. Roger D

    Roger D Vapor Wizard

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    Awesome video and technique, almost perfect. For extra protection you can place something soft in the sink, in case of an accidental slip.
    The isolated gloves idea is really nice ! I'm definitely gonna get some tubing and plugs.
    Our products really seems so work the same ! Same color, they blend the same way with water.. That's cool for guys like me who can't buy PBW
    t-dub likes this.
  15. bleak

    bleak Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Nairobbery
    Thanks for the info t-dub!! I can't stand dirty glass, I'm going to buy some PBW. I found a supplier in Melbourne if anyones interested: http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/

    I was using Grungeoff previously, it works ok, but often needs excessive shaking even after an overnight soak. Plus I'm concerned about the ingredients in Grungeoff... they say its safe/biodegradable etc, but I found it left the skin on my hands incredibly dry and 'stripped' feeling, not good. So I started using rubber gloves, but I'm still worried about chemical residue getting into my body. Even with the gloves on, your skin almost inevitably come into contact with the cleaner somewhere during the process, or afterwards (eg. from splashes on the sink/countertop). Plus there could easily be residue inside the glass, which could make its way into your lungs. My sink area always smelled Grungeoff for hours after cleaning. I always gave my glass a very long and thorough rinse with hot water after using Grungeoff, and then washed down the sunk and countertop, but it would be nice not to be forced to use such a potent chemical in the first place, so such extreme rinsing isn't necessary.

    I've also used ISO/salt in the past, kind of the same problem, it needed a lot of shaking to remove bits of resin stuck in weird places.

    PBW is also much cheaper than ISO or Grungeoff. I think we have a winner!! Thanks again for bringing this to out attention.
    t-dub likes this.
  16. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Hey bleak thanks for the support from the "Aussie Posse" I love you guys from down under :rockon:

    Please keep us posted with your results (and everyone else I wanna see your clean glass) :) . If the cost of the PBW is too much I feel with what we understand here a super cheap home alternative would be achievable, but to what end . . .

    Love the way this stuff works in hard water . . .
    bleak likes this.
  17. Bouldorado

    Bouldorado Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    807
    Location:
    CO
    Does PBW burn your skin? I noticed you're wearing a glove in the video, but that could just be for increased grip. I ask because the MSDS has these side effects listed for skin contact: Irritant, prolonged contact will cause redness and blistering.
  18. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    4,052
    Location:
    Oregon
    The glove is for thermal protection, the hotter the water the better, and protection from prolonged exposure to the PBW. If you get it on your skin, it will feel a little slippery, easy enough to wash off. I have extreme psoriasis so contact dermatitis is an issue with me, so I keep an eye on it.
    ogcook likes this.
  19. bleak

    bleak Well-Known Member

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    187
    Location:
    Nairobbery
    Cheers t-dub, I will most definitely post my results here. I'll even do a video, as it would add some nice diversity to my youtube channel.

    PBW is cheap! AU$16.50 for 1lb, cheaper than Grungeoff or ISO. Its even the same brand you're using in the videos - http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=8712
    t-dub likes this.
  20. Frederick McGuire

    Frederick McGuire Aggressively Loungey

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    Location:
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    Have you bought from them yet/before?

    I had a look at the site, and the checkout page where you enter your details is more American than Australian (like using their crazy date formatting)

    It's probably just a default form or something they're using, but its a little disconcerting
  21. bleak

    bleak Well-Known Member

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    187
    Location:
    Nairobbery
    I haven't bought from them before. The physical shop isn't that far from me, so I'm just going to ride my bike there one day in the next week or two. They also have a phone number you can call, so they seem trustworthy. I would say these guys are better brewers than webdesigners hehehe

    Their prices are also in a weird format, it looks like $16,500 instead of $16.50. At first I thought maybe it was an industrial quantity :)

    Also noticed they have a free shipping deal if you quote a certain phrase. http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_other/terms_conditions.htm
  22. Roger D

    Roger D Vapor Wizard

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    1,063
    The gloves are a really nice idea.. A must have for every maniac. I am going to buy some to avoid contact with the products, we can't know the long therm effect with skin exposure. Skin is an organ. I clean a lot of stuff and the tip of my fingers lose their softness with hard water and detergents. I had a bunch of the product on my hands theses days, and that is not so nasty if you rinse fast. Moisturize guys. Jojoba oil ftw ;)

    So grunge off smells for hours ? Nasty. What I like with my powder is that there is no smell, no shaking, and acts really fast. I never had to wait more that a hour for a full clean no matter how nasty it was. In fact its more like 5 minutes for my everyday routine. The water has to be very warm so once its getting cold its kind useless to wait more. I throw it in something nasty to recycle it, like the toilets or some glass.

    I even used my product for PBW like puposes. My dad had a really dirty wine crystal carafe, with traces of wine and stuff let down for years. No way he could get it clean with common products. I got it clean in a hour. In fact I cleaned like 20 glass pieces, bottles, carafes, glasses. I've never seen glass that clean seriously.
    t-dub likes this.
  23. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    4,052
    Location:
    Oregon
    Ohhhh howww true :freak:

    Thats sooo coooll Roger D, thanks for sharing that. Its amazing the stuff that can be cleaned when we understand the anatomy of the stain, and bring the heat & chemicals to do the job correctly. Its a lot of fun :D

    (Pics or vids of glass cleaning, before/after always appreciated) :tup:
  24. Roger D

    Roger D Vapor Wizard

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    1,063
    [​IMG]






    [​IMG]






    [​IMG]





    [​IMG]

    I bought them a couple hours ago. Mapa gloves, thick version, I can't burn myself even with the hottest tap water available. For a couple of euros, that is totally worth it. I don't know why I didn't do it before
    t-dub likes this.
  25. Frederick McGuire

    Frederick McGuire Aggressively Loungey

    Messages:
    2,492
    Location:
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    I was just posting in the möbius thread, this snippet is relevant to this thread

    t-dub and Roger D like this.

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