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No heat decarb using enzymes

Discussion in 'Cooking with Cannabis' started by Puffers, Apr 3, 2013.

  1. Puffers

    Puffers Micro-Climate Mastermind

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    Sparked by some comments from a fellow member I have been looking into using Vitamin B-6 specifically pyridoxine and pyridoxal 5'Phosphate (P5P) for decarboxylation. In the interest of facilitating research and information I thought we should open discussion on the subject.

    The majority of pertinent info I have found thus far is here: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120046352

    Apparently the process is used for other medical applications needing decarboxylation like manufacturing of serotonin. Advantages to the process include limited decarb based upon amount of of the enzyme used and no cannabinoid degradation from heat.

    From the notes in the patent it appears that the enzyme can decarb an amount of THC equal to a bit more then double it's starting weight. So if you use 500mg of pyridoxine you can decarboxylate roughly 1 gram of pure THC.

    [0065] Alternatively, the same 7 g mass of cofactor B6 could fully decarboxylate raw cannabis with a potency of 15%. In fact, the 7 g of cofactor B6, when reacted with 100 g raw cannabis having a potency of greater than 15%, will limit decarboxylation to exactly 15 g of Δ9-THC.

    So being that pyridoxine is a water soluble enzyme, I plan on dissolving 200mg into water and using the mixture to decarb a 100mg sample of BHO. I will let you guys know the results, but part of why I am opening the discussion is that my edible effectiveness is extremely hit and miss. I would like to get feedback from other members interested in experimenting in the name of :science: so I can get consistent data.
     
  2. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

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    right on puffers.. i can't wait to see how it goes. way to take it there:science:
     
  3. Puffers

    Puffers Micro-Climate Mastermind

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    Thanks Buildozer, honestly a lot to do with my interest in this process is curbing some of the intimidation to patients posed by edible cooking. That and more selfish reasons of course because I am always looking for what I think of as "lazy edibles" that will be effective. I have another in the works involving a cold extraction on 2 cups of peanut butter, a few other ingredients, and almost an ounce of ABV it's picture worthy its looks like baby crap :lol:

    If this is effective though vitamin b6 is very commonly used in energy shots, I have some at the house i got from the dollar store. I never have time to cook medibles and butter with a bunch of little kids running around my house. How cool would it be to grind up a bit of herb, toss in some oil/alcohol, add some B6 or an energy shot all together let it sit overnite and BAM you got a heat-less potent medible a few hours later.
     
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  4. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

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    i am an edibles fan.. its a good base for the day.. i have the same taste in edibles too ha i want the strong ones, that are euphoric too.. but abv works for my needs too.. the high temp cannabinoids are what i feel need most in my edibles anyway. i usually just vape on top of it to balance things out.
    ya the hit n miss part of making edibles is annoying.. i mostly use just abv for this now.. and i often dont strain, so it will be a little stronger and last longer.. straining is what i have a problem w/ mostly.. when i dont strain i always get much higher... but when i do its more hit n miss.
    i love learning new things about herb science.. i'm thinking this is gonna be a lot less over my head than the florasol thread.. hah. i am not ready for that shit.. hah
    i really hope it works out.. this topic is very brand new to me.. can i expect some results some time soon?
     
  5. Puffers

    Puffers Micro-Climate Mastermind

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    Thanks for the interest,

    I think part of why edibles are hit and miss for me is my extremely fast metabolism, my body processes and burns off edibles before I can absorb them. I should probably start a thread for this too :lol: . This is why I will infuse a tincture to increase sub-mucousal delivery to the blood stream and bypassing the digestive. I am hoping that I will have some preliminary results in next week, time and resources permitting :)

    If u got any questions about stuff like florasol I'd be happy to help you understand if I can help. I love canna-science too


    Ya it's not really a setup for a weekend oiler that's for sure, closed loop extraction systems will run ya couple grand and are more suited for larger regular extractions like supplying a lots of patients or a dispensary. Doesn't mean we can't learn from it and try to apply the science elsewhere though right? :D
     
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  6. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

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    awesome.. i'll be looking out for those results..

    thanks for the offer w/ the florasol info... it's really demotivating, how it's not a simple at home thing though haha.. that's where my interest is mostly.. but i do love the science behind it so i'm gonna have to take you up on that offer at some point.. i'll do a bunch of digging first though.. thanks man, good luck
     
  7. Puffers

    Puffers Micro-Climate Mastermind

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Okay so I either just wasted some bho in the name of :science: or will make an awesome discovery in about an hour. :lol:

    So I didn't have time to get just vitamin b6 so just for kicks i took about 100mg of Chem Dawg bho into a 1/2 oz of 151. After the oil dissolved into the 151 I added the energy shot containing 40mg of P5P. Please note, I noticed after starting it was P5P and not regular pyridoxine like the patent and data I reviewed was based on. P5P is also effective I just don't know if it's the same 2:1 ratio of decarboxylation activity that was previously cited. If it is, I estimate the bho is somewhere around 80% thc of 100mg that would give me approximately 80mg of cannabinoids for my 2:1 ratio.

    I took this mixture and set it on my aroma top of my ssv overnite. My laser pointer measured the fluid temperature at about 115 degrees in the morning after about 8 or 9 hours. I put in my fridge for consumption later.

    Ok so as noted earlier I have trouble with edibles absorbing for me so 1.5 hrs before dosing I ate a meal high in starches and slower digesting casein (dairy) proteins. I followed this with a multi vitamin and 2g of omega fish oils. 20 min before dosing I prepped with a soy Lechitin capsule hoping it may help by being there around the same as active cannabinoids.

    The pink drink tasted just like an energy shot and I couldnt detect any burn from the 151 at all, I don't know if prolonged low temperatures overnite facilitated some evaporation of ethanol or if the small amount is covered easily.

    Disclaimer. I just threw this together for the sake of an easy experiment. The energy shot did not say anything at all about refrigerating or keeping in a cool place, either before or after opening. I do not know how advisable it is for me to heat it or leave it open for over 12 hours. I encourage you to do you own research before trying something similar unless your like me and don't worry about the consequences of being a guinea pig :tup:



    Sorry for the novel hopefully some of you found it helpful/interesting.


    Thanks for hanging in there with me Buildozer. It seems like it's working, I am starting to feel like i am coming up with a nice euphoria so far. The hardest part is not medicating to preserve my baseline. I haven't medicated in almost 5 hours and that Chem Dawg oil is calling my name.

    Ya it's definitely working, it's coming on really fast less then hour from dosing...... I think we might have a winner!!!!
     
  8. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

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    i had just finally forgot about this hah.. i really hope it turns out.. if not maybe next time... i'll have to be sure to check back in later on :peace:
     
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  9. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

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    Right ON Puffers! i"m glad it worked.. can you give an update from the next day.
    i'll give this a shot next time it's convenient... using the oven to decarb' edibles gets soo old ha.:tup:

    i finally read through that link.. it seems to mention using heat a lot more than you did though.. at least a few times through out the process.. i guess the whole deal is the "controlled decarboxlylation of THC"... i assumed you can dissolve some hash into some high proof ethanol and then just add enough B6 and let it sit for ???? and drink it. i guess it still needs the heat involved, at just below 220f for evaporation reasons?.. its not totally clear to me what the b6 does and how it does it.. i need to look into that and i think things will be more clear for me.
     
  10. Puffers

    Puffers Micro-Climate Mastermind

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    Okay for the results from yesterday they were typical to an edible experience for me which is to say it was unspectacular so I am not 100% sure how well it worked right now. The euphoria I got pretty much plateued for me for the next hour, around that point I broke out the torch/nail and the ssv.

    Your suggestion pour b6 into 151 was actually my next plan :D

    Now for the heat, I was rereading some of it the before I started my experiment and thats why I put it on my aroma top on the ssv I couldn't find mention of whether or not the B6 needs to be certain temperature for the reaction to take place. From the patent notes it didn't seem to say it was necessary to decarb with heat. Just that they used heat to: dry the cannabis to increase process efficiency, evaporate the solvent, and bond the then activated THC to the hemp oil for edible consumption. I could have misunderstood though, I will have to reread more carefully later. Still hoping I can just drop a gram or two of hash, a couple B6 tabs, in a half pint of 151 and just let it sit for a day or two :nod:
     
  11. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

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    nah i think you read it right.. i understood the same thing.. i just thought there was no heat at all involved in the process.. i get it, it's just i'm unclear if the heat might actually be needed a little?? i figured it was as simple as mixing in the b6 and letting it sit for a little bit..
    220f for 20 mins is the ~temp/time i decarb for... for fresh cut buds its not a big deal i guess.

    i feel like you can dissolve the hash in just a little more than enough alcohol, and just add some B6 and wait.. i dont see a real reason to evap other than preferance, or unless a little heat is needed for it to react? i wonder if there will be a visual difference once it decarb's. i noticed they also say you can supplement B6 w/ Limonene, the stuff used in the pure gold caps i hear.... i came across all this B6 hate info ha.. saying its no good for you and stuff..
    Also i read something that led me to think that maybe you can even pre-dose w/ the B6 and follow it ~30 mins later w/ an ethanol dissolved hash dose??<------ i don't know about that though
     
  12. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    Props on the experiment!

    I don't think the b6 works just by itself, it's just part of a bigger process. You need fats, to allow the cannabinoids to attach to so they can go throughout different parts of the body. For instance monounsaturated goes to the lymphatic system, saturated fat to the the organs, and polyunsaturated to the muscles. The B6 just allows the cannabinoid acids to break apart, and let the psychoactive thc attach, and other cannaboids to the fats, being that cannabinoid acids are water soluble.

    Puffers, did you try to egg sandwich thing, I mentioned in the other thread. It may be what you need to get the cannabis ingesting effects you want. Eggs are perfect being that they have everything needed, although in small amounts, but using 2-3 eggs should be sufficient.
     
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  13. Puffers

    Puffers Micro-Climate Mastermind

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    Hey L,

    Thanks for your input. If all the B6 does is remove the carboxyl acid group and allow an active thc to bond with the ethanol, then it shouldn't need any fats right?


    The egg sandwich, I haven't tried yet. Wish I woulda remembered this weekend, would of been perfect. Egg sandwiches/burritos are a pretty regular part of my weekend diet anyway. I ate almost a dozen eggs this weekend :)
     
  14. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    The b6 is used by enzymes in the body to do this, not by itself. It is what's called a cofactor.

    It may be a good thing that you didn't use the concentrate because it may have been too strong. When my friend used eggs, he put a lot of herb in it, and said it was real strong. You said your tolerance is high, but it's good to start low then go up in time, to learn what amount you should use for certain effects. Better to be safe then sorry.

    You can make an avocado dip(has a good amount of b6, and good fats) that has herb mixed in it also, if you want something to eat with your chips.
     
  15. darkrom

    darkrom Great Scott!

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    What is this egg sandwich thing? I can't find that.
     
  16. Puffers

    Puffers Micro-Climate Mastermind

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  17. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    Just whip your eggs with herb/concentrate in it, and cook the eggs like normal. Just use real butter, instead of margarine because some margarine contain trans fats which aren't broken down properly, which means a lot of cannabinoids may go to waste.
     
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  18. darkrom

    darkrom Great Scott!

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    Thanks you 2!
     
  19. Balla

    Balla New Member

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    Hey Puffers I read the same article and I am currently testing both pyridoxine and P5P. I think it's very important to figure out which one actually because it will be the best way to decarb. You can buy both in pill form very cheaply almost anywhere for pyridoxine and a vitamin shop for P5P, both are vitamin B6. I do know P5P has decarboxylase activity and from what I know pyridoxine is not an active form of VitB6. Did you get any results of evident decarboxylation with either or? I definitely got CO2 gas coming off one or the other I misplaced the tags on the jar =/ im going to test it again though.
     
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  20. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

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    welcome Balla.. i'm glad you are testing this, i had forgotten all about it and never tried it.. i'm looking forward to your results.
     
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  21. Puffers

    Puffers Micro-Climate Mastermind

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    Hey guys due to work changes I havent had time to run any more tests and my first while it seemed at least partially successful I still think of it as inconclusive.

    Balla. keep us updated I think I was using P5P as that's what seemed referenced most often in the patent info iirc. Love to hear your results though.
     
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  22. fft

    fft Well-Known Member

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    Thought I'd revive this thread as I was trolling the internet for better decarb knowledge (like many on this forum before me) and stumbled upon this same patent.

    The process he mentions makes little sense to me:
    • He first does "drying" step at 220F, which sounds like it will partially decarb the cannabis by itself. Actually in one part of the patent he mentions a 220F drying step, but in his example uses 250F for 20 minutes.
    • Then he adds the solvent (interesting idea to use vanilla extract for flavor) and the cofactor, the latter of which is measured in a molar ratio to control what % of the THCA decarbs (as if someone is trying to get less than 100% conversion in order to preserve THCA - who wants that?)
    • Then he heats it up, first boiling off the alcohol/solvent, then boiling off water (I dont see the step where water was added unless it was in the ethanol... like in @Puffers 151)
    • He mentions that the decarb then occurs near the water boiling point of 212F due to the co-factor
    • Then he says to add an oil that will go into the foodstuff. He says the oil can be added either before or after the solvent and co-factor.
    • Then he advocates heating the oil / cannabis solution to a temperature somewhere just below the THC boiling point of 314F. The objective is to bind the THC to the lipid, which ostensibly makes it more shelf stable and more easily absorbed. But at those temps aren't you completely decarbing and degrading the THC anyway? Unless the cofactor offers some thermal protection which I never saw mentioned (and it seems beyond what a enzyme normally does).
    The guy with the patent Andy Hospodor describes himself as an "Intellectual Property Expert" on his LinkedIn profile, and it looks like his day job is in computer science. Its interesting because I wonder whose lab he is using, or whether he's in the CA edible business somehow. Or whether he's somehow trying to corner the edible market with a patent strategy.

    A few other thoughts:
    • If I were doing this I might use Limonene (which is mentioned as an alternative) instead of B6. With B6, in the example he is using roughly 0.5g B6 per gram of THC produced. There are toxicity concerns around B6 dosages starting at 100mg/day. I'm not an expert on either but I would want to check up on this more.
    • Separate issue, but I have yet to find the reason why everyone thinks its necessary to dry the Cannabis before the decarb - or that drying and decarbing are the same thing. In this 2003 patent from GW Pharma, they do a first heating step at a lower 220F "to evaporate off retained water and allow for uniform heating of the plant material". This I get - getting the water out first means everything will heat more evenly later (and if the cannabis still contains water then some pockets havent yet heated to decarb temp). But in this Hospodor method in particular, they are drying it then they are getting it wet again, so I dont see the point.
    If anyone has a better understanding of this and can shed some light, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I'm not sure what to make of this.
     
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  23. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    I changed my way of doing this now. I just make a tea out of the herb, and use lemon juice from a whole lemon. Before I drink the tea, I drink some orange juice or grapefruit juice around 1-2 hours before drinking the tea. The citrus juice activate detoxifying enzymes in the liver that will break the acid from the thc, and give a high, as well as provide the fructose, and glucose, the source of energy my liver needs to do its job. This is my theory, since I can't find prove this is actually happening with cannabis. There is just proof that the limonene, and other flavonoids in the fruit, is activating these enzymes. THCA is water soluble, and is the form thc is in when using raw material that isn't old, or has been heated. If I use a concentrate, I use some type of nut milk to keep the concentrate from coming together,and put a little honey or syrup to give the milk some sweet flavor as well as give my liver fructose, and glucose, so it can have energy to do its job.. If you just use water, for some reason it acts different using a concentrate then raw bud.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
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  24. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Citric acid extractions and decarbing of cannabis are common, your whole lemon in your tea might be accomplishing this.

    http://cannapedia.me/tiki-index.php?page=Citric Acid Extraction

     
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  25. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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