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next generation e-nails?

Discussion in 'Vapor Related Equipment' started by bassplayer, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. HexNailAva

    HexNailAva Co-Owner & CMO (Hex-Nail) Manufacturer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    So...I'll go into more detail tomorrow when we release the latest video featuring our Glob Mode option. Lets just say we're pretty sure we've gotcha covered on this one, guys. ;)

    Just to scratch the surface here...We're not running a mobile-based software. It's not based around Apple's Modified Linux iOS, Android, or any other 'for mobile' operating system.

    While software issues come up in apps a lot it's generally because people lazily repurpose old framework from a 'proven' app. We are constructing native apps for each platform from scratch.

    And we understand your lack of desire for connectivity (and anyone else's, considering current federal law), but the Hex-Nail NEVER has to be 'connected' in any way to be fully functional. The functionality is there, but if you don't want to use it, you never have to.
     
  2. N1ghtWalker

    N1ghtWalker Member

    Messages:
    74
    The problem, that is this site that you indicated to me, is in the USA. Only to send to Portugal are 20 €. Also, the prices are reasonable as it is in the european area. Does not make up for it! So can I trust the first link? The bubbler I have is D021. It is 18mm this is 18.8mm. It's the same, right? Are you sure it's really value? Thank you.
     
  3. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,616
    Mobile, desktop or ground up proprietary OS, I will believe the claims to stability when I see them. Nothing personal of course! :peace:

    Thanks for acknowledging the lack of desire for connectivity, but I need to be very specific. If I cannot fully disable the wifi, bluetooth and any other wireless communication adapters (in a way that no app, nor the OS can possibly be able to use without first being enabled and drivers installed! Simply having wifi or bluetooth turned on and enabled but leaving it disconnected is not good enough for my needs) and be able to do any required updates using a USB or SD card (NOT INTERNET, NEVER INTERNET!), then I will never buy your product. I don't want the relevant adapters to even be able to function, look at surrounding networks, be visible as a bluetooth device or wifi device etc.

    Again I'm really not trying to give you the third degree here, what you are doing is admirable and there are some great ideas, but I hope you guys will understand what I'm saying and provide these options for users who are not interested in their e-nail being a cyber attack vector, visible to neighbors or snooping authorities. As you acknowledge with the mention of federal law, this isn't paranoia, just prudence. IMO if we don't want any chance of accidentally broadcasting that we have cannabis extracts to anyone and everyone scouring the airwaves, then the answer is not to have the hardware capable of doing it in the first place in your e-nail (or at least having it fully disabled in a way that would require significant user input and physical access to enable)!

    EDIT: P.S. anything requiring users to register or create an account online with hexnail or anything remotely similar is also an absolute deal-breaker. There must be an option to operate completely offline with no recording of usage data for users who are security conscious.

    I should say that I am firmly within the market that you would be looking to target - being a daily medical patient who creates the very best quality of artisenal concentrates for my medicine and won't consume these meds with anything less than the best dab setup! If you can meet these requirements that I mention, I actually would very strongly consider purchasing your product :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
    Dr200 likes this.
  4. throwawaytre3s

    throwawaytre3s Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    427
    I have a question here, given that I've only used the simplist of enails (I use an auber instruments digital controller with a generic ti enail on a china glass rig), but given that a large portion of this thread is about controllers, how much better can a better controller make my concentrate experience? It's just a heat source. If I know the temp readout is calibrated correctly, then other than ease of use how much better can it get? I mean once you set your temp it sits there, and it's usually easy enough to change. I'm just a little curious as to why it matters beyond that?
     
    KimDracula likes this.
  5. HexNailAva

    HexNailAva Co-Owner & CMO (Hex-Nail) Manufacturer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    In short, stability. Better controllers for e-nails (no matter what hardware they're based on) tend to focus on set temperature stability.

    Drop your dab on the nail, it starts to cool down. Similar to the way a torch dab works (but e-nails are constantly fed more juice). Potentially making the vape experience worse, or even cooling off so much that you 'lose' product by it simply not being worth it to suck on your rig for 2 minutes to get it all.

    There's a TON more to the controller than that, but temperature stability and maintenance should always be at the forefront of a controller design, I'd think.

    I think the next step for e-nail is FASTER power adjustment & regulation, to further maintain that stability. Say, when dabbing through 0.3g of shatter in one go. :D
     
    hardboiledfrog, mutten840 and Shrike like this.
  6. DieHard

    DieHard Vertical transportation specialist. Company Rep

    Messages:
    3,098
    Location:
    Limbo
    I'm with @herbivore21 on all of the connectivity issues. I really like some of the other features, but outside of all of the Bluetooth and wifi, I don't see anything really new there. The rising/ descending temp option is ok I guess but I see that as a novelty I will try but not make part of my daily routine. For me the thing that has ticked enough boxes to be next-gen is my Errlectric MobilEnail. Yes, I know I. Still dabbing off a quartz banger style nail, but it just works well!
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,616
    To be fair man, the hexnail features such as temp variation during the dab could make a huge difference (could also break sapphire dishes if the configuration isn't super tight! I definitely don't wanna be the first to use any such device with a sapphire e-nail until I know it is tried and true by existing long-term users or the company will warranty broken dishes - which is highly unlikely!).

    D-nail's stable uptemp method is really very useful IME and deserves credit. If this sort of thing is incorporated into a controller, it would be wonderful!

    Also man the mobile e-nail from errlectric may have a next-gen controller, but we both know that those nails were next-gen in 2012/2013 :p

    I once thought quartz bangers for e-nails worked well too. That idea was blown out of the water by SiC and then Sapphire made the thought of settling for quartz seem like a very distant memory! Once I moved onto higher end concentrates quartz and I had our final divorce. Conductive quartz doesn't evenly/efficiently heat all of the dab by comparison and the melt takes longer, the vapor takes longer still and the trails of wasted vapor after the hit are enormous (I say conductive quartz because IME the evo overcomes this problem with glass or quartz by enlisting convection to even out the temps throughout the dish)!

    Even the wicking quartz d-nail halo has this problem to an admittedly lesser extent than other, much more expensive quartz nails; but still, they're all useless for my needs now. Even with rosin and solvent extracts, quartz was only good at temps low enough to cause significant pooling and trails IME. Our meds are so expensive (especially for someone that basically only uses full melt now like myself!), it makes much more sense to use a nail that makes the whole dab taste good, from start to finish and ensures none of the dab is wasted - rather than just doing more and more dabs and wasting significant quantities of medicine to taste it!

    I am not just saying this for you man, I know you have heard this stuff from me plenty already lol, but so many people seem to think that the choice is still 'waste it, or don't taste it'. With SiC and Sapphire, this is a thing of the past. :peace::2c:

    But I digress: @HexNailAva what are your thoughts on the possibility of offering hexnails with no wireless connectivity and offline software updating capabilities?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
    KimDracula likes this.
  8. HexNailAva

    HexNailAva Co-Owner & CMO (Hex-Nail) Manufacturer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Most seem okay with just having the option to disable it in the settings, but we completely understand that some folks prefer to be more 'off the grid' than that.

    There are a few ways we could go about doing this.

    Simplest of which would be to just not have ANY actual Wi-fi or Bluetooth functionality in the software itself. It's wouldn't be 'disabled' in the OS or options. The Hex-Nail would have no possible access to it in any way. It essentially wouldn't exist (meaning it couldn't be accessed in ANY way from ANY where).

    Unless someone broke into your house, opened your nail, wiped it, installed a new OS, and that OS could use the hardware...then it may be possible for someone to access it, in a sense. They'd also need to know all of your networking information.

    The other of way would be to release a modified model of the Hex-Nail with different internals, that would be upgraded via SD Card through the post. This would of course be a much more lengthy option. Not out of the scope at all, just a longer wait.
     
    mutten840 likes this.
  9. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,616
    If there were a version of the hex-nail that had some kind of USB flash/sd card style interface this would become something quite appealing for my needs!

    I just really do not want to connect devices to networks if they don't need to be :) I do not require any bluetooth or wifi connectivity and would prefer a device that isn't using these at all. I can't see any function that would benefit from networking here aside from the updating which can be handled in the way you suggest. Remote control from a smartphone is not necessary for me and for many of us it is not at all prudent to have software on our phones relating to vape hardware!

    I understand the time considerations you mention completely, since it sounds like you guys are all but ready to ship! I wish you all the best in this :)

    Would you possibly be able to add in a USB port as part of the hardware IO in a future release, with a model that does not contain any networking/wireless hardware? This would be even cheaper than an SD card reader, that way you guys could upload any updates onto your website for folks to download, copy to a USB flash and install like a computer software update :) This is also an excellent alternative for those who have no internet or shitty wifi in their vape-space!
     
  10. HexNailAva

    HexNailAva Co-Owner & CMO (Hex-Nail) Manufacturer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    As a matter of fact, yes. USB ports for charging/updates/etc both on and off the grid is a feature we want to implement further down the road.

    As you described, we'd release the software updates via our site thus allowing you to update via the Hex-Nail directly (via wi-fi) or via flash memory of some form or another. SD Card, USB Drive, etc.

    -----

    I have extravagant aspirations for a new flagship down the road after we flesh out the software a lot more over the course of 2017.

    Just try to imagine the most...excessive...but functionally solid e-nail you've ever thought of...and double it. I come from both a hobby and manufacturing background in the Audiophile industry. I loooooooooooove ridiculously huge transformers...and tubes...

    Don't worry, it isn't coming soon, and it won't replace the HN-01...Heck parts cost alone would be over $800. It'd also weigh around 100 pounds...but I want it. So I'mma make it some day. :tup:
     
    mutten840 and Shrike like this.
  11. hardboiledfrog

    hardboiledfrog tinkerer

    Messages:
    34
    I feel the biggest issue with current e-nail rigs is the poor thermal interface between nails and heaters, for example all of the complaints in the Liger threads. Heating with conduction makes it difficult to maintain temperature stability, it's just the nature of the beast. This is why I focused on induction heating, it doesn't require contact with the nail, it's just more efficient.

    This would give you the "FASTER power adjustment & regulation, to further maintain that stability" that you want and I feel this could and should be the next generation e-nail heaters.

    Unfortunately it only works with metallic objects although I think it might be possible to come up with a ceramic mixture that may work.

    And on the subject of stability I feel that one needs to look at the whole e-nail rig as a system. For example as the coil ages physical contact with the nail degrades and since you're controlling temp via thermocouple internal to the heater actual nail temperature drops over time. The best controllers available will still have stability issues if you're calculating temperature feedback vs. a direct measurement of the nail.
    So I chose to spot-weld my thermocouple right to the nail to insure I get the best system temperature stability. :D

    But you do have a very nice product there in the Hexnail, the UI is very :cool: and really love the nice wood box. :tup:
     
  12. Monsoon

    Monsoon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,411
    Location:
    Canada
    I wonder if some sort of user calibration option for the Hex-Nail would be useful if possible variations are big enough. Set the temp and then use a thermo-coupler to verify that the nail reading matches up kinda like calibrating a scale.
     
  13. hardboiledfrog

    hardboiledfrog tinkerer

    Messages:
    34
    Not a bad idea, I'm not sure how to determine how often to calibrate though, maybe when the taste changes. Thermocouple on the nail still rules, we just need an easier method to attach it, still working on this.
     
    Monsoon likes this.
  14. PoopMachine

    PoopMachine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,303
    Location:
    Somewhere Jus Lyke Compton
    Im super excited about the HexNail, especially since they're working to incorporate Subliminator controlling in the box as well.

    I really dont see how you guys can say the HexNail isn't next gen. Its way more next gen than anything else out there,.

    - Doesnt use a PID
    - Multiple user profiles
    - Wifi/Bluetooth connectivity
    - Updateable firmware
    - Custom calibrations for popular nails.

    And thats just what I'm thinking about now. Maybe the next Dnail unit will be comparable but I bet it will be a whole lot more money. They get almost as much as the HexNail for their unit without a display.

    What would also be cool is a custom scripting language you could use to write your own heating algorithms. Im sure they have probably already thought of that tho.
     
  15. alittledabwilldoya'

    alittledabwilldoya' Sapphire Powered Dabstronaut.

    Messages:
    428
    Location:
    CO
    Are people saying it isn't next gen?
    Seems like the next thing to me.
    Programmable up-temp dabbing with user defined starting and ending temperatures over a user defined time period, what's not to like?
    Not to mention the custom nail calibrations.
    Have you guys seen this pic: https://www.instagram.com/p/BLwsQQQDDcH/?taken-by=hexnail ?
    Looks likes lots of data (and a bunch of additional heat sinks?).


    Now will it actually offer a better dabbing experience other than the user interface and sexy wood enclosure?

    We will see.

    :science:
     
  16. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,442
    I agree that Hex Nail is going after some ground breaking functionality and so far I have been delighted about what they say are their design philosophy and business ethics.

    With regard to PID, however....I just wonder why PID gets such derision. You folks probably know better than I that PID = proportional–integral–derivative and is just a feedback control algorithm. I don't care if its PID or some home grown algorithm...as long as it maintains stable temperature, right?

    The advantage of PID is its VERY well hardened and use tested and is available off the shelf in a wide array of process controllers.

    So, Hex is writing their own software, to include the basic control algorithm, themselves, yeah? Very nice...but the proof is in the pudding and any software that they write has to prove out in the field before I will give it applause.

    I wish them the best and I'm keeping an eye out for it. I like what they say, but I want to see what they do.

    Cheers
     
  17. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,616
    I don't think anyone said it wasn't next gen man, only seen positive talk about the hex-nail around FC except for hardboiled frog and even then, they were hardly scathing!

    The only other person I've seen saying anything about any hex-nail drawbacks is me. That is because I won't buy an e-nail product or vape with bluetooth or wifi (there is not one single feature useful for my needs that necessitates these security vulnerabilities being included in the design either, given that firmware updates can be installed using a USB or SD card as Hex-nail folks and I have discussed).

    It can be reasonably expected that others will feel the same way, given the current state of the material we use in these devices where the law is concerned - nobody who is in an illegal jurisdiction wants their e-nail broadcasting information/sitting there as a target for hackers (and let's face it, nobody can claim ignorance to the inherent dangers of connected household appliances; during this, the late infancy of 'the internet of things').

    The point is not that it is not 'next gen' to include these interfaces, my point is that manufacturers NEED to be security conscious when designing products - they need to consider the security/privacy needs of their clients - in this industry in particular! Hex-nail are addressing these concerns in a later design of course.

    The computer hardware/firmware/OS/application design of the hex-nail does offer benefits in terms of controller operation and more complex heater behavior, this is great. What the member who posted above suggests about the changing thermal properties of heater coils over their lifespan and the lesser conduction being achieved to the nail from the same coil as the coil ages still stands though - there are still variables not accounted for yet and the perfect heater controller is still a ways away, hot runner coils are going to need to be replaced IMO to achieve better results, but of course everyone is invested in the hot-runner coil ecosystem right now so no vendor wants to jump ship first and risk losing a large market share in the short term.

    We have not got a perfect temp control solution until these kinds of factors are accounted for - however by the same token, @hardboiledfrog those of us using sapphire e-nails are not going to be spot-welding a thermocouple to their dishes anytime soon! Seems like that solution is only going to help folks using ti nails lol

    What I am saying is that I do not recommend that anybody owns such a device in non-legal jurisdictions or if they exist in legal grey-areas. When the no-bluetooth no-wifi version comes out, these criticisms will fade away :)

    One other thing I will mention while we discuss this as well: If the hex-nail or other new 'computer e-nails' require users to create an account online with them and/or log-in to use various features of the product or access software updates, count me out. I want no log-in, no sign-up - and will accept no ifs, no buts and no coconuts on this point!

    I should say that nobody at Hex-nail has suggested that such account sign-up will be required anywhere that I have read yet - this is just a general statement I am putting out there for would-be e-nail/vape designers to prevent this widespread practice in consumer electronics taking hold in the vape industry (where it is especially inappropriate). I do apologise for hex-nail seemingly getting the third degree here, since really they are just one of the first vendors I've known of incorporating computer hardware/software into an e-nail and so they become the first instance where these concerns emerge and must be raised.


    I couldn't agree more with all of this, my friend!
     
    hardboiledfrog, DieHard and Monsoon like this.
  18. mutten840

    mutten840 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    245
    Location:
    Renton, Washington
    I am personally excited for the Hex-nail and do not expect everyone to jump on board. But this is why there are other options out there =)

    I have yet to see a company soo open to feedback and implementation of requested features. Gonna use the shit out of glob mode and look forward to tracking my consumption.

    GLOB mode!!!!
     
  19. PoopMachine

    PoopMachine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,303
    Location:
    Somewhere Jus Lyke Compton
    Ill agree with a lot of your points but there have been others that have brought up how they dont feel this controller is next gen so Im not singling you out by any means.

    If you can sign up with a free remailer service, you wouldnt feel okay about that? Even here in the US I just cant see these people getting raided for a customer list. There are a whole lot richer treasure troves than that. Any of the vape companies customer list would be better than what you'd get here.

    I do agree that privacy should be a concern and Im sure it is. And to allow remote operation outside the house, they will have to log your IP somewhere but the amount of BS anyone would have to go through to get that converted back to someone's name would be pretty involved. Jurisdiction issues, privacy issues, getting warrants to get ISPs to cough up names of their customers, etc. But yea, privacy should be a concern.

    @Baron23, Ava mentioned that they couldnt get the performance they wanted out of a PID. Granted thats not next gen stuff since Errlectric has already done the same.
     
    mutten840 likes this.
  20. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,616
    No problem at all brother. In response to your question, I'm not 100% clear on what you mean by 'free remailer service'? Once I'm clear with that I can respond.

    BTW, one question I have here is why do we need remote operation? I assume that we do not need to use our enails when we are not present? I find I only need 2-5 mins to turn my d-nail on from cold for a dab with the Sapphire Liger or Sapphire halo. If I forget to turn it off that could much more simply and securely be addressed with a timer or remembering to turn it off when I leave (in fact, I believe most PID's actually have a timer capability built into them and it is simply a matter of learning how to use the setting!).

    Another question is all the above aside, why do we need both wifi and bluetooth? It seems unnecessary to use two wireless communications standards when all of the related functionality could be handled by wifi alone (or even bluetooth alone; although admittedly this is jenky for internet functionality, requiring tethering to other devices in order to use their internet connection on the hex-nail and increasing the number of things that can go wrong along the way).

    You are right-on to highlight that errlectric have designed a microprocessor based alternative to PID's too bro - the hex-nail isn't a first that sense.

    I'm interested to see what the new crop of e-nails turn out like with all of this being said. I just wanna make sure that we can get better and more sophisticated heater behavior without being forced into compromising our data security and connecting ourselves online more than we might want to, it looks like hex-nail are gonna play ball in the long-run though, so all is well :)
     
  21. mutten840

    mutten840 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    245
    Location:
    Renton, Washington
    @herbivore21 didnt you already say they are going to make an offline version. Also there are other brands out there to choose from. So you could always just always stick with your dnail controller, since it does what is needed.
     
  22. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,616
    Yes, I said that hex-nail will make an offline version in the post you just replied to:

    As to what I meant by 'more sophisticated heater behavior, that is addressed in my previous post before that:

    To elaborate, I mean things like having stable uptemp heating as a preset option that the controller handles on it's own without manually switching heater coils on and off etc. These are not achievable results with a PID alone. These are not features that I can achieve with my current d-nail.
     
  23. hardboiledfrog

    hardboiledfrog tinkerer

    Messages:
    34
    I feel that PID controllers are too often blamed when it's more likely problems are due to an improper design of the whole system like the popular use of the hot runner heater coils on e-nails or even simply improper tuning of the PID parameters. A nozzle band heater style would have more surface area and should provide much better heat conduction.
    [​IMG]
    Or my favorite, induction coil heaters which don't require such close intimate contact with the nail.
    [​IMG]

    Actually, I like the Hexnail design, I think the graphs will be very useful for tuning. My critique was intended to point out what I feel is a huge issue with the heaters currently used.
    @herbivore21 gets it:
    Even new heaters can cause issues if they are not properly fitted to the nail as shown by the wide variations of ideal temperature settings reported by various users.


    Yes indeed it would be difficult to spot-weld to sapphire :), but I think given the superior thermal conduction property of sapphire and sic dishes in a bucket design like the liger attaching the thermocouple to the ti bucket should be accurate enough and still give better control than just having it read the internal temp of a hot runner coil.

    I programmed this function into my controller after seeing it mentioned here, thanks @Monsoon. Starting temp and ramp time are menu settings, end temp is the setpoint temp. I really like it so far, the flavors are amazing at the low temp end.
    [​IMG]
    :tup:
     
  24. weenstoned

    weenstoned Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    726
  25. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,616
    Holy shit, that is ridiculously cheap! Definitely an ideal time to check out SiC and like you say, if you find the dish space too small, it's not like you dropped too much cash on it :D
     

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