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Mason jar decarb what's going on in there??

Discussion in 'Cooking with Cannabis' started by Edgedamage, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. Edgedamage

    Edgedamage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    81
    I have been using mason jars to decarb for a couple of years now. My edibles work great, friends and family love them. I started out using a kitchen oven set to 250f for 40 mins, that has been my standard for ever. I built a PID controled toaster oven and it holds a temp I set and it stays there. The contents are always a dark green, never the light golden brown. So I started wondering about what is the air temp in the jar? And and how long does it take to match the air temp in the oven cavity? So I set up a test rig using both a kitchen oven and my PID controled toaster oven.
    [​IMG]
    Making sure the probe temp matches a cooking probe.
    [​IMG]
    Both match.
    [​IMG]
    Jar setup for testing.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    How I placed the probe in the jar.
    [​IMG]
    PID toaster oven.
    What I found is it took the air in the jar between 21 to 26 mins to match the oven internal temp. So what I am thinking is I am only really decarbing for 20mins during a 40min decarb. I ran a test last night I started the 40min timer after the jar air temp reached 115c / 240f. And I finally got the nice light golden brown cannabis. I want to hear peoples thoughts on this.
     
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  2. Madri-Gal

    Madri-Gal Child Of The Revolution

    Messages:
    279
    Location:
    Livin' in the 707
    I think you had success before, as friends and family liked your cannabis. I think it's amazing that you set up your oven and probes so nicely. That's admirable. I think it's great to experiment. I think people get very attached to what they think is the right, or best, decarb time and temp, so this should be a fun thread. Not the best thoughts I've ever had, but there they are. :2c:
     
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  3. CVC4455

    CVC4455 Member

    Messages:
    37
    I decarb in a sealed jar too. I've done something similar and I was getting about 20-25 minutes for the air in the jar to get to 240 degrees. But it's about more then just time and temperature in a sealed jar. When you heat a sealed container there's a difference in pressure inside the sealed jar vs if the jar had no lid while being heated. I kind of understand it but not really well enough to explain it without probably confusing you. But that difference in pressure can affect the boiling point of water and apparently it affects how fast the decarb happens. I've seen tests of a sealed jar decarb, both were at 240 degrees but one was for 60 minutes the other was 45 minutes. I forget the exact numbers but if you want I can try to find the lab results? But at 60 minutes there was no THC-A left it was all converted to THC and there were slight increases in other cannabinoids. But there was THC that was lost or destroyed or whatever. In the 45 minute decarb there was a very small % of THC-A left but it was such a small amount that I'd call it a full decarb. The total amount of THC was also higher meaning that 45 minutes was better than 60 minutes in a sealed jar. Originally I thought like you if the air in the jar takes at least 20 minutes to get to 240 degrees then it would make sense to add 20 minutes to the decarb but it doesn't exactly work like that.

    I'd suggest you try doing both though and see if can tell the difference?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
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  4. Edgedamage

    Edgedamage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    81
    I wonder how much was lost to the 60 min decarb? And I wonder how all this would work as I got a Instant Pot pressure cooker for xmas. I will do both in the pressure cooker 45 min and 60 min and check the results.
     
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  5. CVC4455

    CVC4455 Member

    Messages:
    37

    When I saw the lab results it was probably at least a year ago maybe longer. So I forget all the exact numbers, but there was enough THC lost in the 60 minute decarb to make it obvious that 60 minutes was too long. There was no THC-A left at all so it was fully decarbed, but there wasn't an equal increase in CBN (I had read if THC is heated or degrades too much it turns into CBN) or the other cannabinoids they tested for. So while you did gain a small amount of CBN and another cannabinoid or 2 it didn't seem like the small amount of increase in those cannabinoids was Worth losing that much THC? But I was experimenting with lots of different decarb times and tempatures for a long time, but without lab testing it's somewhat hard to know exactly what's going on. Also in a sealed jar you may save some terps, but you lose at least some when opening the jar and some are destroyed during the decarb.

    Im very interested in your pressure cooker idea! I have wanted to try it but I don't have one and without knowing if it would work better then my oven I didn't want to buy 1. Do you know how long it takes to build pressure or to get to temperature? Just wondering cause these might affect the decarb. I've also heard sous vide works well too. I think for that it's something like 90 or 115 minutes but I don't remember. But yeah can you please post about your results using the pressure cooker?
     
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  6. Edgedamage

    Edgedamage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    81
    Last night I ran 3 grams through the pressure cooker. For 60 mins at high pressure. The cooker took about 10 mins to pressurize. When done I did a quick release of pressure. I let the jar cool to room temp before opening. It was also a nice golden brown. Tonight I will do strength testing . And on Tuesday night I will do a couple of grams at 45 mins and test .
     
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  7. Mr.Newton

    Mr.Newton Member

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Kawartha Lakes
    I'm here in the peanut gallery cheering you on.

    Right up my alley since I am looking for new info on the how to do it better.I decarb in the oven,250 for 30 but the smell is too much since the last time I did 4 oz.I make an olive oil infusion.Got some Blue Widow that I want to make a tincture with and am in the process of deciding which method to use.Have researched this subject for a few years now so this thread is exactly what I'm looking for.I can only vape now and since I can't vape oil I can vape tinctures made with VG,so that's my next mission.

    Well done and good luck,I appreciate the work you are doing and thanks for posting.
     
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  8. Edgedamage

    Edgedamage Well-Known Member

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    81
    Whew that was really nice....Ok so did my standard for a nice buzz dose. And I have to say very good results, I am very pleased with the pressure cooker no smell no fuss. I have decarbed this strain before and the effects are changed into a more hazy foggy high, than what they where in the oven at 240f for 40min. Now I felt I got higher on the same amount from the pressure cooker, but the effects did not match the oven decarb. Now I am wondering if you can change the profile of the high with length of decarb time. Now for what's bugging me...if going over 45 mins for decarb we start to lose THC. Are we not doing that when we decarb then put the decarbed product back into the oven or cooker to infuse into butter/oil? I took the dose at 5pm it's 8:53pm and making this post is really hard to stay on track.
     
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  9. Mr.Newton

    Mr.Newton Member

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Kawartha Lakes
    Thanks and you're stoned,good on you,:D
     
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  10. Mr.Newton

    Mr.Newton Member

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Kawartha Lakes
    I am really curious to know if it's advantageous to vacuum seal the jars before doing the oven decarb,your thoughts?
     
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  11. Edgedamage

    Edgedamage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    81
    I would think no, because only the pressure cooker produced no smell. Every time I used the oven there was a slight weed smell. Only on cooling did I hear the snap lid seal. So I think in the oven the jars where letting pressure in the jar escape. And the pressure cooker was creating enough pressure to keep the jar lid always sealed.
     
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  12. Mr.Newton

    Mr.Newton Member

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Kawartha Lakes
    So you think that the vac seal wouldn't hold but this is where I'm wonder if the no air to expand would come into play.That's why I 'm curious.I will try it when I get all my ducks in a row.Thought I was done experimenting,guess not :leaf:
     
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  13. CVC4455

    CVC4455 Member

    Messages:
    37

    You actually can just mix cannabis and cooking oil like coconut oil, olive oil, MCT oil etc... And then decarb the bud in the oil. It makes a decent product but I think decarbing bud 1st then mixing in oil is better.

    But try it! If you mix bud and oil and put in the oven at 240 for 2.5 hours you get decarbed bud that's infused the oil. But if you strain the bud you will lose some potency so I usually leave it in
     
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  14. Edgedamage

    Edgedamage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    81
    I did a run of 45 mins in the pressure cooker, it's a lighter golden brown. And again no smell from the cooker. I think this might be my new standard for decarbing, just so easy.
     
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  15. CVC4455

    CVC4455 Member

    Messages:
    37
    Did you like the effects of the 45 or 60 minute better?
     
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  16. HarkW2000

    HarkW2000 Member

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    10
    Hey major kudos to OP for putting the work and sharing those results.

    One datapoint that may be of interest: FC user blackie did a partial teardown of an Ardent decarb appliance and measured its running temperature with a thermocouple; he found it decarbed at 115°C (more exactly, the thermostat cycled around 115°C, between 113°C and 118°C) with a warm-up and heated cycle of about an hour and 20 minutes, and an unpowered cooldown of another 15-20.

    This is interesting to me for a few reasons: It's substantially longer than the single most common suggestion I've heard, 240°F-for-40. It's that much more surprising because Ardent's reccomended decarb-then-infuse cycle is to do a full decarb, then put it in an container in oil and run the machine for another cycle. (Their claim is that the first part is loss free, and the second part loses ~10% THC depending on the choice of oils/butter. I'm curious if the loss in the second phase has anything to do with the combined ~2 hours under considerable heat, or if it's all the infusion process and choice of oil as their blogpost implies.)

    Anyway, because of the cost of Ardent's product and the number of people who have presumably done their own lab testing (one or two people in that thread mention doing so) I tend to think the "240°F-for-60m-80m"
    is probably either optimal, or close enough to optimal to get really good lab results, so it's what I'm shooting for with my own DIY efforts. If the pressure cooker is automatically set for 250°F, well, there's not much to do about that.
     
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  17. Edgedamage

    Edgedamage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    81
    I used a diffrent strain, but pleased with the results. That pressure cooker changes everything, no more worring if my cheap PID controller will set the house on fire.
     
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  18. uncanni

    uncanni Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    120
    Location:
    dirty south
    That is very interesting. I asked them last year what temp the Nova operated at, and I never got an answer. Guess they didn't want to tell me.

    Sometimes I wonder if it doesn't overdo the required time just a little bit. I've unplugged it early a couple of times.
     
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  19. HarkW2000

    HarkW2000 Member

    Messages:
    10
    I can see from their perspective why they wouldn't want to shout this information from the mountaintops. Similarly there's a lot of good and interesting stuff on their blog about decarb but it tends to highlight the disadvantages of oven decarb, and just says vaguely that you can do a bit better than their (15-30%) wastage for ovens and toaster ovens with close monitoring. I suspect probably with a toaster oven and a thermocouple you could get quite precise indeed, but again that's hardly what you'd put on a website for a decarb appliance. "You can get results like ours with really careful DIY."

    I wish I knew. I haven't read of anybody who specifically cut off the cooldown period and then sent the results for lab testing. In the absence of any other info I'm trying to replicate the exact curve in the post I linked.

    If that means wasting some effort and 20m each go round, that's not great, but more practical for me than sending away for tests.
     
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  20. uncanni

    uncanni Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    120
    Location:
    dirty south
    1. I don't know why the temp should be such a secret: let people try to replicate the conditions if they want to DIY!!!
    2. I do know this: the Nova makes bud perfect for tincture.
    3. And another conclusion I've arrived at: Vaping decarbed bud after 3 weeks' cure is nowhere near as good as vaping "raw" bud after 9 weeks' cure. I've been wondering for quite a while what are the differences between bud out of the Nova and cured bud--I got into the habit on a couple of previous grows of just decarbing all the rather than curing bud because it smelled so good. Now I'm doing traditional cure again, and I won't be decarbiing as much bud to vape in the future. Conclusion: the Nova doesn't replace time in a cool dark place, burping, etc.
     
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  21. HarkW2000

    HarkW2000 Member

    Messages:
    10
    I definitely think "people should know" and ideally if more people who have the equipment (wireless thermocouple etc) and the money or lab access could do the kind of tests blackie did in the Ardent thread and nail down whether that exact temperature curve (including warmup and cooldown and whether they impact test results) that would be good for everybody as consumers.

    The situation right now, though, is what's best for the folks making that appliance; lots of people with raw or cured flower who don't necessarily want to do wet decarb, or oven decarb with bad oven thermostats bouncing 20+ degrees around what the oven is set to, makes the best possible case for getting a machine that is more or less "consumer confirmed" to work. Also in Canada at least as of a few months ago lab testing was still an expensive hassle, so if you want to make precisely dosed edibles (as in, with approximately 10mg of THC or whatever) you kind of want 100% decarb so that you're close to being in line with the packaging's THC (or more accurately, THCA) percentage.

    I don't think they're an evil corporation, but I don't think it makes sense for them, as a business, to say "hey here's our research on the optimal temperature curve for a dry decarb." Besides saving some potential competitor some R&D costs it might also close the gap between DIY performance and the performance of their (moderately expensive) appliance.

    My guess is Edgedamage's setup (a toaster oven and a thermocouple) can probably virtually replicate the Ardent's performance, although probably with more babysitting of the process. Making do with either a conventional oven or an analogue oven thermometer (even a good one) is maybe not good enough to keep within a few degrees of 239°F. My own oven definitely doesn't keep that temperature well and the thermometer is very slow-reading, too slow to try to kludge oven temperature in real-time.

    At the moment (in Canada) the legal flower is already handled, although expensive. It would be nice to have the problem of uncured homegrown, but my apartment building is a no-grow zone. They really should have thought more about the rights of people in apartments when they were legalizing, but the whole process has been very path-of-least-effort on the government's part. Could be a lot worse, obviously.
     
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  22. uncanni

    uncanni Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    120
    Location:
    dirty south
    In the end, some of the differences may be quite minimal between DIY and Ardent Nova. I was hell-bent on preserving terpenes when I purchased mine a little over a year ago. It was an easy decision after I had done my research.

    Oh, wow, you can't grow in your apt? That's a bummer. Why on earth would they zone that way? I've never heard of that. You're absolutely correct: what happened to your rights?

    One of the great advantages of owning a house: all my walls are my own and I can do what I please inside my own house. So I continue to be an outlaw...
     
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  23. Edgedamage

    Edgedamage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    81
    So a little update, shortly after I posted on Firday about 15 mins later the edible really hit. And wow did it ever hit like a lead fist. I have done this strain before in my toaster oven, @ 45min in the pressure cooker it was way stronger. Than 40min in the oven. I now think the pressure cooker is my new no smell, great results device to use for decarb.
     
  24. HarkW2000

    HarkW2000 Member

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    10
    I don't want to complain too much about Canadian first world problems because straight legalization is big progress, but the whole thing has been very path-of-least-resistance on the government's part. (Some basic guidelines are federal, most of the detail is province-by-province, "state law" equivalent for US people.)

    The whole emphasis seems to have been on legalizing the big industry (which looks like a baby version of the tobacco or alcohol industries) that was waiting in the wings for the green light, and which had a lot of well-connected political lobbyists who used to be politicians, cops, etc. Any question not related to their big-production, big money concerns, like figuring out how non-property owners can grow at home is like an afterthought-to-an-afterthought. They're going to wait to do anything about processed cannabis products and edibles until later this year, probably so they won't be on the hook for the growing pains with edibles, the first rush of people taking too much and going to hospital, etc.

    It's possible that people with restrictive apartment landlords (or restrictive condo boards, which would amount to the same thing) could take them to court on a tenants-rights basis, but that's true of a lot of things apartment-dwellers get jerked around with: landlords have a lot more power in practice then they should because most people aren't going to take them to court, especially without any certainty of winning.

    Anyway: grand scheme of things the thing Canada has done wrong about legalization isn't delaying edibles or underthinking home-grow: the big thing is they still haven't moved on amnesties for people in jail because of cannabis. I didn't have high expectations for competence but the fact that they've still not address that shocks me.

    - - -

    Sorry for the long tangent in your thread, @Edgedamage . Great to hear how well things are going. Can you run the thermocouple in the toaster oven the whole time? I wonder if it would be worthwhile to try something like the Ardent temperature curve (20m warmup,1h at 240F, 20m unpowered cooldown) to see if that also gets something like 100% decarb. Obviously the pressure cooker is hard to beat for ease of use, but I assume you can't use your thermocouple/jar setup with it. I wonder if (as good as the results were!) if it's still on the short side duration-wise, depending on how many of the 45m are spent warming the air up in the jar. Maybe the water against the glass does that faster, I'm not great on thermodynamics.
     
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  25. Edgedamage

    Edgedamage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    81
    I am able to run the thremocouple in the oven the whole time. The pressure cooker only starts counting down when it's reached cooking temp. So in theory it has a warm-up. And the cool down is done when I remove the jar, and sit it on a cooling rack.
     
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