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Law of thermodynamics?.No GAS LAWS

Discussion in 'ABV' started by luchiano, May 9, 2014.

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  1. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    @nicelytoasted @Stu @pakalolo @vtac

    GAS LAWS
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_laws
    Kinetic theory
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_theory
    "The kinetic theory of gases describes a gas as a large number of small particles (atoms or molecules), all of which are in constant, random motion. The rapidly moving particles constantly collide with each other and with the walls of the container. Kinetic theory explains macroscopic properties of gases, such as pressure, temperature, viscosity, thermal conductivity, and volume, by considering their molecular composition and motion. The theory posits that gas pressure is due to the impacts, on the walls of a container, of molecules or atoms moving at different velocities.

    Kinetic theory defines temperature in its own way, not identical with the thermodynamic definition."

    When using something that causes back pressure such as a vaporizer that uses a stuffed chamber of herb, the temperature within the chamber will increase. This is how pressure cookers work in a sense. Steam that is used to fry food or crisp up food is used the same way. The more pressure added to an enclosed chamber that has an element to it like gas, the hotter the gas becomes. In fact the gas itself builds up the pressure so its a back and forth system.

    As it pertains to certain vaporizers, when you stuff the chamber the forced air from a pump will cause back pressure and eventually raise the temperature within the herb chamber and the herb itself. This a law of Gas which I was hinting at in another thread only going deeper and was told it made no sense. This is exactly what the maker (or representative) of the herbalaire says is how the herbalaire is made to work. For those who claim to want scientific backing here you go. Remember as pressure increase, the temperature increases and if the temperature increases, the pressure can increase as long as the space is enclosed.

    http://www.indiana.edu/~geog109/topics/10_Forces&Winds/GasPressWeb/PressGasLaws.html

    Here is a video demonstration of how the herbalaire works. He states it is from back pressure:
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
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  2. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    Bump

    This is very important knowledge to know so people will stop confusing thermodynamics with gas laws.
     
  3. meduser#420

    meduser#420 Touch it, Feel it.

    I believe it is called thermal equilibrium.
     
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  4. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    @meduser#420

    That is true when dealing with just the transfer of the hot air to the bud but, it goes deeper once you stuff the chamber so much that pressure builds up. Then it goes into gas laws.

    Thermal equilibrium:
    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/thereq.html
    "It is observed that a higher temperature object which is in contact with a lower temperature object will transfer heat to the lower temperature object. The objects will approach the same temperature, and in the absence of loss to other objects, they will then maintain a constant temperature. They are then said to be in thermal equilibrium. Thermal equilibrium is the subject of the Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics."
     
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  5. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    We have a rule:
    • No bumping. Please do not bump your threads to try and get attention. Be patient.
    You waited about three hours. Once again I'll forgive you the point, but you can't expect this to continue.

    Since @nicelytoasted has made his career out of air science, I'll defer to his response here. My only comment is that your understanding of the gas laws is on a par with your understanding of thermodynamics.
     
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  6. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Salutations Luchiano,

    Thank you for reminding us of this video, here's the episode i liked most:


    Really, there was a time when i might have wondered how many times i could have done this with another vaporizer, or even mine for that matter...

    :peace:
     
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  7. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    @pakalolo
    My mistake on the bump

    The maker(or representative) himself says it deals with back pressure and I know exactly how gas works. I even gave you the definition since when I explained it in a way that pertains to how we are using it with herb, I was told it makes no sense. Its very simple to me. I see where this is going but that is my scientific response to the other thread with scientific backing since laymen wording isn't good enough for some.

    I would love a @nicelytoasted response because if I'm wrong and he can prove it, I will happily admit it. I just want to know how to get the best use out of a vaporizer and knowing how things work on different levels is how I can get there.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  8. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    The First Law of Thermodynamics is ΔU = Q - W. The increase in internal energy of a closed system is equal to the difference of the heat supplied to the system and the work done by it.

    A vaporizer is not a closed system, so minor pressure variation within the chamber would be negligible in the first place IMO. However even if a vaporizer was a closed system, the amount of energy added (ΔU) to increase the pressure would be deducted from the amount of heat energy being added to the system (Q) which means that this energy used to pressurize the closed system (W - work done) is subtracted from the initial heat energy. So it's a zero sum game (some would say less than "zero sum" since it is impossible to transfer heat energy without loss - see entropy).

    Per wikipedia:
    Basically this means that you can't get more heat/energy out that you put in.

    Now, as for Gay-Lussac's law, the pressure of a gas of fixed mass and fixed volume is directly proportional to the gas's absolute temperature. This again applies to a closed system, but it does make a direct correlation between pressure and temperature.

    Here are a couple of interesting videos that explain this much better than I.




    :peace:
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  9. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    794
    @Stu

    Once AGAIN, the system becomes closed, or partially closed I in this case, once you pack the chamber with bud. I keep saying this but for some reason it keeps getting ignored or looked over. I never stated the air going in is getting hotter, I stated the temperature inside the chamber with the herb or better, the herb itself, is getting hotter. The law you're referring to is when there is nothing there, which makes sense. How will you get a higher temperature then you're putting in if no energy is being created?.

    Second, read what you wrote and use it in terms of what we're talking about. The gas mass and volume is directly proportional to the gas's absolute temperature. As it relates to what we are talking about, the amount of vapor we get is related to the temperature we choose on the vaporizer BUT, if the chamber is packed and the forced air is coming from under the herb, it will create backpressure and this will also create pressure within the chamber as the vapor is released and being that the chamber is so packed with herb, most of the vapor that is released will build up pressure and raise the temperature within the bowl. Add to the fact that the herb is surrounded by metal, it helps keep this imcreased temperature a little stable. Like I stated before, IN MY OPINION this is probably why the herbalaire only goes to 400f, if they set it higher you may catch fire to your herb from the built up pressure raising the temperature within the bowl. If you look at the second video you linked, the example even looks kind of like an herbalaire bowl, now imagine it packed with whole dense nugs and you can see how pressure can easily build up and raise the temperature of the herb.

    You also have to take into account the different substances that are released hold different amounts of energy, and that will add to the making of a certain amount of pressure, which in turn increase the temperature within the herb.

    BTW, since you believe what you put in is what you get out in all situations, why do you think a pressure cooker can give different temperatures based on steam and with the same amount of water?.

    Anyway, thanks for giving your opinion and why you feel this way in a scientific manner. I love discussions like this.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
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  10. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    There is no such thing as partially closed. In thermodynamics, a system is either isolated, open, or closed. Open means it can exchange energy and/or matter with it surroundings, and that is what happens in a vapourizer. If the system were closed then we wouldn't get any vapour.

    In terms of the gas laws, in order to build pressure the gas must be contained. Any pressure buildup cannot exceed the strength of the container. Cannabis, even when packed, cannot contain any pressure.
     
  11. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    794
    In this case it is partially closed because of the opening of the mouthpiece. What you're doing is using the knowledge in a perfect setting not real world. You will always have pressure build up in a situation that has restrictions. If you are stuffing one gram of nugs in a little hole, and forcing hot akr through it pressure will build up just not enough to raise the temperature to a super high temperature but enough to put the temperature over what you set it within the herb. The guy in the video even says you can fit 7 grams in the chamber so how are you telling me pressure won't build up?. In fact you know pressure is happening in the bowl because when he took out the herb it was smashed together into a hard piece. That is pressure effecting the herb. Again any type of restriction will create pressure just in various amounts depending on the amount of restriction being applied.

    BTW, the guy in the video I posted says it uses pressure to extract, which I can understand, yet I'm told that is not what is happening and the excuse for how the herbalaire works is from the little holes pulsating through the herb. What? A few pulses of air is going to extract everything at 400f?. But I'm talking crazy about pressure being used. Hahahaha.

    May I ask you and others if they can answer, how do you think the herbalaire works?


    Since no one believes its from pressure, what do you think since I see you have a creative mind with your mister project?

    Also, do you think the guy in the video has no clue what he's talking about being that he claims pressure is how it works and comparing it to an espresso maker?

    Lastly, how do you think the herb that he shot out became so dense and hard, as well as near black, if no pressure was created?. If you watch closely the herb was bright green and torn in pieces when he put it into the herbalaire chamber. Shouldnt the herb come out flaky or at least in pieces not one solid lump if no pressure was created as some believe?.

    I would love to hear your answers, as well as others who may not agree that pressure is doing its job to make the herbalaire what it is. Thank You.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2014
  12. stickstones

    stickstones Wasted Staff Member

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    I don't think most Vaporizers can build up enough pressure to raise the temp.

    I could see the bowl in the video coming out as a green puck after being packed if it were sticky enough.
     
  13. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    794
    I agree, most cant but we are reffering to the herbalaire.

    So you think he was wrong when he said it uses backpressure. Keep in mind he states he's a physicist and it was made by 4 scientists. That was his main selling point, not pulsating air as some claim.

    If it were sticky enough it would be coming out in chunks not one hard piece. See for yourself. Get some sticky herb compact it in your ion. First you won't probably see that much vapor because I dont think the ion is made to handle pressure like that but second when you dump it it will be stuck together but not one hard puck. Try it out and see. Watch the video and notice the color is much darker then the herb in the bag, and its hard.
     
  14. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Salutations Luchiano,

    Hummm... Lets see if we can interpret this accurately...


    If you're asking me i must confess that i actually recall making sure to have my sound level turned completely off before i started watching some segments of the mentioned document. Oh well, i guess this should tell about my own priorities: cannabic dryness, electric slowliness, eventless ritual, time-diluted perceptions... It all was more trouble than i called for in the end; although mine proved to be a great vaporism initiator i discovered i couldn't be satisfied even with a personalized 2.1 version! Anyway it wasn't for a lack of effort (does Fog Conditioning ring a bell?), so perhaps that video is a good base for some entertaining read - and good luck with it! - but that's some tense climate i sense around here, euh...

    I'm curious to see who won't choose to say no thanks in any case!!

    ...

    Also: please join verbose explicit pictures, animations, etc!...

    :peace:
     
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  15. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    794
    @Egzoset I understand. Thanks for replying.

    I think I'm going to bow out since I'm getting nowhere but first, I'm going to email herbalaire and ask them is pressure used by the vaporizer to work or is pulses of air like some claim on here. If they say it is pressure like the video guy does, I don't know how they would take it if I tell them some say that is impossible. I know the maker of Aromed got mad when it was done to him, as some said how it works is impossible but, when he explained it to me and I thought it out it made perfect sense. You just had to have a creative mind to bring the science into real world action, which the Aromed does.

    Anyway, look out for the reply from them if you want to hear what they say.

    Here's another video showing how hard the herb comes out after being in the chamber. It is tobacco he is using this time and tobacco isn't necessarily sticky. What he was putting in there didn't look sticky. Its at 3:26. Also notice when he cracks open the solid block of tobacco steam is coming out of it(look at the black computer in the backgroud to see white wisps of vapor) which is exactly what is state is happening, steam in the herb is building up pressure. I might be wrong, I can admit it. That's how you better yourself. You fail and get back up knowing better for the future.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
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  16. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    No one has denied that backpressure plays a part in the way the HA works. What has been said repeatedly to you is that the pressures involved are not of a magnitude sufficient to cause the temperature increase that you claim.
     
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  17. stickstones

    stickstones Wasted Staff Member

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    I thought we were talking about gas laws in general here.

    I never said that. I chose my words carefully so you wouldn't come to this errant conclusion. I'm starting to see how you get involved in misinterpretations.

    That's just simply not always true. You are generalizing. I've got some weed that was vacuum packed for a short time and a month after being opened up it is still hard as a rock. It's super dense and hard to grind. I've got rock hard pucks of it much bigger than the puck he pulled out of his herbalaire.

    Right now I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. If you are trying to prove that the Herbalaire uses pressure to make an ejectable puck, then congratulations...mission accomplished. But I can get this out of my Vapolution2 without any more pressure than what a dimple in the air path creates. The Vapolution2 also penetrates the herb so that it is completely spent with only one large air intake hole instead of eighteen little jets. If you are trying to say that this increase in pressure increases the temp, then I don't yet agree with you. For starters, the maker never says this in the videos posted here (I'f I'm wrong on this, please point out the time marker and accept my apologies in advance). Also, I don't think he would want this as it would make the temp setting unpredictable without complex algorithms and multiple sensor points (I don't think the Herbalaire has any of these, but I could be wrong). What you have most definitely done is make me want an Herbalaire!
     
  18. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Salutations Luchiano,

    And there's more: often enough "thermodynamics" has been a word which poped up when interest for atypical topics was expressed; for example about Magnetic Induction, Inlet Moisturisation, etc... While at the same time we seem to constantly starve for thermographic analysis graphics or anything an average reader can grasp intuitively, with some explaining if required. In any case i wanted to share your opinion that the HA pump is likely to induce vibrations in the oven that are possibly capable of shaking the particles, but we'd all love to watch it happen in video, of course!... Along with thermodynamic theories, as an educative option.

    :peace:
     
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  19. rayski

    rayski Well-Known Member

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    Why the talk about pressure? The guy in the video said back pressure. From wikipedia: "Because it is really resistance, the term back pressure is misleading as the pressure remains and causes flow in the same direction, but the flow is reduced due to resistance." So, why the assumption that pressure is going up or down. If he knows what he's talking about scientifically, then the flow might be more important than the pressure.
     
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  20. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    794
    This was a continuation of the last thread where all this started dealing with the herbalaire. That's why I kept mentioning it in my o.p., in other posts throughtout the thread, and why I posted a video about the herbalaire. I thought I made that clear, I guess not.

    2-I never stated you made any claim about the guy, I was simply asking you a question since you stated you didn't think it can build up enough pressure or in your word "most vaporizers". I think this is the problem, MY words are taking out of context. Again I was simply asking you a question based on your answer, no more then that.

    3-You are talking about a vacuum packed herby pucket, that is not part of the discussion. We are dealing with
    hot air expelling vapor. There is a difference. I see my words are being taken out of context. I try to keep it
    simple'vit it seems not to be working.

    @rayski
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUtURXeWHik
    "This is a definition I just found from a YouTube video from a city called surrey:
    Backpressure is any condition where the pressure in a system becomes greater than the supply pressure feeding the system. It's caused when a potable system is connected to a non-potable system that is operating at a higher pressure. Non-potable substances may be forced into the drinking water supply. "

    Also, if you read a post I did a few up, that is what I stated. That there will be resistance from the block of airflow if you pack the chamber densely and this will create pressure within the bowl as vapor is released. I never posted anything about up or down flows.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  21. RUDE BOY

    RUDE BOY Space is the Place

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    2,725
    luchiano I could pack buds in the HA crank it up to 400 set one of my HA mouthpieces on ( I have one that never makes a seal, it's always wobbly loose) take very few hits and then 1/2 hour later dump the crucible.
    The bud will always be in a solid 'puck', don't believe it's caused by 'pressure' because the vapor/air is free flowing out of the mouthpiece.

    You can't really have significant back pressure and a airflow at the same time, Sorry.
     
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  22. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    794
    @RUDE BOY

    I never stated the back pressure or resistance is significant, I stated the resistance(back pressure) will cause pressure to build up in the bowl as vapor is released. Obviously airflow is happening if vapor is released but I stated the packed chamber will cause all the vapor that is released to build up pressure and therefore make the herb hot.
     
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  23. stickstones

    stickstones Wasted Staff Member

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    8,202
    If you use a question mark instead of a period it will change your statement to a question. You are now changing the context of your own words, not me.

    My point about the puck was that I can create a solid puck of green weed by pressing it together just like he is doing in his videos. I'm not saying he is using sticky material, just that there a few more variables going on here than just pressure. If I took my sticky weed and crammed it into the Herbalaire like he is doing it would eject out as a solid green puck.

    Now, I'm not interested in getting into a pissing match about little details like sticky weed, because the reality is neither one of us knows for sure what is going on here. I am all about debating possibilities as long as we are clear that neither one of us knows the truth. But we're gonna have to be calm and use correct punctuation.

    If vapor is being released then pressure is dropping, and therefore temperature. I still don't think the pressure build up is significant enough to change the temp. Again, if this was the case then the Herbalaire would lose control of its temperature accuracy.
     
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  24. RUDE BOY

    RUDE BOY Space is the Place

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    from what I understand there will always be expansion of the unground bud when the compounds contained within boil off, and the restriction of that expansion when bud presses against the chamber walls will create a type of pressure. I just don't see how it will raise the temp during the boiling process above the heater temp that caused the reaction in the first place.


    I do understand the need to figure out how the HerbalAire does what it does. The avb looks and feels so different from any other vaporizer i've used yet. And like you I cannot understand how it can still extract goodness out of bud that was vaped and could give no more at a higher temp in another vape.
    It's a pretty amazing machine.
     
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  25. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    794
    @stickstones
    My bad. I looked at the post I did and see I didn't put a question mark. I can see why you took it that way. I'm on a mobile and not a desktop, so there will be a lot of errors because I hate typing on this shit. If you notice I'm comstantly editing. Again, my fault.

    Yeah, on the sticky herb but he also did it with tobacco in the last video I posted. If moisture is leaving the herb, I can't see how it will still be hard puck. It should be grainy and hard to hold together like hash that loses moisture or even raw bud. You need a lot pressure to keep them together once moisture leaves them. This makes me think the herb may not be spent and some is left in the herb if it is true not enough pressure is produced to have the pucks come together.

    Yeah, the pressure will drop if the chamber isn't compacted like it is. The reason I state it gets higher is because once vapor is released and the chamber is densely packed, the vapor will build up some before all of it is released and when pressure gets higher, the temperature does. Now, i don't mean 100f higher but a few degrees from what its set at. I think the reason a puck is made is because as the pressure drops from the vapor leaving, it will create a small vacuum within the herb from the lowered pressure and bring the herb together into a hard puck. The temperature accuracy might be like most vaporizers, measured at the heater not the chamber.

    @RUDE BOY
    Finally, someone sees what I'm trying to say with the pressure. Even if youndont agree with the temperature change, most of the argument is about the pressure not being there. The reason I think the temperature changes a little is because if the incoming air is 400f, it will release a lot of vapor at once. This will cause the pressure to build up due to the dense chamber and as the molecules become pressurized, they move faster, and this creates heat. Once you add that heat with the incoming air, this is is why I think it may raise a little.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
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