Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by duh, May 30, 2009.
So no conclusion has been reached yet.
Like I've implied before, no conclusion will be reached. We've already discussed this in-depth. It's not a black and white issue. It all depends on how much of a risk any person is willing to take, regardless how small that risk may be.
Have you done any research besides this forum (or any forum)?
I know a chemist and am going to get his opinion soon, I hope, and I will try to get him to cite scientific articles. Don't hold your breath, it may take a few weeks, but at least I am making an effort to get one scientific opinion on the subject. And I have no vested interest in brass being good or bad. I just want to know the answer, if there is one.
Good idea, Moe.
I'd ask a chemist too, if I knew one.
I used to be a chemist before I changed careers. And I use a Myrtlezap every day. Lead has such a low vapour pressure I am not concerned about any minute amounts that might escape from the small amount of brass in the Zap. Remember, everyone is exposed to small amounts of lead daily from the environment. There is still a lot of brass plumbing out there that contains lead. Anyone concerned about lead exposure could check with their doctor to get a blood test for lead. Home test kits for lead in saliva are also available on the net.
If you are concerned about lead in brass, buy a PD. Then you can worry about chromium in stainless steel. Or buy a GONG vaporizer like the Aromed or Herborizer. Then you can still worry about liver damage from THC. Life is a risk, be happy. My 2 cents.
^ Well said.
my past life regressionist is advising me to include brass in my daily supplement regimen, so who knows?
Sure there's risk in everything but we should minimize it when we can easily do so. Part of that is finding out the truth about brass and vapor. Knowledge is power.
I'd like to re-open this thread as I've been asked about this topic more than a few times. I realize that short of devising tests and then paying for lab time (like Dan from Vaporgenie did) we are unlikely to come to any real conclusions, however, this forum is all about an open dialogue and exchange of information and I feel this is something worth discussing. I hope we can get some intelligent and meaningful discussion going among knowledgeable individuals.
This will be a civil discussion. If you can't post without breaking our be nice rules then do not post here. Infractions will be issued without warning. Please also do not post if you have nothing more to add than "I think it's safe" or "I think it's unsafe".
A short refresher: What's the big deal with brass?
Most of the previous discussion has been regarding the Aromazap and Myrtlezap, both of which use brass for the heat exchanger/internals and bowl. Rick has said the brass he uses does contain a small amount of lead though no specifics have been given as far as I know. Getting that information would be a good start.
There is some disagreement on whether or not this is a problem.
On the 'Not a problem' side, the opinion is that no lead should be released at the temperatures the vaporizer operates at (lead has a melting point of 327.46C and a boiling point of 1749C, the brass in the vaporizer sits at around 190C).
On the other side, the opinion is that considering the dangers of lead, it should be avoided, period, especially in a heated breathing apparatus, Concerns have been raised regarding the tight fit between the bowl and heat exchanger; surface abrasion occurs during insertion/removal and thus, any lead on the surface could be scraped free and end up in the air stream as particulate.
Others feel that while lead exposure may be occurring, it is minute enough as not to be of concern in the grand scheme of things.
So, please, let's keep this civil and informative.
And as a side note, any discussion of material safety belongs in the general section and NOT directly in the related model thread(s).
Funny. I looked at this thread and the first thing that came to mind was, "Fuck, who in the hell opened up this can of worms again....?" lol.
To repeat what I said in post #62 above. From my point of view, I don't think that the issue is if there is a level of risk regarding vaporizing out of something made of brass. I think we can all pretty much agree that there is "some" level of risk, no? So it really all depends on an individuals feeling of how much of a risk is one willing to take versus the reward, or visa versa. The answer to that will always be all over the place. It's not a right or wrong, just different.
Short of detailed lab tests on the vape and how those results would affect a user base of say, 100,000, it's impossible to validate, or invalidate the dangers. So lacking that info, were back to what I said above.
Fuck, I'm kinda vaked now. Gotta reread this in the 'mornin. (here's hoping it made a little sense :/)
Add me to the "not a problem" side.
Remember, a lot of us grew up in a world where lead was in the paint on the walls and toys and many other things we had direct contact with on a daily basis. Hell, we had Jarts and Clacker Balls and many other dangerous toys too. Then, when we got older we learned a whole lot more dangerous behavior that we carried into adulthood.
Most of us survived quite nicely. As I approach the 50-year mark, I find it amazing that I made it this long. Granted, I am afflicted with Rheumatoid Arthritis, but no other major health issues that I am aware of at this point.:/
It would not surprise me if scientists discover that something like aspartame or the ozone layer or another common substance or even vaping through hot water is deleterious too.
My "opinion" follows.. .. Being a more health conscious person in my old(er) age, I try to limit my intake of unhealthy foods.. chemicals in foods, sodas full of sugar, (oops, drinking one now.. so I'm not totally there).. fast food, etc. I find a large portion of the vaporizing crowd are either patients with health issues they are trying to treat or simply people looking for a healthier way to consume a harmless, enjoyable and therapeutic substance . I'm sure I've smoked through some things containing lead in my life, been exposed to lead based paint (probably ate some as a kid.. pealing off the baseboards.. ) With the age of the internet and the ability to instantly purchase the product I want, while having the ability to choose from many... I don't know why I would choose a product that "may only contain a LITTLE BIT" of a known poisonous substance.. or contains some lead "but it's PROBABLY OK" when there are readily available choices that have proven safe materials. To me there is simply no question. There are so many choices where this is not even a question, that in my mind it would simply be ridiculous to look at the huge range of options in every category of vape and then choose one that has known toxic substances, when one of my primary reasons for vaping is to live healthier and avoid toxins. Why even toy with something that is "probably fine" according to some, when choices exist.. and we know almost identical choices exist for the questionable items (including both smoking pipes and vaporizers). The young and healthy think they are invincible.. I know.. I was one of them.. most of us were. When you get into your middle ages.. retirement years.. and older.. you realize that YOU ARE MOSTLY IN THE CONDITION YOU ARE IN BECAUSE OF THE SMALL CHOICES YOU MADE.. and you can never go back and redo those years. Food for thought.
I avoid even the smallest possibility of encountering something as lead. Heavy Metal Exposure is something that happens over the course of years. Each little tiny amount only adds to the amount that is in your blood. So something that may not be a problem now, can be a major problem decades from now. If there is a risk of lead, even it is a very tiny amount, it still can lead to Heavy Metal Toxicity over time depending on how often you are receiving that tiny amount.
Thing is, we are also encountering lead in unknown forms in our day to day activities. Can't regulate the unknown. So I would rather regulate what is known to reduce my amount of intake of lead. I've already know there are some lead exposures that I cannot stop because I am unaware of them. Which is why I would rather stop known sources. Don't want to intentionally increase my levels.
Thank you, O Objective moderator, for bringing this issue up again. Seems I read, many times, this issue has been discussed again and again with the same conclusions again and again. Even the moderators have made that point. Now a moderator brings it up again.
Thank you VTAC. Your objectiveness in the area of the "wood block vapes" continues unabated.
AZ/MZ is safe to use, period.
Tight fit? surface abrasion? Keep on digging. Gotta find something wrong with that MZ, don't you.
This is especially interesting considering it is directed at the competitor of a unit you constantly praise in various ways.
Thanks for moderating.
Mod note: From the rules page- "Public discussions of staff decisions are not permitted on the site. If you have any concerns or queries relating to a staff decision please take it up in private with a staff member."
..simply eliminating the brass with obviously readily available parts would take you out of this argument completely Rick! No one mentioned you since this thread was reopened.. and being on a respected vaporizer site, this information might be seen by future vape makers and influence their decision on materials they might use in their vape, which is good for us all.
My product specifically was mentioned by the mod when he re-opened this thread.
I stay with brass, even though construction is more time consuming than my competitors heatport because brass is safe with low heat levels and always has been.
Yea, lets prove a negative. Good move.
Yeah, I'm in wthanna's and Devo's camp on this.
Until we can get definitive lab tests, under use, we'll never really know the extent of the risk in using brass in a vaporizer of this type, so the answer for me would be, why take the risk at all?
And as wthanna and Devo said, this kind of exposure is cumulative, so yeah, we expose ourselves to probably worse shit when we just breath in the air that we take in every day, but why add anything to that if it can be avoided regardless how small the exposure may be.
So for me, the rewards just doesn't outweigh the risk. If I can use a vape that doesn't have lead used in it's construction, why should I use one that does?
Rick states that the brass that he uses in his vapes is totally safe at the temp levels it operates in and that we shouldn't be concerned with any brass dust particles that may work loose over time. In all due respect, until a Zap is measured in use in a lab, his statements, may be true, but then again, they may not be true. So for me, the question is, why take the risk when there are lead free alternatives.
Having said that, for those that would chose the Zap because of it's aesthetics and because it can be delivered right away, and are willing to take that risk, I totally understand and respect their decision, for their risk/reward ratio is just different than mine. Not a right or wrong here...........just different.
I really don't think that the outcome of this debate is going to change from what it was when it was first brought up. The camp will continue to be divided on this issue as we all have different levels of risks that we are willing to take.
But I do think that it is folly to think that there is absolutely no risk at all.
I have not seen any evidence to say it is unsafe in its use. Given that brass is used in some medical breathing equipment and deep sea gear I feel this indicative that is a non issue. I also believe if it was such the issue that some are concerned about that their would be larger controls on the use of brass for such uses.
Too each their own and I respect that.
Just over a month ago you nearly kicked people off the board (I wasn't one of them) for even bringing up the subject. You wrote, and I quote:
"For future reference, any vape with a thread in the Vaporizer Discussion forum will be considered, for purposes of discussion in this forum, to be safe to use. All discussions of vape design or materials used, as far as safety or material x being better than y, will be limited to the General Vaporization section, and specific models will be not be mentioned.
We have an expanded set of rules that everyone needs to read. The kind of forum we're going to have should be evident from reading these rules. Following what was once our one and only rule- Be Nice -along with common sense, will keep most any member out of trouble. Ignoring this one will get a member no breaks and on the fast track to a permanent ban."
I guess I'm not allowed to question a Mod, so I won't, but I do have my questions.
Moe, it's obvious that he just rethought his stance on this. It's not like any of our thoughts and opinions are cast in concrete and can't change over time.
But when it is a question of board policy it shouldnt be something that changes.
Since when can't policies be changed? Since when is it that policies shouldn't be changed? Hell, policies are changing all time in just about everything. You may find that a policy that you once had just isn't working anymore, or that the policy is not aligned with a possible new way of thinking about how something should work, or not work.
Processed Chocolate Contains Dangerous Lead Concentrations, Study Says
A new study, in Environmental Health Perspectives, reveals that chocolate can be contaminated with very high quantities of lead.
What's interesting is that cocoa beans tested had an average lead concentration of < 0.5 ng/g, "one of the lowest reported values for a natural food," the study points out. But, by contrast, "lead concentrations of manufactured cocoa and chocolate products were as high as 230 and 70 ng/g."
Damn, I guess I better quit vaporizing those cocoa beans in my Zap then...
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