Is Brass Safe?

[vtac]

Thank you, nicelytoasted, for the informative post! Any ballpark on how much it would cost to have such a test done?

The reality is, vape makers are not going to run lab tests on their vapes any time soon. It's up to us to do our own homework. This thread is an attempt at doing so. It's gotten ugly more than once but we have made some progress and know more now than when we started out.

We now know that Myrtlezaps use, in the heated portion and air path, some 260 brass which contains ~0.07% lead (apparently considered lead-free), and also some brass of unknown composition which contains enough lead to test positive when a lead surface test is used. We now know that it only takes about 0.0006g of inhaled lead to raise the blood lead level to 10 micrograms per deciliter which is considered a cause for concern by international health agencies. We also now know that Tom's middle name is Clyde.

I know that folks who own MZs may find this discussion offensive because it calls into question a product they use and enjoy. While I understand the sentiment, I find it offensive to see personal attacks and calls for a closure of this discussion based purely on that fact. This is not "Us vs Them". I will continue to keep it clean and would ask that you do the same. If you don't like this discussion feel free to not read this thread.

Like it or not, lead is a dangerous substance. When a product from China is discovered to contain lead it gets pulled off the market, accompanied by a lot of publicity. Many people don't seem to have a problem assuming any vaporizer made in China is unsafe. I have seen the same posters who are defending the MZ's lead content warn others about "dangerous" Chinese vaporizers. What gives?

If a no-name Chinese vaporizer was found to have lead in the air path I really can't see anyone defending it, let alone attacking those discussing the issue. If an asthma inhaler was found to have lead inside it I don't imagine anyone would be saying "well it's safe under the operating temperatures". Even if it was theoretically safe under typical usage conditions, the risk would be still be great enough for it to be pulled.

Rick, you keep implying that I'm pushing some big agenda, that I'm playing sides, and that I'm out of line here. Since you've called me out multiple times I will respond. My agenda is to facilitate discussion and information regarding vaporizers. If any other vape was suspected to have lead in the air path I would be involved in the discussion the same as I am here. I have no vendetta against you, in fact, I respect you in more ways than one.

I do think you are out of line for questioning my integrity. Before this discussion you had no idea how much lead your product contained. To assume it was a complete non-issue because your friends told you so is questionable in my eyes, especially considering the number of people who breathe through your product on a daily basis. You say that you're a risk taker. Drilling and machining the leaded brass is proven to produce a very serious risk. To me, someone who doesn't care much about his own health is unlikely to be concerned with mine.

 

[Rick]

OK, as of today Rick says everything in the vapor path of the AZ/MZ is "lead free" according to RoHS standards or however it is correctly stated. Well, not everything. There is a dab of Myrtlewood, not RoHS but lead free, that the air whisks by. But the rest has the letters now. I changed my heatsink design and am testing it tonight.
More tomorrow on my thread when I am a bit fresher.
AZ/MZ is now just as safe as always but has the letters to go with it.

VTAC, I have to read the rest of this thread from my last post before I respond thoroughly. I certainly do want to thank you for bringing this up again, contrary to my earlier responses. If you will follow the timing, you will note I respond to doors Tom opens, perhaps more than I should. I would love to not mention anything related to personal subjects if the same was done to me. Maybe now we can get on with things.
Still brass. All RoHS brass.
Edit again for:
Ok, read everything since my last post. Thanks for all the testing ideas. I will send you a Zap nicelytoasted if it will help prove anything one way or another without a bunch of hassle.
Only other thing I want to say is I still have not heard an answer to my past simple question. Lot about lead for sure.

 

[Howie Feltersnatch]

Kudos, Rick!

 

[B.]

Hippie-isn't it better to know?

The negative health effects of shitty fast food are well known and well documented. They are forced to display nutritional information. The info is out there.

Sugar is important in the history of the U.S., and now high fructose corn syrup is a big part of that history, and there's lots of info about it and its insidious nature out there.Just because they peddle poison doesn't mean we should.

Car manufacturers go through incredibly rigorous testing, imposed internally and externally, to ensure the vehicles they produce are safe. Highways have countless hours put into engineering their safety and educating users of potential dangers. Highway driving, and how to make it safer, is constantly being studied, and new measures put in place to protect its users.

The information we want - the level of lead, chromium, or whatever, that can be inhaled when vaping is not out there.

Yes, I can read the forums here, and research the nature of lead, and how stable it is or isn't in brass, and at what temps lead begins to be released, but it sure would be nice to hear that in a lab it was proven conclusively that there is no trace of lead to be inhaled when I hit my MZ. And yes, even if all you can give me is your assurance that the BT doesn't produce anything harmful that I could inhale, I will still get one because I believe you're right( and because its so cool), but it would still be great to have irrefutable evidence.

As far as your last comment in that post...really? You are not responsible for the ambient atmosphere in my apt. You are responsible for what you put in the vape you sell.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the lead locked up in the brass, and won't be coming out under the conditions we use the vape? So yes, a test strip will test positive for lead on the surface. But just because the lead is present in the brass does not prove that lead is inhaled when the vape is used. Here's my very crude analogy. There's a full tank of gas in my car, and it would be bad for me if there was a 15 gallon bucket of gas on the passenger seat next me and I inhaled those fumes. But the gas is in the tank, and no fumes are going to get to me in the car under the conditions I use the car. Like I said, very crude analogy.

Nicelytoasted-you seem to know what you're talking about, so I'll ask you this : If lead were being inhaled, would any lead stick to the inside of the white part of the stem? This may be an interesting place to use a test strip.

And, for the record, the wait list was the single determining factor when I made my log vape purchase. Otherwise...total coin toss.

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the lead locked up in the brass, and won't be coming out under the conditions we use the vape? So yes, a test strip will test positive for lead on the surface. But just because the lead is present in the brass does not prove that lead is inhaled when the vape is used. Here's my very crude analogy. There's a full tank of gas in my car, and it would be bad for me if there was a 15 gallon bucket of gas on the passenger seat next me and I inhaled those fumes. But the gas is in the tank, and no fumes are going to get to me in the car under the conditions I use the car. Like I said, very crude analogy.

And, for the record, the wait list was the single determining factor when I made my log vape purchase. Otherwise...total coin toss.

Rick wrote and asked: "My simple question to you is on topic and completely relevant to the discussion in this thread. I have not heard you answer it yet. Yes lead is relevant. Tell us how it gets out of the brass alloy to a human."

B. wrote "Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the lead locked up in the brass, and won't be coming out under the conditions we use the vape?"

I too am wondering this, because this is the crux of the matter. We already knew it was a brass alloy and that a brass alloy has some lead in it. So Tom "proved" something that was already known, no?

But did I miss the part where someone proved that the vapor picks up lead and goes into one's lungs?

 

[B.]

As far as I can tell, from when I first started reading up on this debate 6 months ago, whether the lead is inhaled or not is the million dollar question.

It is either safe or unsafe, right? Is there a middle here?

Is this the simple question you refer to?

 

[lwien]

Otherwise...total coin toss.

But why? I guess if you were totally convinced, without any shadow of a doubt, that brass that contains lead is totally safe, then yes, I understand why it would be a coin toss, but if, even if there is a very slim possibility that there may be some risk here, why would it be a total coin toss? Why take a gamble if a gamble doesn't need to be taken.

Forget about the MZ vs PD debate. Why would you take any vape that uses brass in it's construction if you can get a vape that doesn't have brass used in it's construction?

I'm just trying to understand the logic here.

 

[obelisk]

B, the test Tom used detects leachable lead. There is a difference between that and lead being generally mixed into the alloy for machinability.

and vtac, yes, you are right, i am offended by this thread. but not because I own an mz.

I'm gonna go enjoy the day.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

the thing that's starting to yank my chain is this ill conceived search for "the answer". imho life is far more nuanced than that.

yes, if it is discovered that my child's toy is part of China's hazardous waste disposal system, then that fact should be exposed and the product (and company (and country)) squashed.

i tried to raise an issue about the hazards of using plastic in a thread titled "spallation", but that has quickly died. How about ALSO requiring vape manufacturers do a full round of testing of all the different "food" grade or "medical" grade plastic that might be grabbed up at Lowes or Home Depot to add to our precision inhalation devices. Not meaning to hijack this brass thread of course, but to address the testing requirement.

Perhaps as vape manufacturers begin flooding the market as cannabis is legalized, a distinguishing factor will be the certifications by testing agencies, such as UL for electrical stuff.

i have yet to see anything more than a handwave when Storz & Bickel is questioned about their aluminum block heatsink.

 

[DevoTheStrange]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the lead locked up in the brass, and won't be coming out under the conditions we use the vape? So yes, a test strip will test positive for lead on the surface. But just because the lead is present in the brass does not prove that lead is inhaled when the vape is used. Here's my very crude analogy. There's a full tank of gas in my car, and it would be bad for me if there was a 15 gallon bucket of gas on the passenger seat next me and I inhaled those fumes. But the gas is in the tank, and no fumes are going to get to me in the car under the conditions I use the car. Like I said, very crude analogy.

Those tests look for leachable lead, which means that the lead is not locked in. It can be leached through physical contact, which is how the test works... by rubbing it, some of the lead comes out and turns the test whatever color it needs for a positive.
If the lead were locked in, it would not be leachable and would not be a concern. The fact that is leachable means that under certain conditions will cause lead to come out when something is in contact with the metal.
However... we don't know if physical contact with moving air is enough friction to cause it to leach out. . . thats is an unknown that none of us seem to be able to figure out... is the air enough to leach lead out?

 

[Hippie Dickie]

What does the term Leachable Lead mean?

Leachable Lead is used to describe the ability of lead to come off of a finished surface such as in ceramic glaze. In the case of ceramics, lead can come off into food that is in contact of the glaze. It is one of the major ways of lead contamination.

 

[DevoTheStrange]

the thing that's starting to yank my chain is this ill conceived search for "the answer". imho life is far more nuanced than that.

yes, if it is discovered that my child's toy is part of China's hazardous waste disposal system, then that fact should be exposed and the product (and company (and country)) squashed.

i tried to raise an issue about the hazards of using plastic in a thread titled "spallation", but that has quickly died. How about ALSO requiring vape manufacturers do a full round of testing of all the different "food" grade or "medical" grade plastic that might be grabbed up at Lowes or Home Depot to add to our precision inhalation devices. Not meaning to hijack this brass thread of course, but to address the testing requirement.

Perhaps as vape manufacturers begin flooding the market as cannabis is legalized, a distinguishing factor will be the certifications by testing agencies, such as UL for electrical stuff.

i have yet to see anything more than a handwave when Storz & Bickel is questioned about their aluminum block heatsink.

I found your links on spallation to be informative, and for me at least, I find it just as useful as the lead issue.

and concerning brass.... I cannot find anything at all concerning brass and air contact... although I did find out the brass used in scuba gear is subject to extreme cold from both the water, and the gas passing through it.

 

[Samsquanch]

Hippie Dickie - i totally agree , weather this thread seams offensive or inappropriate , we as consumers are entitled to know what is in what we are purchasing . brass compounds have been beat to death here , the real question is - are we breathing leached lead ?

 

[DevoTheStrange]

from my understanding from what I read so far while looking through web pages.... lead exposure from leaded metal happens in two ways... Direct contact with the metal, ceramic, or plastic item, it has to be physical contact.... some form or abrasion through friction or exposure to a solvent has to occur, this would create lead dust. or it has to be heated above 500 degrees. So it is either dust or fumes.
All inhalation data I am finding is both for dust particles, and fumes.
so if I read it correctly.... brass with lead in it will not be an issue if the temps do not reach above 500f, and nothing is allowed to touch the brass so that there is no surface abrasion.

now dust might be made when the heat exchange is inserted into the zap, but should be able to be sucked out of the unit with a shop vac if any is created before the product even gets sent out to the user.

even though there is lead, I think once in place the metal does not become an issue as long as it is not physically touched.

 

[B.]

Forget about the MZ vs PD debate. Why would you take any vape that uses brass in it's construction if you can get a vape that doesn't have brass used in it's construction?

I'm just trying to understand the logic here.

Brass and stainless steel both have dangerous compounds in them. We don't know if the MZ is releasing dangerous levels of lead, and we don't know if the PD is releasing dangerous levels of chromium.

If i were a gambling man, I'd wager that both vapes are safe. Only time will tell.

I don't find this thread offensive in any way. But maybe it's because I love a good argument. I hope my zeal hasn't offended anyone.

 

[DevoTheStrange]

one thing i can say about this thread, I now know a lot more about brass than I ever did before.

 

[mnmlh]

If there is lead powder in the now recently declared "old" design MZ/AZ (see the official thread post #1623), then those test strips should show some positive registering of lead when pressed against the heat port screen and possibly by rolling the test strip up and inserting it into the stem and see if some residue shows up positive. Resin is sticky, and would collect the dust. Another option would be to scrape the resin and press it out on a surface, or something that increases the contact patch before testing. Others more proficient in the art of oils may be able to help guide the creation of a concentrate liquid that would still include the dust. Then it could be applied to the strip with a dropper, or something to that effect. It would be wise to go over the top here, so as to put this issue to rest once and for all even though the new design is RoHS compliant.

 

[Purple-Days]

I see that Rick is going with an all RoHS brass setup from here on. I think this is good news and proves that knowledge is power. Congratulations on the new move Rick.

 

[Beezleb]

When they test cars for inspections dont they test for lead? I know nothing about cars but I wonder if this direction of thought could be of interest in potential testing.

Thanks Tom for correcting me on the ROHS, I was under the belief it was ROHS compliant brass. I also applaud Rick's new design and hope it does much to address the issue.

 

[Purple-Days]

Beez, that's a great thought. But I think the Lead and Un-Leaded issues are mostly resolved by nozzle diameter. This is speculation and opinion, so step in all experts. I think* Leaded gas snouts are bigger. Where I was from, and things certainly change, they just checked the fuel input diameter to make sure you could not introduce Leaded Fuel into the system. There may be a folk or two around here who can confirm that. Back in the days of, "I have my keys in hand and am still watching my car idle (badly)"

 

[IAmKrazy2]

I see that Rick is going with an all RoHS brass setup from here on. I think this is good news and proves that knowledge is power. Congratulations on the new move Rick.

I agree, and a very respectable thing to say. Classy Sir!!

 

[Madcap Laughed]

aw man i just rediscovered my love for the zap and now i get reminded of all this now im afraid of the zap again damn!

 

[lwien]

What the...... ??

 

[AGBeer]

Christ, I...

Im not going to comment is what I am going to do.

 

[lwien]

(delete...........sigh)