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Internal Charring in Log-Type Vapes ??

Discussion in 'Ask FC' started by lwien, Sep 17, 2010.

  1. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,565
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    Has anyone here broken down a used PD or Zap that's been used for about a year and if so, can you tell me if there is very much internal wood charring going on?
  2. fidget

    fidget Well-Known Member

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    popcorn.gif
  3. hemp;)goofy8cheerio

    hemp;)goofy8cheerio New Member

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    401
    i notice not quite charring yet darkenin of wood where c-clip is half inch down after i left a wood top to help get it mor warm like beer cozy trick.
    prolly shouldn't have forgot i left it on there 4 may b half hour
  4. aero18

    aero18 vaporist

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    776
    Location:
    Seattle WA
    I'll have a look at the inside of my MZ tomorrow, Lwien. I'll make note as to whether there is any charring and to what degree. My heater has been getting a bit loose...
  5. Flyer

    Flyer Well-Known Member

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    none here, used well
  6. reece

    reece Well-Known Member

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    Oregon
    I would imagine there is some charring over time. I see no charring inside my Zap, but I can only see wood from the top the clip that secures the heater. I'm not going to open it. What is the concern, Lwien?
  7. hemp;)goofy8cheerio

    hemp;)goofy8cheerio New Member

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    401
    may b idea 4 glass log vape or any materials char no mor if it turns out under normal use log-type vapes may char dunno?
  8. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    10,565
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    Mainly I was wondering if any internal charring could be the cause of the heat exchanger getting loose over time.
  9. VWFringe

    VWFringe Naruto Fan

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    935
    Location:
    South Orange County, CA
    These old Eterra's I bought here are very charred inside, but they're prolly real old,

    can't use 'em, the taste of the wood gets in the way

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    the heat exchanger's loose, yes, and due to the charring, yes, i believe, but again, this is an older Eterra - I think it'll take a five more years for any PD to look like this inside!
  10. reece

    reece Well-Known Member

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    846
    Location:
    Oregon

    Got ya. I think you may be right on that.
  11. Rick

    Rick Zapman

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    1,211
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    You bet there is charring going on deep in the heatport hole under the top plate. Cannot really avoid that since we have a heater in wood. It is a delicate balance going on between a softer wood that allows log vapes to vape close to the top of the vapor spectrum and a hardwood that will resist charring more the harder it gets but then not produce enough vapor.
    The heatport gets loose because it is installed in non log vapolized wood. Once the heat process begins and continues, the wood will change shape slightly. Normally the center hole will decrease in diameter right away. That is why a tool that fits the hole precisely when new will be too tight very soon. That is also why we grind the ends of the retaining rings down for our Tite kit as the stock ring will not squeeze tight enough to go into the 'aged' top hole.
    So the wood changes shape a little but the main thing is the top ring, being it is tight against the wood, burns a slot into the wood. Like a wood burned ring in the wood that the retaining ring will always seat in. Even if you tighten it, it will only be good for awhile as it will re-seat into the original burned in groove. In the meantime the heatport chamber liner will drop a bit , just a little over time so to keep the top assembly tight it needs to be moved down just a hair. But the tightening ring wants to go home to it's original spot in the hole. Loose again
    That is why we recommend a second or third ring installed over the original. The new ring will grab fresh uncharred wood and keep it all tight much longer.
    This is an innate problem with log vapes made from wood. I suppose glass or plastic would not do that but then they are not wood.
  12. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,565
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    ^^
    Thanks for the input Rick. Brings up two questions.

    One, is that from your explanation above, it seems that continuing charring will eventually make a log-type vape unusable after a certain amount of time, eh? And if that's the case, maybe it's best not to leave them on 24/7 to help minimize the internal charring issue.

    Secondly, is that we all know that inhaling smoke from burning wood is carcinogenic. How much of a concern is it here?
  13. fidget

    fidget Well-Known Member

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    282
    Probably a lot more of a concern than the brass that someone made such a huge deal about. :rolleyes:
    Nice of Rick to comment - where is Tom?
  14. stinkmeaner

    stinkmeaner Well-Known Member

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    1,024
    It's funny that it takes pictures to get everyone excited about this issue, I mentioned this a while ago and nobody seemed to take it seriously.

    Maybe someone needs to start a "Log Vape Tune Up Service" which could rebuild older log vaporizers with new wood and keep the same internals, well maybe replace the resistor (heating element) since they are only a few bucks.
  15. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,565
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    Damn, why bring that stuff up again, especially with the rolleyes? The brass issue was a very valid concern and a lot of good info was brought to light in that thread. Good discussions ensued, but it's time to move on, eh?

    Tom and Pammy are in the process of moving.......to another state.
  16. fidget

    fidget Well-Known Member

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    282
    Think it is pretty valid to bring it up.
    I didn't believe the brass to be a hazard and i very much doubt the charring will be either but I'm willing to bet the "pitchfork posse" won't be quite as eager to sharpen their prongs on this one for some reason.
  17. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,565
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    Pitchfork posse?

    Here's the deal. I believe that the brass issues was a hazard and I was very involved in that discussion. I also believe that this "could" be a hazard as well and I've been a user of this type of vape for over a year. I have a very close relationship with Tom, as well as others who have a very close relationship with Rick. This isn't about attacking either one of them. This is merely an inquiry into "potential" health risks and at this point in the discussion, is no more or less valid than the questions that was brought up about brass.

    Fidget, I suggest you drop this "pitchfork posse" idea for it will do nothing but rip the scab off of old wounds, and that we should instead talk about the issue that I just brought up. Of course, this is just a request.

    But if you really want to go down that path, I'll just bow out of this discussion right now, 'cause quite frankly, that path got really old.

    Brass has nothing to do with this discussion and neither do the Zaps or the PD's in particular. This is a question in regards to ALL vapes of this design, not only in regards to potential health issues, but in regards to the wear and tear of leaving them on 24/7. So lets talk about those issues and discuss so we can either validate those concerns or put them to bed. Btw, this type of vape is my go to vape and is basically the only vape I use, so it is a concern for me, as I am sure it very well may be a concern for others.

    You think it's really valid to bring up the brass issue again? Why, since we have already discussed that issue in depth?
  18. fidget

    fidget Well-Known Member

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    282
    Chill out on your steam bong mate.
  19. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,565
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    Oh, I'm chill, fidget. Just bringin' up some questions and see nothing wrong in challenging any issues in regards to vaporizers. Hell, that's one of the reasons why this site exists, eh? The troubles arise when fanboys from ANY camp come in here to defend their beloved vape, be it a Zap, a PD or any other vape, rather than just being able to have an objective discussion on the issues at hand.
  20. AGBeer

    AGBeer Lost in Thought

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    1,713
    Location:
    Deep in my lungs
    I think it only becomes an issue when I am using my homemade plastic heater through a wood alcohol filled bong with the complimentary asbestos mouthpiece. :lol:

    Seriously, Lwien is our token 'ask questions that nobody else does' but ultimately works out to a well thought out discussion in the end. I dont fault him for not taking everything made about these vapes as gospel, and taking the concept of 'reduced harm' that we get from vaping another step further. (Believe it or not, he really DOES mean well)

    With that said,

    In your statement earlier, you said 'burning wood' is carcinogenic. Is this a result of the byproducts that are produced when pretty much ANYTHING is burned? Or are you concerned of a (very small) offgassing of sorts as the wood gets 'broken in' and ultimately 'toasted'?

    I know I have heard that burned toast (pretty much anything burned to the point of carbon) is carcinogenic. But I still eat toasted bread :) Is this vape actually BURNED or just seasoned and toasted quite well?

    Petrified wood was once upon a time wood as well too
  21. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,565
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    lol

    lol. I vaguely remember one of my profs saying the exact same thing. Shit get's me in trouble sometimes.



    Both, I think.

    http://www.ehhi.org/woodsmoke/health_effects.shtml
    http://burningissues.org/car-www/science/pah-comp-wood-coal.htm

    I'm really not trying to emulate a bubble-boy here, but rather just bringing up something that crossed my mind.

    Does seasoning and toasting mean that there is no off-gassing taking affect? I have no idea.

    But I'd also like to explore the idea that it may not be in the best interest of long term reliability in leaving these vapes operating 24/7 do to the charring creating a loose heat exchanger and that it may be better to turn these puppies off when not in use.
  22. stinkmeaner

    stinkmeaner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,024
    The whole term OFF GASSING is Propaganda that I believe started on the Vapor Brothers website with its purpose to turn people against other vaporizers.

    Here is the some definitions

    What is Offgassing?
    Offgassing is the evaporation of volatile chemicals in non-metallic materials at normal atmospheric pressure. This means that building materials can release chemicals into the air through evaporation. This evaporation can continue for years after the products are initially installed which means you continue to breathe these chemicals as you work, sleep and relax in your home or office.

    What Building Materials Offgass?
    Materials such as paints, stains, varnishes, carpet, insulation, flooring, kitchen cabinets and countertops, plywood, particleboard, and paint strippers can produce significant offgassing in your home or office. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) warns about the health effects of poor Indoor Air Quality from the offgassing of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs).

    Source
    http://www.natureneutral.com/learnOff.php
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-offgassing.htm
  23. AGBeer

    AGBeer Lost in Thought

    Messages:
    1,713
    Location:
    Deep in my lungs
    I think the term off-gassing was more of a generic term describing what I was trying to convey :)
    (Not necessarily the 'correct' definition of the term)

    Like when you put a piece of bread in the toaster - you see the vaporous trails of the moisture leaving the bread due to the subtle heating of it. One would consider this an 'off-gassing' of sorts no? (Same concept) :)
  24. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,565
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    Achhh........semantics.
  25. stinkmeaner

    stinkmeaner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,024
    Somebody with a more current but well used Log Vape should open it up and see if there is any charring. Shit, that Ettera could be from the Reagan Administration.

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