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How safe is aluminum in vapes really?

Discussion in 'Ask FC' started by natural farmer, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. lazylathe

    lazylathe Almost there...

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    Found this from the Alzheimer's Society: (note the published date and highlighted areas)

    Is there a connection between aluminum and the development of dementia?
    Aluminum has been studied for over 40 years as a substance that might be linked to dementia. However, there have been many conflicting findings.

    • Some studies show increased levels of trace elements of aluminum in the brains of people with dementia, while others do not.
    • Studies have not found an increased incidence of dementia in people with occupational exposure to aluminum.
    • Tea is one of the few plants whose leaves accumulate larger trace element amounts of aluminum that can seep into the brewed beverage. However, there is no evidence that dementia is more prevalent in cultures that typically drink large amounts of tea.
    • Unfortunately, earlier animal studies focused on one animal that is particularly susceptible to aluminum poisoning, which has led to incorrect conclusions about the general effects of aluminum on the body.
    What about pots and pans?
    It would be difficult to significantly reduce exposure to aluminum simply by avoiding the use of aluminum cookware, foil, beverage cans and other products. Use of aluminum in pots and pans only contributes to a very small percentage of the average person's intake of aluminum.

    In summary
    Current research provides no convincing evidence that exposure to trace elements of aluminum is connected to the development of dementia.


    Last Updated: 03/16/17
     
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  2. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    Aluminum is the most abundant element on Earth! we need aluminum too in our bodies... balance though and how much is the question? copper as well= we need it! each person needs what they need and amounts vary among the populace
     
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  3. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    "Aluminum is neither required by biological systems nor is it known to participate in any essential biological processes. While today all living organisms contain some aluminum, there is no scientific evidence that any organism uses aluminum for any biological purpose. There is similarly no evidence from the proteome or genome that any organism has utilized aluminum at any time in the evolutionary record. Aluminum’s abundance and paradoxical lack of biological function remains a biochemical enigma."

    http://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-1-4614-1533-6_105
     
  4. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead FC-OG

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    W need vitamins and minerals in organic liquid form which is bio-absorbable by our body. That's why you can't eat nails to get iron - it's not the same (inorganic) And sodium chloride is not sodium, just like carbon monoxide is not carbon.
     
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  5. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    I'm a carpenter and have eaten a few nails.. lol... not really but feel like it sometimes lol.. I am certainly shooting nails!
     
  6. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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  7. howie105

    howie105 Well-Known Member

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    Framer, finish or both? :)
     
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  8. vapirtoo

    vapirtoo Well-Known Member

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    Great research Sticks; this info eases my mind on my Supreme which has such great taste
    that I couldn't believe that aluminum was being released in tiny amounts. I'm glad it is clean and safe.
    Keep the great work up! Thanks
     
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  9. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    @vapirtoo: I wouldn't transpose the Volcano analysis to the Supreme so easily. It's a surface that you torch right? (sorry I didn't follow this particular vape development)
     
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  10. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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    @KeroZen - I've been thinking about your point of the Tera bowl being aluminum instead of the heat exchanger. Do we have any evidence that the use of aluminum in direct contact with food or organic substances is okay below 500F? I saw somewhere that foil isn't good to cook on in the oven, which would be very similar to out situation. Do you have links to any science I can put behind that?
     
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  11. Dynavaper

    Dynavaper Karma Farmer

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    @stickstones: Don't get me wrong: I am a big admirer of your profound knowledge and fantastic contributions here. This has nothing to do with you, but a single study - paid by the producer himself - is not enough to take away my unscientific gut feeling about the material. I mean - It's great that this study exists, no question. But this is not scientific. One would need several studies, ideally independent ones, to have proof.

    Stainless steel and Titanium have a proven track record for years (if not decades) in medicinal products. Damn, I even have around 1kg of stainless steel and titanium in my back. Aluminium has always been good for bad news in the past. Therefore I really wonder why it is used without much more research first.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
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  12. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    I;ve mentioned this in the Supreme thread @KeroZen ,but SV-2 was giving me headaches ,and i attribute it to it being made of aluminium.. I have the princess and pea syndrome :D... it is not important that it is just pea , i just cannot get a good sleep when it is there.. I've read also that Alu toxicity might lead to Alzheimer..
     
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  13. howie105

    howie105 Well-Known Member

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    Its risk tolerance, everybody has their own level of acceptability. Given that it is almost impossible to find consensus on this sort of safety question. IMO
     
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  14. Morty

    Morty Well-Zoned Member

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    I have two Supremes & have never gotten any sort of headache & have been using it as my DD for a little while now. (Also have never tasted any metal hitting it dry w/ no load).

    I'm not trying to discount @Abysmal Vapor & his experiences, just share my own.
     
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  15. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    Yep, i guess i am extra sensitive to it. None of my friends was getting headaches from the same unit.
     
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  16. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    Both, the all out rush to frame it out only to go to to slow on little tiny shoe mold returns :ugh:... it is reverse psychology man! seriously though, I only frame decks every now and then now but mostly trim and repairs as a career now..
     
  17. howie105

    howie105 Well-Known Member

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    Good on you, I always wanted parts of the finish carpentry skill set but never got there so I frame up everything including furniture. Upholstery covers a multitude of sins. :)
     
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  18. stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member Accessory Maker

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    Do a google search and take a look to which metals are accepted and utilised by medicine ,
    as being inert and/or biocompatible .
    Aluminium is not one of them.
    The effects of Aluminium bioaccumulation are not fully known yet .
    But myself ,am pretty sure that ain't gonna be good news ,there.

    Beneath are the main metals and their alloys,
    that are safe to use for the construction of a vaporizer device parts,
    that come in contact with incoming air ,herb load and vapor path :

    - Stainless Steel : grades like 304 ,316,316L .
    - Titanium (mostly grades 1,2, & 3 ).
    - Niobium and most of it's alloys .
    - Tantalum and most of it's alloys .
    - Zirconium.
    - Some Cobalt alloys (like MP35N ).
    - Platinum and most of it's alloys.
    - Gold and most of it's alloys.

    Metals like Iron,Tin,Zinc,Lead,Copper,Aluminium,Nickel,Chromium,Beryllium,Cadmium,Silver,Vanadium,
    Molybdenum & Manganese
    should be avoided at the construction of a vaporizer device or it's parts.
    Some are already forbidden to use

    https://metalcutting.com/specialty-metals-medical-device-applications/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_toxicity
     
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  19. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    Great info ! I totally share your opinion on the subject ,i've done my fair share of research on metal toxicity too.. and i wont be taking any chances with that ,cause my health is my priority and the main reason i've chosen to vaporize...Also i have to mention that it is not necessary to feel the harm in the moment of usage ,it is even less likely when you are high a kite..,but this doesnt mean it is not happening.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
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  20. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    Isn't aluminum being used in airplane exhaust to fix the Ozone?!? LOFL I think its called chem trails Uh-Hum... doesn't aluminum in the atmosphere fall to the ground instead and onto food crops? WTF?
     
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  21. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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    12,173
    I get you...no worries. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just posing the questions and chasing the data to see what we can find. Please come to your own conclusions...I'm only hear to help and walk with along the way. For me, in the absence of anything else to confirm or contradict it, this study is comforting. I think it's more reliable than our pure speculation. But I don't want to get comfortable with something not worthy, which brings me to...

    ...this has been my stance on solvents in extracts and has served me well. Probably a good one to take here, too.

    I mentioned in another thread that no one has yet to make an aluminum bowl (that's probably wrong...Supreme is all aluminum, right?) when @KeroZen pointed out the difference between using aluminum as a heat exchanger versus a bowl coming in direct contact with our herbs (which is more like the cooking we are told to avoid). But S&B has been using aluminum dosing capsules for a while now, and they were instrumental in getting the Mighty a medical designation.

    So, my problem is this. We have anecdotal stuff against aluminum, as well as science against it in other applications. Normally this alone would steer me away from aluminum by default as a precaution. But then I look at all the aluminum S&B is using in multiple forms for vapes, and I think about all the engineering those guys put into their vapes and the testing they have done and have had done independently, coupled with the medical designation...and I have a hard time convincing myself it's a problem here. I mean, we're talking about the benchmarks for vapes for the entire history of the industry (albeit a short history). The only independent testing done for purity in vapor was with two vapes that have aluminum heat exchangers (Volcano and Minivap).

    My point is, while the concern is real, every bit of vaporizer evidence I can find says it's not. Are they repeated, peer reviewed studies...no. But they are still the best info we have.

    And all of this brings me to no real conclusion!
     
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  22. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    As to heavy metal accumulation in our bodies- Check this Dr's work out... Dr Christopher Shade at Quick Silver Scientific
    He is also working with lipisomal hemp delivery systems= fascinating stuff!
     
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  23. Alexis

    Alexis Peace keeper, fun maker and 3/4 time vaporist.

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    Something which has bemused me a little since learning of it recently:

    "Stainless steel must contain at least 10.5 percent chromium. Depending on the grade, it may contain much higher chromium levels, and additional alloying ingredients like molybdenum, nickel, titanium, aluminum, copper, nitrogen, phosphorous and selenium.

    The two most common stainless steel grades are 304 and 316. The key difference is the addition of molybdenum, an alloy which drastically enhances corrosion resistance, especially for more saline or chloride-exposed environments. 316 stainless steel contains molybdenum, but 304 doesn’t."

    So I'm a little bit puzzled about this because it appears that molybdenum is certainly present in the 316 stainless steel, and chromium is present in all stainless steel.
    So I'm not sure how this works out for us practically and effect wise?

    As some of you probably know, I personally reported and extremely severe but very genuine allergic reaction to using the Supreme 3 vaporizer last year. I had a very severe respiratory reaction causing major sinus throat and lung inflammation, and excessive mucus production way above what I typically experience from vaporizing with other devices.

    It was actually quite dangerous for me and I was choking on mucus and nearly suffocating each night as my throat was so inflamed, and I was in extreme discomfort in my lungs like I have never experienced with another vaporizer.

    It was impossible for me to keep the vaporizer, which I sold on to another member who has been happy with it since.

    I took the supreme vaporizer to my homeopath the uses a very accurate and sophisticated diagnostic tool which can check any substance to see if the body is having a good or a bad reaction to it.

    We tested the supreme and the indication was a pretty bad allergy.
    However I never said that this means that the material was off gassing or releasing toxins. I suggested that it may be possible that the energetic signature of the material at that high temperature was imparted into the heated air which is capable of causing the allergic reaction on a vibrational level, which I know is essentially how allergies work, as every single substance or entity has its own particular unique vibrational energy.

    At the same time I'm not ruling out that off gassing or release of toxins was occurring. I just don't think that has to happen for there to be a reaction.

    So I really don't know what to make of the stainless steel containing molybdenum and chromium.:hmm:
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
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  24. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    Stainless steels containing molybdenum are required in the manufacture of certain pharmaceuticals in order to avoid excessive metallic contamination. So i guess there is reason why Medical industry prefers Steel over Aluminum .
    Well I am pretty sure that Nickel And Molybdenum are 16% and 2 % of the 316 and they are very hard to leech in acidic food even with 20 hours of cooking ,so i think it is pretty safe with air..(for example in logvape cores ) While feeling that SS > Aluminum ,i dont think that i would feel fine if i was inhaling torched SS with 1300 C flame.
    http://healthybuildingscience.com/2013/11/22/safe-cookware-2/
    -------------------------
    Please excuse me for the multiple edits, i just took a very large dose of ibuprofen ,and i feel like my brain function dropped with 30% . I really hate pharmaceuticals ,but i hate tooth pain even more :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
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  25. stardustsailor

    stardustsailor Well-Known Member Accessory Maker

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    Molybdenum when inside in various steel alloys ,forms carbides with carbon.
    Consider carbides something like diamonds.Really hard and stable materials.
    Molybdenum does not pose any health risks while alloyed in various steel grades.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum

    Same applies for Vanadium ,when alloyed with steel.

    As for Chromium ,is the hexavalent Chromium(VI) that is a known carcinogenic,
    which is not present at any stainless steel alloy.
    As for the trivalent Chromium -which is present at all the stainless steel grades
    and at many of the tool steel grades- is actually an essential nutrient in trace amounts .
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium


    If any allergies occured from stainless steel ,that maybe due to the Nickel content of the alloy
    or toxic-metal impurities in the alloy .
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel

    Still ,myself I can't stand even stainless steel.
    I can tell the difference between a meal cooked in a stainless steel pan/fry/whateva from
    the same exact meal that was cooked in an old fashioned ceramic /pottery pan /cooker/etc.
    I can feel a strong "metallic" taste from stainless steel.
    A bit "acidic" and somewhat "electric" taste/feeling inside my mouth.
    Same happens with forks and spoons.
    Same happened when I brought the Dynavap M at my lips for the very first time.

    With other metals ,like aluminum things get worse.
    I just can't eat anything that was wrapped inside alum. foil.
    It's has a disgusting taste,quite evident to me.
    Smells really weird,too.

    Basically ,I've worked quite a lot with various metals
    (especially with aluminium & it's alloys ).
    Maybe that's why I got so "sensitised" with them .
    Every each one of them has it's own distinct smell.
    Yes,metals do smell.
    When they get turned,grinded,welded,forged ,etc they do smell .
    Aluminium has an awful and quite irritating smell/fumes.
    From all the metals I've worked with ,only titanium seems to be
    missing any characteristic odor or "taste".

    A "feeling in the guts" says to me that there are some really "bad news" about aluminium,
    but not known yet .

     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
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