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High Potency, Concentrate Based, DIY Tincture Talk

Discussion in 'Concentrates' started by randomtoker, Jul 3, 2016.

  1. randomtoker

    randomtoker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    Hey all!

    DISCLAIMER:

    I searched around in the 'cooking' sub-forum, and here in the 'concentrates' sub-forum and haven't found a thread dedicated to the subject in the title here (high potency tinctures made from concentrates). It comes up in passing in some related threads but I haven't found this specifically. Lemme know if a more relevant thread already exists and I'll join there instead.

    SPIRIT OF THIS THREAD:

    The spirit of this thread is "quick", "accessible", "potent". There are manu slow, inaccessible, heavily diluted recipes out there using whole herb. Let's talk fast, easy, powerful starting with concentrates.

    I forgot the word "Fast" in the title, this is really to share things a total noob could do fast with little resources. Concentrates are getting more affordable and accessible, they could provide a great shortcut for people who don't grow or extract.

    Here's what I've found from searching around yesterday:

    QUICK DECARB ETHANOL TEK:

    I found this step by step pictoral tek on imgr. It's simple and I confirmed it works.
    http://m.imgur.com/a/7CrhX

    Summary:
    - Heat concentrate at 270f for 12 minutes to decarb
    - Mix in desired ratio of 190 proof ethanol

    Notes:
    - The important thing from the imgr pics is that concentrate can decarb fine in 12 minutes at 270f in an oven. I tried this, it works. This is cool news to me.
    - FYI, THC solubility in ethanol is 1:1 so "technically" you could go pretty low if you had very pure concentrate (winterized/dewaxed)

    Advantages & Disadvantages:
    + Alcohol under the tongue absorbs into bloodstream quickly
    + Alcohol is less viscous than coconut oil or honey, so it's usable in portable dropper bottles
    + fast, easy, and accessible, procedure and tools, single step decarb, no oil bath needed
    - Alcohol burns under the tongue
    - Alcohol makes your breath stink, could lead to undue attention
    - Problematic if you don't want to consume any alcohol
    - May not need to go up to that temp (comments?)

    QUICK BOIL GLYCERIN TEK:

    This tek is from an old thread on THC Farmer boards by user pirobot668. His info was still experimental and I've never heard anyone else try this.

    The info is spread across these 3 posts: Post 1, Post 2, Post 3

    Summary:
    - Heat glycerin to THC vape point
    - Drop in bits of concentrate
    - Concentrate vaporizes but the THC in the vapor is immediately captured by the glycerin
    - Remove unmixed oils and re-drop into hot glycerin (repeat, like doing multiple washes in an extraction)

    Notes (from those thread posts):
    - Solubility of THC in glycerin is 1:3 (pure thc to glycerin) so "technically" you could get pretty potent with very clean concentrate if successful
    - Glycerin boils at about 550 F, THC around 320 F, CBD about 360 F so you could pick your temp if you want cerebral or medicinal effects. It's possible this can still be successful at lower temps than 320, worth experimenting
    - Winterizing initial concentrate, and each separated oil capture before re-dropping maximizes efficiency (ie: the cleaner the concentrate you're dropping in the hot glycerin, the more THC you'll catch each time)

    Advantages & Disadvantages:
    + Glycerin is less viscous than coconut oil or honey, much easier to use in dropper bottles
    - might be tricky to not waste THC doing this, need to experiment with temp ranges
    - could easily end up with derpy, sleepy, weak, overdecarbed tincture, gotta try

    --------------------------------------


    My attempt at Quick Decarb Ethanol Tek (QDET?):

    [​IMG]
    Order of pics: top to bottom on left, top to bottom on right, final result in center

    Notes:
    - only have 150 proof everclear but tried anyway
    - used 1 gram of cheap dispensary wax
    - decarbed in pyrex jar in oven at ~270 for 12 minutes (it bubbled, then settled and clarified)
    - slowly mixed 3ml ethanol, then added 6 more for total ratio of 1:9 (wax to everclear)
    - mixed for a few minutes with fast coffee mixer in bottle (probably unnecessary)
    - let sit for a while (not necessary, just curious how much it would separate)

    A glob of oily stuff formed at the bottom that is roughly 1/3 the size of the original gram of wax. I'm not sure if that would have fully dissolved if I used 190 proof. Has anyone tried something similar? Thoughts? I assume if the wax was ~70% thc then this is the 30% remaining plant matter. Remixes easy with mild shake, but separates again quick.

    6-12 drops under tongue and a mellow cerebral high arrives 5-10 minutes later lasting a couple hours.

    24 drops under tongue (burns!) yielded excellent (++) 4 hour high.

    Rough potency math: If my wax was ~70% THC, then there was ~700mg THC in 1g. Final mix is ~10ml total (1g+9ml) so it is roughly 700mg THC in 10ml so each 1ml (or 1 dropper of my bottle) contains 70mg THC now. Make sense? So a quarter dropper is about 17mg which is a mellow/mild candy edible dose for me.

    Next time I'll try highly concentrated (1:2 - 1:4) so it's very minimal drops required. I intentionally didn't mix this for maximum potency/concentration because I wanted to test the lower threshold first.

    No concentrate left. Next time I get some, I'll try the Quick Boil Glycerin Tek (QBGT?) as well and post results.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
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  2. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    726
    Why no replies? Never thought of making tincture from concentrate, but makes sense. Once licked evapoation bowl after making e-juice. A fine evening, indeed!

    CONCENTRATE MUST BE FULLY PURGED BEFORE PLACING IN OVEN at 270F! Concerned mention of ethanol above could be confusing.

    Olive oil is an alternative to coconut oil. Recommend trying oil bath at 250F at least once. Fun and educational to watch tiny CO2 bubbles. Fully decarbed can be wonderfully sedating.

    What separated oil capture before re-dropping? Agree risky method. What color is oily stuff? When evaporating ethanol with low heat, cloudy emulsion forms. Concentrates into white, foamy glob that readily dissolves in ethanol. Best to use as little water as possible. Even so, too much can be picked up from the air. Curious about results.

    Ethanol under tongue quickly numbs. Can cause something like pizza burn, especially if held under tongue for a few minutes.

    Any interest in relatively concentrated glycol tinctures from flowers? 1:5 flowers might yield up to 22.5 mg/ml. Can be increased with subsequent extractions.
     
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  3. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

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    I wondered why, too. :-)

    I used sublingual that I considered tincture for many years (since it is used decarbed and sublingual I guess was my thought), and process can be used starting with re-dissolved concentrate.

    Anyway it is from Skunk Pharm, I used HAO and still have some I think, here's the link:

    https://skunkpharmresearch.com/holy-anointing-oil-and-holy-shit/

    Peace everyone!

    (Oops, and I use their coconut oil version of recipe not olive oil)
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
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  4. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    726
    Funny - sent randomtoker same link in different thread. Do "extra" ingredients make a difference? Coconut oil doesn't solidify? Thanks.
     
  5. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

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    Ha, that is funny!

    No but it can settle a very tiny bit, and so I kept mine in a 1/2oz amber glass dropper bottle with glass dropper. So each time using it I would roll it in my hands to warm it for ten seconds or something.

    And I only got that if I got my coconut oil side too high, like 1:1. (Recipe calls for .3g coconut oil per 1.0g oil, I do like .5g to 1.0, but my hands aren't always steady...)

    Comes out in black drops, one or two under tongue for five minutes and 4 hours hammered, 2 more still pretty good. I basically dosed it sublingually every 6 hours.

    Nice part is cinnamon in recipe lets you feel / taste where it is "tacked" under the tongue. :D

    Peace!
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
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  6. Maitri

    Maitri Deadhead, Low-Temp Dabber, Mahayana Buddhist

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    What amazing timing! Earlier this week I decided to make medibles from concentrates so I learned how to decarb it by watching the bubbles at 250°. I was thinking about mixing it with coconut oil to use with food, but a tincture could be even better. One quick question: What is the purging? Is that just another word for decarbing?

    Thank you all! :)
     
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  7. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    726
    Purging and decarbing are not the same things, but they can happen at the same time. Purging is removing any trace solvent used in extraction. Decarboxylation is the chemical process that activates THC (and liberates CO2). If you purchase quality concentrates, they should already be purged. This is achieved by heat, vacuum or both. Purging high THC concentrates under vacuum, without decarbing, can produce solid concentrates. If you decarb at 250F until the bubbles stop, you purge at the same time, but the oil is more viscous and darker.

    Ethanol vapor is flammable so avoid heating in an enclosed space, like an oven. Trace amounts might not be a problem, but better safe than sorry.

    Not as experienced as others on forum, so feel free to correct.
     
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  8. randomtoker

    randomtoker Well-Known Member

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    205
    Ya, I've seen that "holy oil" recipe on skunk farm before. It looked nice enough, but maybe too many ingredients for me. Concentrate and alcohol works fine.

    I have made lots of canna-coconut oil, but always from buds or ABV. I may try some with concentrate (it's simple enough). Since it's summer, it's possible that it'll stay runny enough to store in a dropper bottle and dispense/ingest like a tincture. I'll let you know!

    I've been loving this tincture I made. The alcohol burns, but even at 1:9 ratio, a few drops delivers a great little high. If I made it any stronger, I would maybe just go down to 1:6. I've never experimented with tinctures like this. The only times I've had any I've been given a few drops here or there. Having a bottle to work with is interesting. There's a slower reaction but longer lasting effect than vaping, but it's much faster and more manageable than edibles.
     
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  9. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

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    Awesome awesome.

    People used to laugh at my sublingual use, and I told them the same, it's about halfway between medibles and vape oil in EJMix, and I prefer it over both.

    Peace and good tinctures!
     
  10. randomtoker

    randomtoker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    Quick little note here, something I tried that I like and seems share worthy.

    I was making a new batch of tincture starting with cheap concentrate from a dispensary and I had a though: why not use split pg/alcohol instead of pure alcohol? PG mixes well with concentrate and it also mixes fine with alcohol.

    So I made a batch with this ratio:
    1 gram concentrate
    4.5 ml everclear (I can only get 151 proof)
    4.5 ml pg

    I stuck with the 1:9 ratio to make it about 10% thc. It's what I've used a couple of times and I like that I can titrate the dose very lightly. The problem in the past is that the alcohol really burns under the tongue. I like alcohol based tincture though because of how fast it absorbs with sublingual administration. Mixing half and half alcohol/pg made it way less harsh to the touch! The tincture barely burns.

    I haven't noticed if it affects absorption rate, but I suspect it must be slightly less than pure alcohol. I just keep it under my tongue longer (which isn't difficult because it doesn't burn).

    Anyway, simple little thing. Seems so obvious but I'd never thought about it before. Anyone else do this?
     
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  11. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

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    Careful ingesting LMW PEGs like 200, 400, etc. and PLEASE do a quick Google search for specifics? If I recall it is like LMW (Low Molecular Weight) is better in lungs but I *think* not ingested.

    And I swear I hope I am not being Chicken Little here, friend!

    I had asked Skunk Pharm when wanting to polish some decarbed vape oil (EJMix and earrl) and somebody from SP itself said don't (because the pegs were LMW).

    Peace!

    EDIT: Here is a decent article, but science-ey:

    http://m.mutage.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/3/261.full
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2016
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  12. randomtoker

    randomtoker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    PG, not PEG. Mixed low ratio for dripping sublingualy, not ingesting dropper fulls.

    From what I've read about PG in the past, it's a common ingredient in oral, nasal, eye, and ear pharmaceutical drops, as well as confectionery foods, and is not considered toxic for oral consumption until volumes of liters at a time.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol
     
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  13. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

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    Excellent. Being wrong in this case for me rocks!

    Peace!
     
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  14. randomtoker

    randomtoker Well-Known Member

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    205
    Regardless, still really good info. I had not known about potential PEG oral ingestion hazards. Good for everyone to know. What I like most about this forum is how safety conscious everyone is.
     
  15. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

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    Thanks @randomtoker , I worry that I get too "purist" sometimes - considering the pharmaceutical poisons cannabis keeps me away *from*.

    I originally started with oral RSO for pain, but found flowers or shatter worked better. But when I had to do chemo for pancreatic cancer, I went back.

    And when I did, I was really surprised to find that I could only tolerate first-wash QWET (I make my own with EC189), and none of the addt'l ingredients from Skunk Pharm's HAO recipe except a very small amount of coconut oil.

    Here's to us keepin' on keepin' on while we wait to be allowed to openly and properly study a medicinal plant and its delivery methods.

    Peace and healing everyone.
     
  16. randomtoker

    randomtoker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    Yes, agreed. I also prefer simpler, whole, organic materials (like coconut oil). PG is not in that category unfortunately. Since it's summer now and coconut oil is runny, I want to make a tincture with just concentrate and coconut oil and see how it performs in a dripper bottle, and how the absorption/effectiveness compares to an alcohol based tincture.

    --

    In related news, I've come across some interesting information. This last batch of tincture that I made with ~50/50 (ethanol/PG) has lasted me significantly longer than previous pure ethanol tinctures, and I've noticed that smaller administrations are equally effective. I don't think it's my imagination, it really seems significantly better.

    This got me thinking... does PG increase bioavailability when used sublingualy? I know PG is a common diluent for various drug administrations, but I always assumed it was just for something to dissolve active ingredients in. Apparently, it's common medical knowledge that adding it to formulations also increases their effectiveness! Wow!

    Here's a few quick links to a couple studies and an abstract regarding this. They reference oral, topical / transdermal, which sublingual encompasses all of.

    Summary take-away from first link: "It was long ago learned that adding prolylene glycol to a formulation can dramatically raise its clinical performance. This should no longer be surprising as propylene glycol sustains a level of solubility and transport needed for topical systems to work"

    Interesting stuff!
     
  17. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

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    Yeah @randomtoker I've always had clumping when trying to use just concentrate and EC189. I am looking forward to seeing how the glycerin TEK works for you. Looking for at least a 30mg dose that stays stable. Even coconut oil I had to roll the amber dropper bottle in my hands to warm it sometimes to get it totally mixed each day.

    Peace, and thanks for all the hard work!
     
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  18. killick

    killick But I like it!

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    Location:
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    Have you experimented with MCT oil? Medium Chain Triglycerides are a combo of mcts from both coconut and palm, and is liquid at room temp. Works great in coffee.

    I'll be making some decarbed tincture shortly, and am going to evap most of the alcohol off and then infuse that in VG. I'm aiming for a fairly potent VG that can be used sublingua (without the burn), on flower in Milaana, or topically. Tincture is great in that you can infuse most anything with it and not have to worry about all the filtering at the end. Especially handy for things like VG and honey.
     
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  19. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

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    I have some extra Sour Diesel popcorn and fine trim I will use for a test - something I've wondered about for a while.

    I am going to make an absolut mash, put in an empty alcohol bottle, and then let it sit in a dark cabinet at room temperature for 90 days or so and see how / if it decarbs. Several FC'ers have made naturally decarbed oil (once purged and in raw oil state, of course) and so now I am curious if natural decarb will occur in ethanol.

    Peace!
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
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  20. OldOyler

    OldOyler Fire it again. I can still find the ground.

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    Peace everyone!

    Okay, had an epic disaster of a Sour Diesel shatter run, so I decided to get on that project I mentioned about trying to do natural decarb in ethanol over time (rather than applying higher heat).

    I took 1g of mystery shatter from folded parchment (tasted Kush-ey, like OG is somewhere in there for sure), .6g Cinderella99 shatter, and .72g mystery BHO oil (friend had gotten them in round 1g silicone containers, used them down until they got difficult to work with, then handed them off to me - I still have like 8 more from him to go through).

    I then put that in 80ML EC189 and reduced at 100F, to about 40ML, then added a tiny bit to clean slick sheet, result is 52ML finished tincture (second pic below).

    [​IMG]

    Anyway, like I said I am going to try naturally decarbing the tincture for about 3 months in a dark cabinet in a glass container (pictured below). Didn't think to run resulting numbers for potency, will get to that after White OG Kush wears off...

    Hoping for a "half-dropper or less does the trick for 6 hours" result, of course 3 months is a ways off, sorry!

    [​IMG]

    Peace everyone!
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  21. randomtoker

    randomtoker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    I've been reading about MCTs, but I don't know where to purchase. I found one option but didn't like their ordering requirements. Curious to hear how well your tincture stays mixed with VG.

    Nice, sounds cool. Look forward to hearing how it goes! I have heard about people time decarbing their oil. I forget who had started a thread about that. Made sense. I know a trimmer friend had been eating a little hash every day and started to get effects a little over a month into it. He thought his body was getting used to it, but it was the hash that was naturally decarbing over time. I've heard 60-90 days for optimal decarb.

    A couple months ago, I was getting non-desirable effects from some vape juice I had mixed (concentrate + PG + VG) so I poured it back in a dropper bottle and added equal amount ethanol and started taking it as a tincture. I had not decarbed the wax, it wasn't particularly old, and it hadn't been in the tank much (so it hadn't been warmed up multiple times from firing). It worked fine as a tincture though, plenty strong. I couldn't tell the difference. I'm wondering how much decarb is necessary for tincture if you're not drinking it but ingesting sublingually. Perhaps the decarb is more needed to help with gut metabolization compared to transdermal/sublingual? Perhaps the concentrate was sitting on the shelf at the dispensary for a while? I also buy a 3-4 grams each dispensary visit so this might have been a final gram that had been sitting for a month in my fridge as well. All the time adds up I suppose.

    -----------------

    Anyway, here's a quick pic of a recent tincture I mixed up. It looked pretty, so it felt picture / share worthy. I've settled on a recipe for now: 1:5:5 (concentrate/everclear/pg). The pg takes the burn off the alcohol, and both alcohol and pg aid in faster, more effective, sublingual transfer to the blood stream. I also add a bit of my flavorings that I got for mixing vape juice. This one was strawberry/lime. Tasted great! I keep promising myself to do a test with VG, but this mix is working quite nice for now. A gram of concentrate in tincture lasts me 10-12 days easy, where the same amount mixed for vaping would last me 8 days max. I think I'll try not even decarbing when I get to my last gram this time (perhaps just test with a half gram).


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
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  22. killick

    killick But I like it!

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  23. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    726
    Went with Bulletproof C-8. Started MCT thread. Another inadvertent tincture exposure. Damned Ceramikas tank leaks whenever the fill system is left open. Had withdrawn tincture with syringe and refilled with plain MCT to flush. Figured it would be okay to lap it up. And not properly decarbed.

    Eye-opening energy from a stoney strain. Delayed, like an edible. Licking the spoon can be the best part of experimenting.
     
  24. PPN

    PPN Fleurs&Vapeur

    Messages:
    3,465
    Is a reclaim based tincture doable?

    The OT speaks about 2 methods but didn't speak about coconut oil, is coconut oil needed with the alcohol based tincture?

    I'm thinking about this way of medication to shortened my vaping time in the morning (I need to vape at least 0.8g every morning....but I think I use less than 1g for the rest of the day) and I get a ton of reclaim I don't vape.
     
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  25. randomtoker

    randomtoker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    I think using reclaim would work fine. Convenient really, since you don't need to decarb. You could use 190 proof alcohol to clean your gear, then evap the alcohol down to the volume you want to work with (or just don't use too much alcohol to begin with). Presto, instant alcohol tincture.

    You'd have to guess at dosing though.

    (Coconut oil is just a third option to the ones listed in the OP. You can dissolve decarbed concentrate into coconut oil and administer that by mouth a little at a time. problem with using coconut oil is it hardens and can't really be used in a dropper bottle. That's where alcohol is a little more convenient.)
     
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