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Getting someone to try cannabis rather than sleeping pills

uhranium

Well-Known Member
Hey there,

so I got a friend who's in a position where he easily could afford a high class vape like a crafty and who does smoke maybe less than 5x a year. Now he is telling me that he has sleeping problems for the past 3 months and I try to get him to get a crafty and treat it with it, while he insists of getting sleeping pills because "the health insurance pays for it".

Me telling him sleeping pills ain't not the worlds most least harmful med he told me he never cared for such things and that those pills are more efficient.

Sounds a bit suicidal to me.

What can I do to get him try weed for insomnia rather than "good ole pharmas"?

Thx
 
uhranium,

killick

But I like it!
Sad to say, but if your friend doesn't want to try it there probably isn't much you can do. Just plant the idea that this is safer and has less side effects than the pills, and eventually he'll get tired of living in fog and maybe give it a shot. Health insurance should also cover medicinal plants, but that's a different discussion...
 

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
What can I do to get him try weed for insomnia rather than "good ole pharmas"?
Well I would direct him to some doctors who are at the forefront of sleep research and remedies and have him read/listen to what they have to say. Dr. Parsley was a Navy SEAL and specializes in sleep medicine. In addition to helping the Navy SEALs he also works with law enforcement, emergency medical personnel and others who have disrupted sleep patterns. I have listened to several hours of his lectures and am trying his sleep formula in a bid to get off of Ambien. Dr. Parsley points out in his lectures that pharmaceuticals will make you unconscious, knock you out, but you are not getting the restorative stages of sleep you need when you use these drugs.

His formula is L-Trytophan, GABA (as 4 Amino 3 Phenylbutyric Acid), 5-Hydroxytrytophan, a little Melatonin, lots of Vitamin D3, and Magnesium.

You guys in Europe have Codex Alimetarius so I'm not sure what your access is to Melatonin, Vitamin D3 and other such things but its a better way to go than the pharmaceuticals.

I would have your friend check his vitamin D levels I bet they are low and Doc Parsley's formula has over 4,000 units if I have done the math correctly.

Here is a TED Talk and an interview he did with Robb Wolf on the subject. I know its almost 2 hours long, and the podcast is another hour, but this is how we learn. I would try Vitamin D3 and Melatonin, a small dose like 300 micrograms, at the very least before pharmaceuticals but convincing your friend to actually do the research to learn about sleep and sleep hygiene, and then go to the trouble of obtaining ingredients may be too much for him.

Weed has never helped me sleep, in fact it stimulates my mind and keeps me awake . . . YMMV . . .

Some resources . . .

http://robbwolf.com/2013/04/30/dr-kirk-parsley-episode-181/

http://www.docparsley.com/#!faq/c5cd

http://www.sleepcocktails.com/pages/faq

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Eschient

Giga-Dweebess
Well, I'd not overdramaticize the side effects of sleeping pills. Are there side effects, yes. Can they be terrible, yes. But not enough to qualify your friend as suicidal for taking them as prescribed by his dr.

I mean, I'm a believer. Total convert and I will gladly credit weed for literally saving my life, but the second someone starts polarizing the argument with extremes, they lose all credibility with a lot of people. As a matter of fact, I was someone who finally came around to marijuana use in order to sleep because I was desperate. When I was looking into it there were so many Weed Evangelists spouting infomercial nonsense that it was impossible to take anything seriously. It was a serious put-off and to be honest, if I wasn't in the situation I was in at the time, I probably would have continued to look down my nose at marijuana.

Pharmacology {is that the word I'm looking for?} isn't the devil and weed isn't the ambrosia of the gods marinated in the fountain of life. They both work in a vast range of ways for different people. While "weed saved my life" is a great soundbite and gets people's attention, the whole of it gives fair shares of credit to my pig-headed New England-bred resilience and 20mg of Lexapro a day.

If your friend doesn't want to try marijuana for sleep, that's his choice, let him make it without harassing him over it. He has a right to try and take care of himself as he sees fit - exactly the kind of thing we're fighting for in the legalize movement. When/if it doesn't work or he starts to see side effects, it's ok to suggest vaping as an option - even without weed. He can try vaping chamomile or catnip or something with a vaporizer so he doesn't feel like he's going to be a total burnout {which I'm sure is also on his mind when it comes to the idea of daily vaping to sleep for someone who only does it recreationally a few times a year}. Maybe he'll come around, too.
 

HomeFree

Well-Known Member
you can't make your friend do anything, just plant a seed.

"Boy did I have some great sleep last night".

Weed does not always help me fall to sleep, though more than half the time it does.

I would say it is 100% better than benzos though. I would try just about anything short of a brain transplant before using those little soul suckers.
 

uhranium

Well-Known Member
Well, I'd not overdramaticize the side effects of sleeping pills. Are there side effects, yes. Can they be terrible, yes. But not enough to qualify your friend as suicidal for taking them as prescribed by his dr.
What i meant is that he did not care for any side effects at all, if the pills were more dangerous, he wouldn't care either. That seems suicidal to me.
 
uhranium,

Eschient

Giga-Dweebess
What i meant is that he did not care for any side effects at all, if the pills were more dangerous, he wouldn't care either. That seems suicidal to me.

I live where it's not legal. My weed is completely unregulated. I don't know what's in it, I don't know the dude who grew it or what they did to it, I don't know how potent it is. I don't even know if it's a sativa or indica. I don't know that the guy who sold it to me isn't part of a sting or casing me for robbery or worse.

I'm fully aware about all these potential issues AND know I've got almost no legal backing whatsoever if things go sideways - no cashing in on any class actions for me, if I'm lucky I can plead the 5th! Maybe the plant itself won't kill me directly, but every second this stuff is in my house, I'm rolling the dice on my life.

Then again, maybe it will kill me directly, it hasn't been studied very extensively yet and for all I know combining it with my b-12 supplement is slowly turning my bones into swiss cheese or something. Not like my dr would know to look for it, she doesn't know I use cannabis and even if she did the chances she's up on the latest is slim to none. Assuming there's any studies to be up on.

From this point of view, no sane person would ever touch cannabis for daily medical treatment where there's "other alternatives" that offer far less life-altering hassle. I see things like what happened to @Vitolo and consider the repercussions in my own life and sometimes I think I have to be utterly FUBAR to play with such high, unknown stakes in order to "feel a little better." It's a lot of different dice to roll and it only takes one of them coming up wrong to screw me.

This would point to me being self-destructive and possibly suicidal for engaging in a high-risk practice of self-medicating. My apparent lack of concern for the effects on those around me, disregard for the law and downplay of potentially catastrophic effects could indicate anti-social tenancies, apathy and impaired judgment. The importance I place on marijuana for my day to day functionality could be a clear sign of dependence. Now let's add in my family history of addiction and depression.

So am I being suicidal for using MJ? They seem like pretty serious side effects compared to a lot of the stuff on my prescription bottles.

/devil's advocate :evil:
 

uhranium

Well-Known Member
Sick read, I can't do anything more as he spit out the "I don't want to lose my driving license"-card. Can't argue with that, fkin state.
 
uhranium,

fernand

Well-Known Member
@Eschient's points are indisputable where cannabis is illegal. Where it's "medically tolerated", there are still possible issues, like the long half-life and potential accusations of "impaired driving". Even where it's (finally) completely legal, the driving issue remains. There's something to be said for going with what is sanctioned by those who hold the leash.

But let's take ALL that off the table and just look at the pharmacology. People are naive, and as a result we have a $3Billion/yr market in self-medication with "supplements" that at the very best have unproven value, and at the worst, have unknown long term toxicity. And the trick is this: people keep saying they are not "drugs", they are "natural". Horseshit. ANY substance you ingest to produce effects is a drug. The irony is that herbal supplements are mixtures and therefore much harder to evaluate. Some are more and some are less likely to cause problems in any given person at any given time in combination with specific diet, lifestyle, other drugs. Some people use coke and smack in moderation and are just fine, others go down the tubes on vicodins or 3% beer. There are no "side-effects", it's all a question of which "side effect" you want. It all varies a LOT, with dosage too, even in the same person. I used to tolerate benzos quite well. Now they knock me out and make me amnesic. Cannabis used to reliably make me laugh. Now so-called Sativa strains make me hyper-anxious, which makes me nervous about using it, even though it massively relieves my sciatica. Melatonin at sedative doses is catastrophic for many people with depression.

The point is that each of us is one big biochemical crock-pot, everything is "natural" and everything is "chemical", ask Socrates how he liked the organic herbal hemlock they gave him! So, let's be a little smarter this time. To each his own, whatever works for you, be grateful, kind and compassionate, there's no universal anything, aside from that.
 
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fernand,
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DOOM

Well-Known Member
My whole 1st degree family deals with insomnia, but me. They have been taking prescription sleeping pills for decades. Especially my sister.

I dont have this issue due to my MJ use. I sleep like a baby every night.

Now only if my sis would take my recommendation seriously about vaping herb I even picked out the perfect low dose THC strain for her.
 

fernand

Well-Known Member
Which strain would you vote for?

I'm not sure which one to offer my wife, she's having trouble sleeping of late. She reacts very strongly. The last one she tried was Grand Daddy Purple, and it kept her head working. I'm thinking maybe Purple Kush? that sure works on me. But maybe just some Cherry Kush earlier in the evening? That one was like tubular, mellow and then later turning sleepy.

So, which strain would you vote for, a gentle sleepy one?
 
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fernand,

fernand

Well-Known Member
So am I being suicidal for using MJ? They seem like pretty serious side effects compared to a lot of the stuff on my prescription bottles.
/devil's advocate

Wow, bum trip there! If it does that to you, you probably should avoid it entirely.
- devil's advocate 2 :evil:
 
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fernand,

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Guys, which sleeping pills are we talking? Not all of them are super bad for you. Benzos are though, anyone using these for sleep should absolutely NOT use them regularly - shit is as addictive as any hard drug.

Atypical antipsychotics (ie: Seroquel) are often used off-label for sleep. Stay away from this stuff, it is frightening and can send you to sleep for literal days aside from potential negative psychological and/or neurological side effects. You often wake up feeling too heavy to move.

Doxylamine succinate works reasonably as a less strong sleeping medication but is not so likely to help for serious sleep problems.

I have done the melatonin thing, which did not help at all and costs a fucking fortune. Last time I read up on it melatonin has only been shown to have had some efficacy in treatment of delayed sleep phase syndrome (circadian rhythm abnormality), with little evidence for efficacy in other primary sleep disorders. Short term use of melatonin is generally recognized as safe though. Cannabis is SO much better for sleep than any of these things!

@Eschient I share your skepticism towards the one-eyed anti-pharma attitudes of many stoners; but side effects I experience from cannabis use for sleep every day/night are negligible compared to side effects of the seroquel, temazepam, valium and xanax I was given by doctors to try for the same problem.

Each had significant discontinuation syndromes/withdrawals/dependency issues as well as potentially negative psychological effects (ie: benzos may cause suicidal ideation, antipsychotics may cause very disturbing neurological side effects to name a couple). However, sleep issues are one of the most compelling cases for mmj IME and IMO, given that mmj is so much less debilitating than the alternatives.

Due to mental illnesses which literally did leave me suicidal far too often, I am comfortable using MMJ in a prohibition jurisdiction simply because I may well be led to kill myself without the relief it gives me from depression, anxiety, an eating disorder and insomnia, all of which I have had for a decade or multiple decades. I have two diagnosed illnesses which sadly do often end in suicide or death related to malnutrition or the complications of binging and purging.

I am not taking chances with that shit and if officers came knocking at my door and took my meds; I'd simply ask for a bullet between the eyes.

It might sound extreme; but I'm not going back to a life of being unable to work, constant panic attacks, unable to sleep - revolving between being unable to get out of bed, unmotivated to do anything, starving myself and excessively exercising, taking laxatives/stimulants/whatever I could to make myself lose weight all whilst constantly being preoccupied with body dysmorphia etc: Fuck that!

Medical cannabis literally saved my life and career. As a scientist and being able to articulate my position in terms supported by scholarly research, I refuse to have lay people (cops, politicians or otherwise) tell me that I am doing something wrong by taking my medicine. They're simply out of their element/areas of expertise here!

This is also the first I saw of that @Vitolo post about what happened to him, which near brought me to tears. I can't believe they would treat a man with medical concerns like Vito's in such a way - especially given the good work he does despite illness for other people in drastic medical need. It is heartbreaking.

I wish him all the very best in being able to fight off any legal ramifications and in being able to get medicine and vapes again!

Still to the OP, can you get decent hashes around your parts? I find the best insomnia cure is a quick bowl of bubble hash in the vapman. Quicker and better results than any sleep meds I ever got from a doctor without any nasty side effects (although you may wake up medicated if you have too much lol).
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Trazadone

Thanks you... it means the world to us!
A pleasure brother; I wish I was closer and able to offer help in some meaningful way!

As for trazadone, I've never known anybody here who has been given that. In my country it is not something that is typically prescribed for sleep, nor even for depression (which it is indicated for) AFAIK. Not sure about the side effects on that one!
 

fernand

Well-Known Member
It's a mixed sedative anti-psychotic, with a very wide range of effects, including some antidepressive activity. It makes you sleepy the way phenothiazines, tricyclics like amitriptyline, and antihistamines like diphenhydramine (that you find in most overthe counter sleep aids) do. So it's not pleasant enough to cause "abuse". But it's not likely to cause big problems either.
 
fernand,

fernand

Well-Known Member
There was a recent report about a strong correlation between long term use of anticholinergics and dementia (including Alzheimers). A lot of over the counter sleep meds contain antihistamines that have an anticholinergic element to their actions. It happens that Trazodone does not. It's got some peculiar infrequent side effects, but it's not a terrible drug.

OF COURSE it's a popular one now, since the benzos and relatives have all turned out to be quite, shall we say, enchanting, confusing and dependence-producing. All the old tried and true hypnotics have been banned.

I remember when a new hypnotic hit the market in the late 1960s. The ads in the medical journals and the package inserts said it carried no risk of dependence and no side effects. It was called Methaqualone, Quaalude.
 
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