Enail controller ?'s(design,quality,function,etc..)

jojo monkey

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@YabbaDABBAdo What about I and D?

PID_Compensation_Animated.gif
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
@YabbaDABBAdo Man I'd be looking into the heater coil and controller as I've never had such temp drops myself after paying more attention. I use a d-nail 1.2 controller and standard 120v flat coil for reference.

I notice you asking about the Ligers and wanted to provide this warning: Whatever you do, do not go and purchase a Liger thinking it will give you an easier time in assembly and troubleshooting :lol:

Don't get me wrong, I like the liger (I use it most everyday!), it has it's niches but seriously man, you're asking for trouble if you're already having difficulties getting the right results on the d-nail SiC halo, which IME is just about the most easy to assemble/use enail on the market. Obviously, it is pretty clear at this point that something weird is happening with your coil or controller. The SiC halo is a very simple design and there is really little that can go wrong there in setup so while you troubleshoot the issues, you have one of the best possible nails already for diagnostic purposes!

The Liger assembly will require tools, stretching/reshaping of coils, tightening various locking nuts with plyers, rinsing and repeating until you get your coil placement right so that it heats efficiently and doesn't counterbalance the rig - also getting bucket placement right so that it is at the appropriate angle.

Translation: There's much more that can fuck up your end results when you put together a Liger and when it seems like you've got unresolved foibles with your controller/coil, introducing new confusing variables is not going to make life easier for you ;)

Not to say a Liger wouldn't suit you for one of the abovementioned niches where it shines, I'm more suggesting that you get this controller/coil thing figured out first ;) :2c:
 

YabbaDABBAdo

Well-Known Member
@YabbaDABBAdo Man I'd be looking into the heater coil and controller as I've never had such temp drops myself after paying more attention. I use a d-nail 1.2 controller and standard 120v flat coil for reference.

I notice you asking about the Ligers and wanted to provide this warning: Whatever you do, do not go and purchase a Liger thinking it will give you an easier time in assembly and troubleshooting :lol:

Don't get me wrong, I like the liger (I use it most everyday!), it has it's niches but seriously man, you're asking for trouble if you're already having difficulties getting the right results on the d-nail SiC halo, which IME is just about the most easy to assemble/use enail on the market. Obviously, it is pretty clear at this point that something weird is happening with your coil or controller. The SiC halo is a very simple design and there is really little that can go wrong there in setup so while you troubleshoot the issues, you have one of the best possible nails already for diagnostic purposes!

The Liger assembly will require tools, stretching/reshaping of coils, tightening various locking nuts with plyers, rinsing and repeating until you get your coil placement right so that it heats efficiently and doesn't counterbalance the rig - also getting bucket placement right so that it is at the appropriate angle.

Translation: There's much more that can fuck up your end results when you put together a Liger and when it seems like you've got unresolved foibles with your controller/coil, introducing new confusing variables is not going to make life easier for you ;)

Not to say a Liger wouldn't suit you for one of the abovementioned niches where it shines, I'm more suggesting that you get this controller/coil thing figured out first ;) :2c:

Oh I wasn't going to buy the liger until I got my unit fixed or at least dialed in better it was more of a consideration , inquiry , i also was just thinking that maybe the liger with the heat shield would work better and very curious since they seem to be very popular.

I love my halo and sapphire insert especially.

I honestly kinda gave up and figured The temperature drop is due to SiC not retaining heat as much as titanium due to my inquiries to D-nail and phone call to Auber who still cannot help me after multiple calls they still suggested I find someone on here with more experience but I am still getting drops of 25° to 30° at 640° controller temp no matter what size dab that I do no matter what temperature and also I have had a problem with it stalling out about 50° Below set temperature unltill I raise the "p" value as auber told me and it did sable out

I'm not sure if I should get a new coil or send it back
 
YabbaDABBAdo,

jojo monkey

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@YabbaDABBAdo

Does it slowly go down 25f and sit there? When it goes back up does it overshoot at all?

Neat read:
http://www.controleng.com/search/se...ing-derivative-in-pid-control/4ea87c406e.html

Personally, as a first (and perhaps last) controller/coil I would strongly recommend the Auber RDK-200 or RDK-300. They are from an American instrument company in GA (they may be made elsewhere

The 100/200 shares codes and a password with my chinese jld612. Chinese guts at a minimum.
 
jojo monkey,
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herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Oh I wasn't going to buy the liger until I got my unit fixed or at least dialed in better it was more of a consideration , inquiry , i also was just thinking that maybe the liger with the heat shield would work better and very curious since they seem to be very popular.

I love my halo and sapphire insert especially.

I honestly kinda gave up and figured The temperature drop is due to SiC not retaining heat as much as titanium due to my inquiries to D-nail and phone call to Auber who still cannot help me after multiple calls they still suggested I find someone on here with more experience but I am still getting drops of 25° to 30° at 640° controller temp no matter what size dab that I do no matter what temperature and also I have had a problem with it stalling out about 50° Below set temperature unltill I raise the "p" value as auber told me and it did sable out

I'm not sure if I should get a new coil or send it back
I would definitely try and find a friend who has another coil and controller (WITH THE SAME PIN ARRANGEMENTS - CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!). Try to use your coil and SiC halo with their controller first and see if you get results. If the same issue occurs, try your friend's coil with their controller on your SiC halo and see how that goes. If all goes well there, then try using your friend's coil with your controller. This will help isolate which is the problem component between coil and controller :)

D-nail will not be able to help you at all since I understand that none of the electronics that you are using are their own products. All of us should be mindful that d-nail will only be able to give you the best possible customer support in great technical detail if you are using their products. There'll be much more DIY troubleshooting required of you if you go off-brand for your controller/coil (which is no problem for many of us, but definitely something to keep in mind :) ).
 
herbivore21,

YabbaDABBAdo

Well-Known Member
YabbaDABBAdo,

YabbaDABBAdo

Well-Known Member
I would definitely try and find a friend who has another coil and controller (WITH THE SAME PIN ARRANGEMENTS - CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!). Try to use your coil and SiC halo with their controller first and see if you get results. If the same issue occurs, try your friend's coil with their controller on your SiC halo and see how that goes. If all goes well there, then try using your friend's coil with your controller. This will help isolate which is the problem component between coil and controller :)

D-nail will not be able to help you at all since I understand that none of the electronics that you are using are their own products. All of us should be mindful that d-nail will only be able to give you the best possible customer support in great technical detail if you are using their products. There'll be much more DIY troubleshooting required of you if you go off-brand for your controller/coil (which is no problem for many of us, but definitely something to keep in mind :) ).

There in lies my problem I know no one around here that has a Danil or Auber (they both have he Same pin arrangements) and honestly I don't have anyone that has an enail except for some cheap Chinese kind and the people I don't trust

I'm honestly don't know what to do but return the whole unit and then go without a controller for who know how long
 
YabbaDABBAdo,

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
There in lies my problem I know no one around here that has a Danil or Auber (they both have he Same pin arrangements) and honestly I don't have anyone that has an enail except for some cheap Chinese kind and the people I don't trust

I'm honestly don't know what to do but return the whole unit and then go without a controller for who know how long
Damn, that is a shame brother but I can fully empathise, so many of us are no doubt in similar scenarios.

Sadly I believe you may end up having no choice but to return both the controller and coil and try again :(

You could of course buy another coil from d-nail first and test that out. Remember that coils are items that have a limited lifespan and will invariably have to be replaced over time, so you are not wasting money by owning more than one of them :) If you can use another coil and successfully isolate the problem, then you could simply get auber to replace the first coil for you which could be used once the d-nail coil dies :)
 
herbivore21,

YabbaDABBAdo

Well-Known Member
@YabbaDABBAdo

Does it slowly go down 25f and sit there? When it goes back up does it overshoot at all?

Neat read:
http://www.controleng.com/search/se...ing-derivative-in-pid-control/4ea87c406e.html



The 100/200 shares codes and a password with my chinese jld612. Chinese guts at a minimum.

Great article but this is my first enail and time dealing with a pid some of it makes sense and I understand but some I have no clue what it means
Thanks I will continue to re read it to try to lean
 
YabbaDABBAdo,

YabbaDABBAdo

Well-Known Member
Damn, that is a shame brother but I can fully empathise, so many of us are no doubt in similar scenarios.

Sadly I believe you may end up having no choice but to return both the controller and coil and try again :(

You could of course buy another coil from d-nail first and test that out. Remember that coils are items that have a limited lifespan and will invariably have to be replaced over time, so you are not wasting money by owning more than one of them :) If you can use another coil and successfully isolate the problem, then you could simply get auber to replace the first coil for you which could be used once the d-nail coil dies :)

I really don't know what to do if I should keep contacting arbor they seem to getting annoyed by me and I've called them honestly three or four times now and they keep saying the same exact thing it's just the difference of the temperature of material hitting the dish and since I am not using titanium it disperses quicker so I don't know what to think anymore
 
YabbaDABBAdo,

mutten840

Well-Known Member
@YabbaDABBAdo I just sent you a message about getting this sorted =)

Also this is the info I used to build my very own home brew setup. They are pretty damn easy and require very little soldering

Here is the info I acquired in making mine:

Parts for dual controller Enail:

2 X Omron PID E5CC-QX2ASM (There are 800 and 880 versions on Ebay. I got 2 of the 880 version from China for 90.00 total. The main thing is the QX part as I used a seperate SSR to keep the temp tighter)
2 X 5 pin female XLR plugs (I got these from Ebay and this was the only part that I had to Solder wires to. It was not that in the end and I covered them with Shrink tubing to make them look sexy)
2 X LED Power buttons ( Iended up not adding these, but bought them for when I find the right case)
2 X Rocker switch/Power socket 3Pin (I found these on Amazon and they had the rocker switch, Fuse, and plug all in one)
2 X Solid state Relay 40A
Case big enough to hold all the above, but also still look sexy

I used 18 AWG stranded wire for everything LINK

Wiring diagram I used for mine: https://i.imgur.com/69nqrVr.jpg (You will need to snap a picture of the bottom of the PID so you know where the connections go. The diagram only shows 10 connections. But the QX model has 12)

Info on Omron PIDs:
There are 3 different types of e5cc. The RX that has just a mechanical relay output, The QX that has a DC out for controlling a SSR, and the CX(cant be used) which adjusts just a current output.

You can use either the RX like I did with no SSR by wiring AC HOT to PID pin1 and PID pin2 goes to AC HOT on the XLR. Neutral and Ground on the XLR go directly to the incoming AC.

Or you can use the QX if you have a compatible SSR (12V, 21mA max). PID pin1 is DC+ and pin2 is DC- to feed the input on the SSR.

Documentation: http://www.supertron.com.sg/images/e5cc-800-wire.jpg


Omron E5CC controller settings:

Your settings should be as follows

Hold down 1st button for 4 seconds
- Press 2nd button to cycle through
- Use up and down arrows to select value

CN-t = 5
d-U = F
SL-H = 1300
SL-L = -200
CNTL = Pid
S-HC = Stnd
St = ON
CP = 2
GREV = GR-R
ALt1 = 2
ALH1 = 0.2
ALt2 = 2
ALH2 = 0.3

Hold Down 1st button for 3 seconds to exit/save

From Main screen
Press 2nd button to see option

R-5 = RUN
AL-1 = 0
AL-2 = 0

From Main Screen
Press 1st button
At = ON (setting will go back to off when you turn the unit off, this is okay because it is part of the calibration process, it only needs to calibrate once)
 
mutten840,

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
I really don't know what to do if I should keep contacting arbor they seem to getting annoyed by me and I've called them honestly three or four times now and they keep saying the same exact thing it's just the difference of the temperature of material hitting the dish and since I am not using titanium it disperses quicker so I don't know what to think anymore
Bro SiC IME holds heat for much longer than titanium IME when torching equivalent sized/shaped piece of each substance and waiting for them to cool down.

Thermal conductivity of SiC is much, much greater than that of the high purity grades of titanium (which we use in vaporizing). It should more readily receive the heat off the coil than titanium (and also conduct more heat into the dab when applied)!!! SiC does also have a much higher specific heat than titanium and this means that the amount of heat energy that is required to heat up the same mass of SiC vs titanium is also greater. Of course, once the SiC gets hot, IME as above it tends to stay hot for longer than titanium, even if you stop transferring additional heat into the surface.

We don't need to crunch all of those numbers to realize that this problem is not observed by others using the same configuration (nor is it observed in my case, when using an older d-nail controller which was purchased long before any SiC nails existed! If SiC as a material changed the temp drop so much, why did I never observe that?). In other words, why doesn't the same problem occur universally if this is caused by an immutable property of SiC? :2c:
 
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herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Ok you make some great points I was going by what auber was telling me
Definitely brother, I understand that this is what Auber said to you and this is why I raised it - you should definitely come back to them with what I have mentioned about others using the same configuration without the same problem. If you haven't already, ask around here to find other folks who have SiC with Auber coils/controllers and see what their experiences are. I am sure there'll be plenty of folks with this setup who can help. If this problem has only happened to you and your SiC halo is properly assembled and not visibly damaged/flawed, then IMO they should be offering your replacements to resolve the issue rather than continually trying to explain it as 'normal functioning due to your nail material'. You have gone well above and beyond what I would expect of a customer when troubleshooting!

Right now what I would do in your position is work on conclusively showing them that this is an isolated issue and others with the same configuration do not experience it. If you can establish this, this provides a strong argument for replacement/refund of either or both of the items, especially if you initially reported the issue within any relevant DOA warranty period :peace:
 
herbivore21,

YabbaDABBAdo

Well-Known Member
ok so I'm not one to bash or complain on a fourm or bring up controversy I try to be as levelheaded as possible but right now I am totally frustrated with aubers help they continue to say it's the temperature of the material being placed on the nail and now they go into telling me that the sensor on the coil is not on the tip it is moved back a little bit so it will not give an accurate reading and that is another reason why the temperature is fluctuation so much and also not using their type of nail. They insist the controller is not defective since it brings it to set temperature and holds there. I asked for them to send me a new coil as their website say the coil it warranted for 6 months for defects and they said they could not due that the coils ARENT warranted. They did offer to full refund but then I will be without a controller for how knows how long till I can buy a new one NOT AUBER I guess, but the only other one that even I'm even interested in is the Hex (if only I went with it to begin with :mad:)
 

Baron23

Well-Known Member
ok so I'm not one to bash or complain on a fourm or bring up controversy I try to be as levelheaded as possible but right now I am totally frustrated with aubers help they continue to say it's the temperature of the material being placed on the nail and now they go into telling me that the sensor on the coil is not on the tip it is moved back a little bit so it will not give an accurate reading and that is another reason why the temperature is fluctuation so much and also not using their type of nail. They insist the controller is not defective since it brings it to set temperature and holds there. I asked for them to send me a new coil as their website say the coil it warranted for 6 months for defects and they said they could not due that the coils ARENT warranted. They did offer to full refund but then I will be without a controller for how knows how long till I can buy a new one NOT AUBER I guess, but the only other one that even I'm even interested in is the Hex (if only I went with it to begin with :mad:)
If you think the Auber experience has been confusing, wait until you buy as a VERY early adopter from a true start up. I plan to get a HexNail at some point after a couple of software releases and when its documented. At least Auber provides good (the best?) documentation.

I was chatting with @mutten840 about this and both of us own RDK-300's. Neither of us have touch any PID setting on them at all with the exception of turning off the auto-shut down.

I run mine with an Auber 20mm cylinder coil and it works just fine with factory default settings.

Also, I think Auber is full of it about the SIC. Look, the Auber has two numbers it displays, set point which you enter as the desire "temp" and "actual" temp which is nothing of the sort, well, its the actual temperature somewhere but certainly isn't the temp on the dab surface. Its is merely the temp calculated from the K type thermocouple.

With all of the Ti that we heat up to a stable, heat soaked temp, its very, very hard for me to believe that the thermal coefficient of SiC is somehow to blame here. That would be about the last thing I would suspect. And given @herbivore21 input on the thermal coefficient of SiC, I believe your insert material cannot be your problem.

As to where the TC is in a hot runner coil...wow, if they say theirs is in the middle of the coil, so be it. But a quick google search returns some interesting articles on the subject, but be a bit cautious because enails are not the only purpose for these devices! LOL Matter of fact, we are probably just a pimple on the ass of the coil industry. To me, the coils we use are very much like the mold coils shown by some of these manf. If you want to educate yourself more on this stuff, peruse some of this data.

This is the general search return
https://www.google.com/search?q=where+is+the+thermocouple+on+a+hot+runner+coil&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
THIS is a video of the TC position one a coil very much like what we use.
https://www.dme.net/node/489

Both @mutten840 and I agreed that if it was one of us, we would return the Auber to factory default settings and really, really, really look at coil fit. Flat coil should cover the area where it is mounted and be flat and physically in contact with the Ti Liger across the coil.

I would also pursue trying another coil and see what happens. I know that's been suggested and I know you don't have anybody in your immediate area, but perhaps someone would lend you an well used D-nail coil (eh, @mutten840 , do you still have any left around).

You will get a temp drop. I just never noticed but I run my cylinder coiled V2.0 at 590 generally and until you brought this up I can't say I ever looked at temp drop. Yes, there will be a temp drop. You are dropping relatively cool substance on to a hot surface, you have cooling from evaporation (boiling off the concentrate) as well as convective cooling as you suck in ambient air through your Liger and rig. You WILL have a temp drop. How much is acceptable, not sure. As it drops, your Auber (and any PID controller) will kick into gear and push energy into the coil to try to recover set point temp as measured at the TC.

So, let's look at this functionally. Temp drop or not, does the Liger adequately boil off your dab? Mine does when starting at 590 and so I don't really care about a short term temp drop as long as I get what I want. Are you getting good hits from your dabs or not?

Sorry, my friend....but I'm not sure if you will find much more info on Auber PID settings unless we just happen to come across a good control engineer.

Cheers
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
ok so I'm not one to bash or complain on a fourm or bring up controversy I try to be as levelheaded as possible but right now I am totally frustrated with aubers help they continue to say it's the temperature of the material being placed on the nail and now they go into telling me that the sensor on the coil is not on the tip it is moved back a little bit so it will not give an accurate reading and that is another reason why the temperature is fluctuation so much and also not using their type of nail. They insist the controller is not defective since it brings it to set temperature and holds there. I asked for them to send me a new coil as their website say the coil it warranted for 6 months for defects and they said they could not due that the coils ARENT warranted. They did offer to full refund but then I will be without a controller for how knows how long till I can buy a new one NOT AUBER I guess, but the only other one that even I'm even interested in is the Hex (if only I went with it to begin with :mad:)
Sadly this is not the first negative experience I've heard of with Auber. Given you're now down to a 15-20f drop, that is not necessarily excessive and if you are getting full vaporization in a reasonable timeframe, then this should be no problem.

However, if you are not getting full enough vaporization and it takes a long time to finish a small dab, then I suggest taking them up on the full refund and going elsewhere.

Regardless, it does seem like they have not been especially helpful to you since it seems that it took them a while to offer to do anything and clearly recalibrating the unit has greatly assisted. I can't believe they aren't asking for your help passing on the relevant values to make SiC work with their controllers and giving your something for your troubles :2c:

I can't believe they'd not support SiC nails, which must be the most common kind of enail out there aside from the 2014 throwback quartz bangers :lol: and the best choice for most folks that don't have the large sums of cash required for sapphire!

@Baron23 brother we are as usual mostly agreed (especially on the 'there will always be a temp drop' comment - and in my view, 15-20f is not unreasonable anymore, IMO calibration fixed the issue) on the above except you seem to be stuck on a Liger trip, remember we're talking about the d-nail SiC halo which absolutely does not require any coil fucking around or tightening. If the coil is not tight up against the dish, then your dish is gonna be loose and the whole thing will be likely to fall apart. D-nail SiC halo assembly is basically fool proof compared to Liger assembly and this is not anything worth considering in this case.
 
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Baron23

Well-Known Member
Sadly this is not the first negative experience I've heard of with Auber. Given you're now down to a 15-20f drop, that is not necessarily excessive and if you are getting full vaporization in a reasonable timeframe, then this should be no problem.

However, if you are not getting full enough vaporization and it takes a long time to finish a small dab, then I suggest taking them up on the full refund and going elsewhere.

Regardless, it does seem like they have not been especially helpful to you since it seems that it took them a while to offer to do anything and clearly recalibrating the unit has greatly assisted. I can't believe they aren't asking for your help passing on the relevant values to make SiC work with their controllers and giving your something for your troubles :2c:

I can't believe they'd not support SiC nails, which must be the most common kind of enail out there aside from the 2014 throwback quartz bangers :lol: and the best choice for most folks that don't have the large sums of cash required for sapphire!

@Baron23 brother we are as usual mostly agreed (especially on the 'there will always be a temp drop' comment - and in my view, 15-20f is not unreasonable anymore, IMO calibration fixed the issue) on the above except you seem to be stuck on a Liger trip, remember we're talking about the d-nail SiC halo which absolutely does not require any coil fucking around or tightening. If the coil is not tight up against the dish, then your dish is gonna be loose and the whole thing will be likely to fall apart. D-nail SiC halo assembly is basically fool proof compared to Liger assembly and this is not anything worth considering in this case.
Oh, shit, shit, shit...I forgot, he's using a D-nail halo and not a Liger. Well, toss that content out the window! haha

Forgive me, I'm getting old! LOL
 

YabbaDABBAdo

Well-Known Member
OK guys so my fitment from my dish to coil is completely flush there is no gap either way I filp my coil and my coil is lined up perfectly and evenly as possible I reset my settings to stock and I am getting a 30° drop in temperature no matter what size hit so I am stumped now maybe it is the coil I have no clue all this is new to me but I'm learning everything at a rapid rate and all of your guys help is greatly appreciated and I can no try thank you enough
I'm getting decent hits but it definitely get weaker as the hit continues even if there is a little bit of residue enough to use a qtip
at a temperature of 640° all the time through all of this
 
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YabbaDABBAdo,

Baron23

Well-Known Member
OK guys so my fitment from my dish to coil is completely flush there is no gap either way I filp my coil and my coil is lined up perfectly and evenly as possible I reset my settings to stock and I am getting a 30° drop in temperature no matter what size hit so I am stumped now maybe it is the coil I have no clue all this is new to me but I'm learning everything at a rapid rate and all of your guys help is greatly appreciated and I can no try thank you enough
I'm getting decent hits but it definitely get weaker as the hit continues even if there is a little bit of residue enough to use a qtip
at a temperature of 640° all the time through all of this
I'm not a PID or temp control logic expert at all and I'm also kind of stumped. I don't drop 30 degrees. Maybe 15-20?

But, as far getting residue up on the qtip....is this more than with other enails (if you have that experience?). I find differing amounts of residue depends to large extent on the concentrate. That is, in particular, wax with all of the lipids/stuff still in has a lot of residue to be cleaned up. Even really clean and dewaxed shatter still leaves residue so that in and of itself is not an indicator that you haven't effectively finished your dab.

I'm stumped. Just don't know what to offer at this point.

Unlike @herbivore21 , this is the first I personally have heard of someone having issues with an Auber 300 and it not just working great out of the box.
 
Baron23,
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