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Ejuice mixes (VG/PG) safety (Journal Article Inside)

Discussion in 'Concentrates' started by herbivore21, Jul 28, 2016.

  1. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    Your point about the application of heat changing the equation for some of these substances seems especially valid. Once you've taken a breath, feel free to tear down their peg information:

    3. PEG or polyethylene glycol
    • Glycols are alcohols, not oils. The non-toxic types such as PEG have no inhalation concerns.
    • PEG is said to present flavors better than any other base liquid.
    • It is the least common carrier liquid.
    • It can be made in many different formulations, the one used for e-liquid is called PEG400.
    • This formulation appears to be chosen as it has the right viscosity, as PEG can be thinner, thicker, or even in the form of a wax or powder.
    • As far as we know there is little research on inhalation but it cannot be toxic as it is used in foods and medicines. For example it is used as the main ingredient in a very large number of laxatives, where it is supplied in the form of a powder, with electrolytes, for mixing to a drink that has a safe laxative effect.
    • Because it handles flavors so well it is used by several of the major cartomizer-only (2-piece ecig) firms that mainly sell to first-time buyers, as it works well in cartos.
    • We think it comprises 1% or less of bottled eliquid sales volume but it is far higher in the pre-filled carto market - perhaps as much as 33%.
    • PEG is the most likely of all the three base materials to be contaminated with DEG as the manufacturing process can be carried out using the same equipment, so there is a risk of cross-contamination.
    The part about deg was wtf for me so...

    :o DEG
    Diethylene glycol is one of the many glycols, and toxic to humans and animals. It is a poison that kills by damaging the liver and kidneys among other effects. It is similar to PG and PEG in appearance, taste and characteristics, and it is produced in the same way from similar raw materials and as a by-product of similar manufacturing processes, although PEG seems especially implicated. It is therefore likely to be found in any materials of this type due to poor manufacturing controls or cross-contamination - for example, using drums for PEG400 that previously contained DEG. For this reason it is the main contaminant that should be tested for.

    :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
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  2. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

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    468
    For PEG, see the alarming research cited in this thread. In addition to contamination concerns, it appears to produce far greater levels of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde than VG, PG or MCT.

    Logical. Any adulterant will make the end product more risky. Point is that there is no line between safe and unsafe, there's a gradient. "The dose makes the poison" is the foundation of pharmacology and toxicology for good reason. And the only reliable way to determine that dose is through human experience. Everything else is judgement. People will reasonably reach different conclusions based on limited pre-clinical studies.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
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  3. Nesta

    Nesta Well-Known Member

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    I know almost nothing about vape pens, I've never used one because I don't trust their safety. So I'm curious @herbivore21, when you refer to 'efficiently heating & inhaling cannabis actives in safe ways', are you talking about vape pens? Or regular, well made vaporizers? Pens do seem convenient (& portable) so I'd like to know if there are any that are unquestionably safe.
     
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  4. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    This is not true. The best way to determine that dose, as used by regulators around the world is controlled, peer reviewed scientific research. Anecdotes (personal, subjective biographical accounts of individual human experiences) are by definition not going to live up to scientific standards of reliability. In science, reliability means the extent to which a claim can be repeated in controlled circumstances and produce the same results. An anecdote is by definition a personal story that has been subjectively observed by that individual, not systematically repeated among many different individuals with repeatable results. :2c:

    The article I quoted above highlights that the dose of the compounds in question is beyond levels regarded as safe for human consumption.

    As a scientist who does research with human subjects, let me tell you that it would be very difficult to be approved to carry out a clinical study that administers substances in a way that has been already shown to produce compounds that are known to be unsafe to human subjects. Ethics committees are not into that shit at all! Don't necessarily hold your breath for this research :2c: The regulatory environment for scientific research is brutal bro.

    Besides, we already have existing research to tell us that we don't want to be consuming the abovementioned degradation byproducts, which have been shown to be created by ecig carts with the abovementioned solvents. The evidence is already there.

    Frankly, I don't really trust most vape pens either. I should say that from what I know of the Puffco+ (I have thoroughly quizzed Puffco on the design and materials), it seems the safest option for a pen so far. Still isn't cut out for use as a daily driver for medical users with even moderate dosage needs. Pens just don't do well for moderate to high frequency/dose use scenarios for my needs. The Puffco+ is the best LAYG pen IME though, since it include the dabber in the pen in a way that works and makes loading on the go infinitely easier than most other pens that I've used. The airflow hole placement is fucking terrible though.

    Your position is well considered brother. Pens aren't the best option for now. I tend to prefer known safe portable flower vapes for concentrate use with an SS concentrate pad (Vapcap M is a good cheap starting point that fits the bill - of course one must not overheat the load or risk emerges). I more frequently consume my meds with a sapphire enail than anything else though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  5. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

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    468
    Sorry, wasn't clear. By human experience, referring to clinical, epidemiology and post-marketing studies. This is the gold standard of regulators, but it's not always available. With pre-clinical studies, regulators factor in large precautionary margins of error. Most often, another zero is added in front of the observed effect level for each source of uncertainty - animal-human extrapolation, susceptible sub-populations, etc.

    That remains to be seen. In its report, Scientific Standards for Studies on Modified Risk Tobacco Products, the Institute of Medicine concluded that research with tobacco users is ethically permissible as long as the subjects' exposure is less than that from their current tobacco use and state-of-the-science cessation methods are made available upon study completion. Pre-clinical studies are viewed as indicating whether clinical studies are warranted. The only MRTP application reviewed so far (Swedish Match snus) included thousands of pages of human studies conducted over 40 years. (The application was ultimately denied, BTW)
     
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  6. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    What you've said here illustrates my point man. This is not an easy kind of study to have approved at all, let alone with a statistically robust sample of people and most importantly, cannot be carried out using a control group who are not current smokers/ecig users. It is very difficult to produce large scale results with adequate controls, representative samples and the corresponding reliability and extrapolative usefulness that comes from these kinds of studies in the current regulatory environment.

    Most crucially, the above guidelines that you quote do not consider these compounds in cannabis use scenarios, this is solely relating to cigarettes, which are known to be deadly.

    Those guidelines, even if we extrapolated their spirit and applied them to cannabis scenarios means that clinical studies considering ejuices for cannabis users would not be considered ethically permissible if the cannabis user does not already use ejuice products with their cannabis. This means that we could not control such a study by considering the clinical effects of ejuices on people who have never consumed them before. This means that meaningful clinical trials that would help us understand, control and isolate the relevant variables for safety of these solvents for cannabis users would not be likely to be approved by the relevant ethics body.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  7. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    Note that the emphasis on Cannabis is yours only. This forum is about vaporization in general, and not specifically about the Plant. Although they are a minority, we have our fair share of users vaporizing other dry herbs (including tobacco) and a lot more than also use e-cigs with or without nicotine.
     
  8. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

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    468
    Just considering tobacco, it's unclear that IOM's approach could be applied to e-cigs. Some of the same harmful and potentially harmful constituents are present in both combusted and e-cigs, but if there are additional substances of concern unique to e-cigs, then the ethics of human research become questionable. The OP's question assumes that the results of pre-clinical studies with tobacco e-liquid are relevant to cannabis e-liquid.
     
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  9. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Apologies, didn't see this message above. However, the formaldehyde findings are relating to research that I have never referred to, nor cited at all in my discussion of this topic, as such, most of your above quoted post has little relevance to what I've said here.

    The study that I referred to highlighted that the harmful substances were present in noteworthy quantities in all usage scenarios, at all voltages, whether single or dual coil (but that higher voltages and less coil surface area increased levels of the offending compounds). Also all of us who do an undergrad science degree are taught to look for recent findings, rather than older studies when looking for answers to scientific questions like these. The reason is very simple: Old research is frequently updated with new findings.

    The OP can best clarify whether this question was regarding use of PG/VG with cannabis or otherwise. Not you or I. I am not here to argue about that in any case :peace:

    I was given to understand that this was first and foremost, a forum about cannabis vaporization. If others may want to discuss something else, no problem and have at it - however, I have no interest nor comments to add on the use of other substances beyond what I've already said above - all I was meaning to clarify in my above post is that my comments only pertain to cannabis, which is surely a fair and reasonable position? :peace:
    That's a good observation brother, these considerations are why scientific studies are so complicated to actually get approved and completed. Add to that that every ethics committee has different people with different personal quirks and interests and you can imagine just how many contentions are raised when ethics approval is being sought by a researcher!

    There are just so many moving parts when the job (science) demands that we drill down into all of the details!
     
  10. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge Retailer

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    Fantastic...thanks! Neither that thread nor the study you linked showed up in any of my searches. I might see if the mods think these two threads should be merged...I don't want your previously posted info to fall to the back as it's too important, imo, and exactly what I was looking for.

    As to e-cigs vs cannabis use, far be it from me to limit this discussion. My personal interest is solely in cannabis use, but my concern for the industry and vapers goes further than that.

    I've only been going to industry shows for two years now, but the cbd peddlers are growing in numbers and those products look to be something that could introduce vaping to a lot of new people who are unsuspecting of the possible PG and VG dangers. Two years ago they were all using PG (one even added nicotine to his mix) except for one vendor using VG. Last week most of them had moved to VG already. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the draw to PG is bigger clouds. Every time I vape with VG the clouds are smaller and dissipate quickly compared to PG.

    For cannabis purposes, I'm drawn to the convenience of the prefilled carts, but can't stand the taste of the medium and I know they are PG and probably not good for me. But I fear we are the few and most won't or don't care. I've had two really good conversations with industry players I thought a lot of. One said he didn't know why we were cutting with PG and VG anyhow, since the CBD oil is viscous enough to vaporize...but can that be said of pure cannabis extracts? Or could we cut it with something better for us that can be used with the same convenience of prefilled carts? The other conversation led to me starting this search and thread...this manufacturer wanted to produce something for concentrate vaping on the go, but had the good conscience to want to find out if heating these concentrates produces harmful chemicals first. He actually didn't want to make a product the market would want until he was sure it would be safe, even though everyone else is rushing to do the very same thing. Needless to say, I was impressed to find someone like this at the show...

    So the next logical step in that direction would be studying what happens to our pure extracts when heated to the needed boiling points. I truly doubt we have anyone testing that out, as we are only just now getting this kind of testing on e-cig components. Some day maybe, but in the meantime I would greatly value your opinion on that, @herbivore21 .
     
  11. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

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    468
    It's the other way around. VG produces bigger clouds. PG, better flavor (supposedly).

    Other potential thinning agents are medium-chain triglycerides (MCT) and terpenes. Another :worms:. Wary of proprietary terpene mixes - would want to know all ingredients. Curious about carts. Concentrate doesn't dissolve well in VG, but that might not matter so much with carts.
     
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  12. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    No problem man! I have noticed that a lot of people have been rehashing this topic on FC lately without having seen the now-OP of this thread and ensuing discussion. I suspect that content had fallen to the back of the forum topic list and few were noticing it lately as a result. Hopefully people will more easily find this info now :)


    I am glad that I had understood this correctly! If others with ecigs can find a healthier alternative using this advice, then even better!

    Actually as my buddy @Accept said above, these are not quite the reasons. To your comments about CBD products, I shudder at the thought of CBD vendors selling CBD, which is predominately sought by medical patients mixed with these compounds with known health risks. I really hope that we see the cannabis industry move right away from these solvents altogether. It only serves to make the industry less credible to patients who are considering cannabis medicine. Too many people are tempted by these kinds of tank ejuice setups because they are very straight forward to use and require less frequent reloading.

    I've known a number of manufacturers personally who have warned me against ejuice consumption, I must give credit to Gary (@THC SCIENTIFIC) for recommending that I avoid ejuices when I had considered them years ago before I'd seen the above literature (hell, some of that literature didn't exist back then!).

    I have not really explored ways of getting cannabis medicine into these tank style carts for a simple reason - they are not gonna work with full melt, and if it ain't full melt, I don't usually consume it! I am very interested to see the upcoming collaboration between Bubbleman and w9, as this is rumored to resolve this problem! I long for the day when I can stuff a quarter gram of full melt into a pen and take large rips on that all day with temp control using tasty, safe materials!

    Distillates are the current way to get cannabis resin to work in ecig style pens with minimal/no solvents added. Vendors are already doing this with success. I still prefer to avoid ecig style pens even in this case, since I prefer whole resin glands and higher quality vapes made from more inert materials (especially high end e-nails obviously).

    This research will not be forthcoming for quite some time. We need the regulatory environment to change in the US before research is going to be approved to investigate these kinds of questions. We may or may not see research like this coming from other countries with more favorable regulation first.

    There is research that considers what happens to some of the individual compounds found in cannabis resin when we boil them (some terps can become other kinds of terps, some cannabinoids can become other kinds of cannabinoids, shit goes crazy when you get it hot enough!). However, cannabis resin is a complex, if not always consistent mixture. It would be very difficult to speculate on how this will behave vs the sum of the parts found within the resin so until we get controlled independent scientific studies that consider whole resin being boiled in the ways that we would do, there is just not enough data to go by for me to speculate at the moment.
     
  13. THC SCIENTIFIC

    THC SCIENTIFIC To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before Manufacturer

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    Look into the Bubbleman Trinity Pen designed by us manufactured by us.

    Nothing comes close to it guaranteed.

    Based on our EO Tech.
     
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  14. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Very interested to see this one man! If it indeed does as Bubbleman describes, I'll be jumping right on board and taking a look ASAP :D
     
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  15. THC SCIENTIFIC

    THC SCIENTIFIC To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before Manufacturer

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    It does exactly what he mentions.
     
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  16. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge Retailer

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    Gotta link? I didn't see it available at your store.
     
  17. Vapppo

    Vapppo Vaping in Italy since too short!

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    Location:
    Somewhere - Italy
    Hi guys, I've read this post with interest and i'm writing to hear your opinions on my usage of tobacco and e-liquids for vaporization. Before that, let me excuse in advance for my english, i hope you can undersrtand my points.

    So, after 12+ years as Tobacco smoker and 16+ years as MJ smoker (mixed with tobacco), i fucked combustion 4 months ago after finding this forum and purchasing some good vapes.

    While converting all of my MJ consumption i realized that my tobacco consumption could also be converted to vaping.

    I started with some electronic vapes (Vivant Alternate, Pax, davinci Ascent) but quickly jumped to my definitive tobacco vape: the Vapman.

    The vapman (just like other butane powered vapes -Vapcap and stickybrick JR- did with MJ) quikcly became my daily driver for tobacco usage.

    In order to vape tobacco with satisfaction, however, i had to add some e-liquids which i found helped the ovaerall experience quite a lot. In the end, i realized that i was using an hybrid vaporization method: i put 0.3 grams of (very low nicotine) tobacco in the vapman, add 4-5 little drops of PG (30%) + VG (70%) and i'm ready to a very pleasant tobacco session.

    That's where i met this post: I've been reading quite a lot in this forum about tobacco and e-liquid and understand that using e liquid in e-Cigs at certain temperatures and wattage has proved not to be totally safe for our health.

    I'm not sure i can fully understand the articles posted on this thread and i'd appreciate if someone of you guys might help me understand if my use of e-liquid in butane-powered vapes is safe or not.

    I'm very satisfied with my current habits: vaping tobacco in the vapman is a very nice experience, with good flavour and no downsides that i can think of. I easily quit smoking since i have this method and i feel better in many ways.

    Please help me understand if my use of PG and VG is not safe and if you think I can improve my method in any ways. Please consider i'm based in Italy and many e-liquids available in the US may not be available here (PEG, CBD liquids. THC liquids).

    Always thank you and this forum for all the help you provide, cheers from Italy!
     
  18. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

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    468
    Unfamiliar with vapman. Are you concerned about temperature (is it higher than with vaporizers that use other heat sources)? Do you need PG or will VG alone produce the sensation you want?

    Curious - is Philip Morris' electrically heated device available in Italy? This uses whole tobacco, so it likely delivers minor alkaloids in addition to nicotine, which former smokers may find more satisfying. It produces little to no vapor, however, so you may not like it as much.

    [​IMG]
    Also curious whether this device will work with a cannabis joint. It's made to be used with proprietary cigarettes - don't know how these differ from regular cigarettes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
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  19. Vapppo

    Vapppo Vaping in Italy since too short!

    Messages:
    33
    Location:
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    I was not concerned until i saw your posts regarding PG and VG beeing dangerous when heated in the e-cigs. The VapMan allows to heat the material up with a butane torch and i'm not totally aware of the temperature I bring it to. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exceed the 180-200 celsius degrees. The material (tobacco in this case) is vaped well but not burned so i assume the temperatures are pretty much the same as other dry herbs vaporizers. After reading your posts in this thread, however, i realized that i'm probably mistaken in assuming that PG and VG are not dangerous at all so i wanted to know your opinions in this regard.

    I'm still trying to figure out: i've just purchased some 100% VG and i'll be able to tell if it makes much difference. I believe that i can easily switch to 100% VG if that matters. Do you suggest avoding PG and use VG only?

    Yes, it is and i have tried it. The Cons of this device in my experience are related to the taste (the "vapman method" delivers amazing taste and vapour production), the cost of the cigarettes (way too high) and the dependancy from batteries. Other than that i find the Iqos a good attempt and i must admit that it gave me the idea to wet my tobacco with PG and/or VG before putting it in my vapes.

    Thank you in advance for any inputs.
     
  20. Vapppo

    Vapppo Vaping in Italy since too short!

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    Location:
    Somewhere - Italy
    Sorry, just saw this last point: i've not tried the Iqos with cannabis but i dont find it too attractive in this sense (i'm much happier with butane powered vapes, also for mj). Also, i believe it's not easy to replace the proprietary cigarettes with home-made ones: the proprietary cigarettes are built with 3 different filters (one in another) and packed with a tobacco cured with several substances. If you open one of these cigarettes, you'll find out the tobacco is much different from the one i use to see in normal cigarettes or hand-roll tobacco.
     
  21. Accept

    Accept Well-Known Member

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    468
    If you don't need PG, why not? From the research that's been done to date, VG produces lower levels of various substances of concern than PG under similar conditions. You'd have a simpler system with less to worry about. It sounds like you're basically making your own shisha tobacco.

    Not surprising. Wonder if third-party manufacturers will ever be able to produce cigarettes for the Iqos. Only got to try it once at a conference with PMI scientists but intrigued by the possibilities. Don't want to derail the thread.
     
  22. Vapppo

    Vapppo Vaping in Italy since too short!

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Somewhere - Italy
    I'll try your suggestion in the weekend and report back asap. I actually tried Shisha tobacco once but it was definitely too wet. Shisha Tobacco and Iqos had both had a role in my attempts to wet my tobacco with PG and VG.

    I'm under the impression that heating VG (and/or PG) in butan-heated vapes may be less dangerous compared to e-cigs: am i wrong?
     
  23. nosmoking

    nosmoking Fogmonger

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    Location:
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    Is the link below for the device you speak of? Why can't we get more information about the Trinity? You have dropoed plenty of hints about it being the next best thing that we have never even had for concentrates but what is it? Perhaps we should bring this back to one of your threads but I really wish there was more information and pictures and such on this Trinity pen.

    https://www.w9tech.com/vaporizers/bubbleman-trinity-kit/
     
  24. THC SCIENTIFIC

    THC SCIENTIFIC To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before Manufacturer

    Messages:
    7,985
    Location:
    Los Angeles

    I am not allowed to release information about it until Bubbleman decides to release it. But for pictures its on his instagram and bubblemanbrands as well
     
  25. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead trance-form

    Messages:
    2,036
    I asked Bubbleman about it on his live stream the other day and he hasn't even received one yet. I didn't take Bubbleman as the kind of person who would put his name on a product he's never used but it appears that way?
     

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