Driving whilst high

[Tranquility]

In addition even if we talk non medical usage the effects and tolerances are vastly different per individual. I have a freaky "still entirely functional" level. I know people that a single mild puff on a generic J will be too wrecked to remember the dogs name.

The problem is, the crime is considered driving under the influence. (It can be named differently in each state.) "Influence" is far less than being unable to remember a dogs name.

With alcohol, U.S. states define a person is under the influence by two methods. One is the proof one is actually driving under the influence. The other is a "per se" limit. For adults under no special restrictions, that limit tends to be .08% BAC. Many experienced drinkers can be pretty functional at .08. *I* can be pretty functional at .08 and I don't have any tolerance. But, study after study will put some effects of alcohol to most all people when they are at .08. The FST's the police do look for subtle signs of that intoxication and not gross ones. Divided attention impairment is a major indicator the police look at--not that the person walking the line is fall over drunk to the point they have lost good balance or coordination. A person at that level of impairment is going to have a LOT higher BAC than the person that merely stops looking in their wallet for their license when asked where they were coming from.

There is going to be some per se limit for THC as well. It will be a lie as the variation of effects at certain doses vary wildly within the population. Yet, there will be a limit. It is not going to be a limit on where dogs names are forgotten, but where one finds Spicoli hilarious rather than merely humorous. If one smokes recreationally, I assume one smokes for effect and not to just look cool blowing vapor rings. If one obtains that effect, The State will try to keep one off the road. One factor The State will adjust to limit the perceived evil is to arrest those who do so.

 

[Krazy]

I wish you were wrong on any of that. It is going to screw medical users over big time.

 

[t-dub]

It is going to screw over medical users with high tolerance no doubt. I am sure that stone cold sober I will test positive for cannabis in any test over any limit they care to create. However, I must balance these feelings with the fact that my brother in law was killed by a drunk driver while riding his bicycle. The kid was 18, had partied all night, and was late getting back to the Navy base. He was driving on roads at 80 MPH that had a 30 MPH speed limit. After he killed my brother he got out of his car and complained about the damage that was done to it by my brother's body, called his mom and complained some more, and was taken to jail. He was sentenced to 8 years. The drinking age on Guam was 18 then. It was changed to 21 by a piece of legislation that bears my brother in laws name.

So I have very conflicted feelings about this subject. IMHO people who vape while driving are endangering themselves and others unnecessarily. I understand the difference between the two. Just try riding a bicycle after you have been vaping and then try it after you have been drinking. HUGE difference. And that difference is the important thing here because I believe had the guy who killed my brother in law had been using cannabis instead of alcohol the accident wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Driving while impaired at any level is a risk. What if, because of no fault of your own, an errant bicycle rider looking at a girl and not where he is going, riding on the sidewalk, hits your car broadside and sails over the sunroof? This happened to me and even though I was stone cold sober, and the biker was at fault, the biker got the benefit of the doubt for legal and insurance purposes. So it is a no win scenario.

All I can say is THINK before you drive while under the influence of any substance. Regret lasts a lifetime and even if the accident isn't your fault you could find yourself behind the 8 ball legally anyways.

 

[JoeKickass]

I'm looking forward to the self driving cars

For you guys that have tried Uber, do you find drivers that let you vape?
Self driving car + Uber could be the answer for any level of intoxication...

 

[Krazy]

I'v been looking online and can't find a conversion of 5 ng/ml per the tests to actual amount consumed by a daily user. At what amount of daily consumption is a medical user illegal to drive 24/7?

 

[Tranquility]

I'v been looking online and can't find a conversion of 5 ng/ml per the tests to actual amount consumed by a daily user. At what amount of daily consumption is a medical user illegal to drive 24/7?

Are you sure there is a per se limit in your country/state and the statute is for 5ng/ml?

As to the amount needed to have a person be illegal to drive, at least in the U.S., most states do not have a "per se" limit yet. They will; just not yet. Having such a limit will make it far easier to convict a person of the crime. (After all the court challenges to each step leading to a conviction. The first few years will have the courts discussing this very question as related to whatever law your jurisdiction passes.) But, even without the per se limit, all the states have some definition of what intoxicated/influence means. The definition is meant to apply to ALL drivers under ANY influence of ANY substance so it is going to be written very generally and will apply to even very low levels of THC in the blood stream.

Because of that, the reality is most of the issue will be based on the discretion of those along the process. When the red lights hit your back window and the sound of da police go woop, woop (Or, you pull up to some police DUI/License/whatever checkpoint.), the next step depends on the discretion of the officer(s) that stopped you. If things go poorly, the prosecutor will review what the officer developed and use his discretion to determine if there is enough evidence and a good reason to file the case. If a case is filed, it will be a judge or jury who use discretion to determine if it was proven as a fact beyond a reasonable doubt you were driving under the influence.

To find a "conversion" factor would be very hard because of the wide variability of the quality of the THC product used and the method of ingestion. If you google something like: blood thc levels impairment
you will see many studies. Read through the methods and find how they dosed the test subjects and how the dosage affected blood THC levels in relation to time.

 

[syrupy]

It is going to screw over medical users with high tolerance no doubt. I am sure that stone cold sober I will test positive for cannabis in any test over any limit they care to create. However, I must balance these feelings with the fact that my brother in law was killed by a drunk driver while riding his bicycle. The kid was 18, had partied all night, and was late getting back to the Navy base. He was driving on roads at 80 MPH that had a 30 MPH speed limit. After he killed my brother he got out of his car and complained about the damage that was done to it by my brother's body, called his mom and complained some more, and was taken to jail. He was sentenced to 8 years. The drinking age on Guam was 18 then. It was changed to 21 by a piece of legislation that bears my brother in laws name.

So I have very conflicted feelings about this subject. IMHO people who vape while driving are endangering themselves and others unnecessarily. I understand the difference between the two. Just try riding a bicycle after you have been vaping and then try it after you have been drinking. HUGE difference. And that difference is the important thing here because I believe had the guy who killed my brother in law had been using cannabis instead of alcohol the accident wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Driving while impaired at any level is a risk. What if, because of no fault of your own, an errant bicycle rider looking at a girl and not where he is going, riding on the sidewalk, hits your car broadside and sails over the sunroof? This happened to me and even though I was stone cold sober, and the biker was at fault, the biker got the benefit of the doubt for legal and insurance purposes. So it is a no win scenario.

All I can say is THINK before you drive while under the influence of any substance. Regret lasts a lifetime and even if the accident isn't your fault you could find yourself behind the 8 ball legally anyways.

I really appreciate you sharing your story. It provides an important counter-balance to those that have driven impaired with seemingly no consequences.

 

[CalyxSmokr]

I'm looking forward to the self driving cars

For you guys that have tried Uber, do you find drivers that let you vape?
Self driving car + Uber could be the answer for any level of intoxication...

they would be idiots to let you vape. Having weed in the car cabin I believe is grounds for DUI in CA. Would be a huge risk

 

[King_Bob]

Looks like the Ontario Police will now be able to suspend licenses for drivers who are high on drugs. Not sure how they will determine if a person is high without having a way to test for this; like a breathalyzer for alcohol.

They also have not yet set a legal limit for cannabis impairment, so there are still a lot unknowns about how this will work or be enforced.

My doctor had me sign a contract in which one of the agreements was that I would not drive for four hours after using cannabis. That seems like a reasonable amount of time before driving. Maybe that could be the rule of thumb.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/drivers-high-drugs-licences-legislation-1.3788481

 

[kellya86]

My doctor had me sign a contract in which one of the agreements was that I would not drive for four hours after using cannabis. That seems like a reasonable amount of time before driving. Maybe that could be the rule of thumb.

Unless you ate the cannabis 4 hours earlier....

 

[Creeper]

Looks like the Ontario Police will now be able to suspend licenses for drivers who are high on drugs. Not sure how they will determine if a person is high without having a way to test for this; like a breathalyzer for alcohol.

They also have not yet set a legal limit for cannabis impairment, so there are still a lot unknowns about how this will work or be enforced.

My doctor had me sign a contract in which one of the agreements was that I would not drive for four hours after using cannabis. That seems like a reasonable amount of time before driving. Maybe that could be the rule of thumb.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/drivers-high-drugs-licences-legislation-1.3788481

Thanks for the update on this, I always assumed they would conduct some roadside sobriety test if they suspected impairment.

My take on this is if you need to medicate while driving use weak cannabis or something super high in CBD to avoid negative effects regarding reactions.

I personally leave a little earlier so I can vape in the parking lot when I get to wherever I need to be.

 

[killick]

There is no 'one size fits all' rule.

@t-dub I have seen your story happen thousands of times, sadly. I know several people who have been racing back to a ship for flashup and are absolutely hammered, but the rules say that will be in deep shit if they are late so people drive. It's not really 'deep shit'. Possibly a small fine or some extra work, but nothing life altering, although when you are in the military, and junior, there is nothing worse than being late. And while typing this I'm not unaware of the fact that there is much, much worse than being late, but not for young military folk (in their own mind). I'm sorry to hear about the huge impact on your family.

A buddy went fishing at 0500 after a house party and got an impaired wobbling down the road towing his boat behind him. Others have huge cases of road rash from wiping out on scooters in foreign ports. Alcohol is invariably a factor. These are all Navy stories unfortunately, and there are millions of them.

Fortunately cannabis isn't alcohol. Cannabis is also not any one of the dozens of medications it displaced. Myself, and a great many other med patients, simply aren't stoned. I haven't been stoned in years. But I do know when I'm 'slightly elevated', and don't drive.

So, to get a more realistic take on things, I'm going to drop by the local police office and have a chat with them and get their take on things. It would be great if there were an opportunity to sit there with a vape and run through a bunch of scenarios with them.

Also, we live rural. The town is small, everyone knows most everyone else. We have 3 traffic lights. We are also in the middle of tourist country, and as herb becomes more legal I'm discovering that there are *a lot* of growers out there, and pretty much everyone has the occasional joint.

Welcome to cannabis country

 

[Ricardo]

So, to get a more realistic take on things, I'm going to drop by the local police office and have a chat with them and get their take on things.

Good luck with that, friend

 

[TheWhisper]

Self-driving cars can't arrive quickly enough. Policing of in-car and driving behavior is a relic of the past, and I'll be glad when it's finally consigned to the past.

 

[Tranquility]

Self-driving cars can't arrive quickly enough. Policing of in-car and driving behavior is a relic of the past, and I'll be glad when it's finally consigned to the past.

Help get them here sooner by giving your input on ethical issues.

A quiz to describe the ethics about some vehicle "choices":
http://moralmachine.mit.edu/

 

[King_Bob]

So, to get a more realistic take on things, I'm going to drop by the local police office and have a chat with them and get their take on things

I wouldn`t do that if I were you. If you walk into the police station and admit you are driving high all the time I can almost guarantee you will not be driving much longer. It seems that police deal with a cannabis possession incident every nine minutes. So once cannabis is legal they need to find something else to focus on...which will be cannabis impaired driving. Trying to convince the police that they do not need to enforce cannabis impairment is not going to work because it means they will lose jobs.

You need to have a talk with the law makers instead.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/pot-possession-incidents-1.3247653

 

[syrupy]

I wouldn't be surprised if self-driving cars don't improve the situation. They all allow the driver to take control, therefore if a driver is high, they could be considered impaired to operate the self-driving mechanism. I recall reading about a person who died in a self-driving car. The conclusion was the self-driving part failed to see a tractor trailer, and the driver failed to take control of the car. They might be less dangerous, but are they safe enough to carry an inebriated person?

 

[killick]

I wouldn`t do that if I were you. If you walk into the police station and admit you are driving high all the time I can almost guarantee you will not be driving much longer. It seems that police deal with a cannabis possession incident every nine minutes. So once cannabis is legal they need to find something else to focus on...which will be cannabis impaired driving. Trying to convince the police that they do not need to enforce cannabis impairment is not going to work because it means they will lose jobs.

You need to have a talk with the law makers instead.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/pot-possession-incidents-1.3247653

Oddly, ever since my buddy had his Jeep wrapped with Marijuana For Trauma logos he's been pulled over exactly once. He carries his meds with him, and he was happy to show the officer the prescription label. The officer thanked buddy for his service (veterans plates), and took a few brochures to leave wherever appropriate for his fellow RCMP officers, who also fall under the same insurance program as Canadian military veterans.

When they leave active service with the RCMP then they, too, will qualify for medical cannabis coverage through Veterans Affairs Canada. They may also qualify for it before they leave active service. Pm me for info, I'm always happy to help.

www.mftgroup.ca

 

[Krazy]

Next they will try and claim that getting marathon nob-jobs on road trips makes me a distracted driver!

 

[EverythingsHazy]

I know it's not perfect. but for future reference in this thread this guide might help us ocmmunicate what level of "highness" we are talking about:

There is no 'one size fits all' rule.

Fortunately cannabis isn't alcohol. Cannabis is also not any one of the dozens of medications it displaced. Myself, and a great many other med patients, simply aren't stoned. I haven't been stoned in years. But I do know when I'm 'slightly elevated', and don't drive.

I'm curious. If you say you aren't stoned, then you'd also be correct in saying that you wouldn't really be driving "while high". Now, I don't know if you actually aren't in a different mental state anymore due to your constant high dose consumption, or if you are just always in a somewhat different mental state, and it has become unnoticeable and the norm for you, but regardless, I'm still interested in your take on driving while feeling high/stoned, or even consuming cannabis while driving. A lot of people here claim to be able to tell when they are capable of safe driving, but they also claim to be capable while they feel high, and since you said you won't drive when you feel "slightly elevated", that seems like a different perspective.

1. What's your stance on high/stoned driving, and on consumption while driving?
2. Using the above chart, would you say that you are always at 0?

 

[King_Bob]

I am curious, would any of you get on a Bus or a taxi if you knew the driver was cannabis impaired ...but you did not know the driver personally ?

I believe that even though we may believe we are ok to drive, others who do not know us may not have the same confidence and comfort with us driving after consuming cannabis.

Once they set the legal limit it will not matter if you feel impaired or not. I believe that within one year the legal limit will be set in Canada and by then the police will have the tools to do road side testing for cannabis impairment.

 

[His_Highness]

I am curious, would any of you get on a Bus or a taxi if you knew the driver was cannabis impaired ...but you did not know the driver personally ?

I believe that even though we may believe we are ok to drive, others who do not know us may not have the same confidence and comfort with us driving after consuming cannabis.

Once they set the legal limit it will not matter if you feel impaired or not. I believe that within one year the legal limit will be set in Canada and by then the police will have the tools to do road side testing for cannabis impairment.

In an emergency, Yes. Otherwise, No.

 

[killick]

I know it's not perfect. but for future reference in this thread this guide might help us ocmmunicate what level of "highness" we are talking about:


I'm curious. If you say you aren't stoned, then you'd also be correct in saying that you wouldn't really be driving "while high". Now, I don't know if you actually aren't in a different mental state anymore due to your constant high dose consumption, or if you are just always in a somewhat different mental state, and it has become unnoticeable and the norm for you, but regardless, I'm still interested in your take on driving while feeling high/stoned, or even consuming cannabis while driving. A lot of people here claim to be able to tell when they are capable of safe driving, but they also claim to be capable while they feel high, and since you said you won't drive when you feel "slightly elevated", that seems like a different perspective.

1. What's your stance on high/stoned driving, and on consumption while driving?
I don't think anyone should drive under the influence of an intoxicant, or under the influence of medication that says 'caution: may cause drowsiness'. This would cause every single vehicle in the nation to stop operating. Instead we put a lot of faith in the fact that every wonked wierdo out there isn't aiming their vehicle at us *right this very minute!*.

2. Using the above chart, would you say that you are always at 0?

I don't think I fit in the chart actually. What number is 'less pain and somewhat content'? What number is 'in pain, fidgety, cranky, aggressive and somewhat adversarial'?

Anyhoo, there are a lot of differences between recreational, occasional, daily, and medical users. Given the opportunity I'd love the chance to take a driving simulator for a whirl...

 

[syrupy]

I am curious, would any of you get on a Bus or a taxi if you knew the driver was cannabis impaired ...but you did not know the driver personally ?

Just curious, how would I know if the driver was using cannabis or not?

What number is 'in pain, fidgety, cranky, aggressive and somewhat adversarial'?

I don't think that's the herb.

That chart is giving me a headache, with the misspellings.

 

[Krazy]

My state does NOT have a 5ng/ml rule, I used it as an example as that seems to be where most are headed. And I do know that no consumption = a specific ng/ml chart exists. that was rather my point.

It is rather sad that even in these forums people are equating any cannabis use with being "impaired". Lets apply the same standard to other meds and see where it gets you. How about "under the influence" of anti allergy meds?

I wouldn't want a buss driver to be wired on too much coffee, or crashing from an appropriate doss of coffee imbibed 1.5 hours ago. Distracted by an argument with a supervisor or a breakup with a SO. How about a high carb all you can eat meal 1/2 an hour before driving? How about lack of sleep?

Their is a huge difference in perspective between a responsible medical user and recreational use.

I know it's not perfect. but...
2. Using the above chart...

I will NOT use the chart, lol. It is like Asking " Have you stopped molesting sheep yet; answer yes or no". For a lot of people that know how to use it, a small amount enhances focus and concentration. And that doesn't even address people with chronic pain, seizure disorders, etc..