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Do these things exist or no?

Discussion in 'Ask FC' started by LonelyStoner, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. LonelyStoner

    LonelyStoner Active Member

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    Location:
    State College, PA
    The most prevalent problem I found with vaporizers is accidental combustion. I mean, this seems like a pretty easy problem to fix. All you need is a vaporizer with a chamber that can be vacated of air (otherwise establish a vacuum) before beginning to vaporize. The heating element will still be able to force THC and other substances to undergo the phase change to a vapor, but while lacking any oxygen needed to react with the plant matter to cause combustion. Of course, air would have to be reintroduced at the end to clear out the chamber but still seems like an easy and reliable concept

    Are there any vaporizers like this? If not, why? Is there something I'm overlooking...
  2. Seek

    Seek Apprentice Daydreamer

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    1,390
    I don't think this exists. Also you would need to get the oxygen back to the vapor before inhaling, i mean we are already getting oxygen deprivation when vaping, this must be extreme...
    Also I don't think there is really a need to take temps that high. A good vape like Cloud can extract everything in few hits and will never combust in vaping ranges.
    To stop combusting, you just need a better vape, not take the oxygen out of equation, that(s just too complicated.
  3. hoptimum

    hoptimum Well-Known Member

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    722
    Combustion is not a major problem for me. With most vaporizers, especially desktops, you need to really push it to combust. I prefer the flavor at lower temps and seldom approach combustion temps. Except for the HI. That one will combust pretty easily if youre not careful.
  4. RUDE BOY

    RUDE BOY Space is the Place

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    Most of the vaporizers I've used you can't combust for trying really only a problem with certain designs or careless use.
  5. LonelyStoner

    LonelyStoner Active Member

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    Location:
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    I doubt oxygen deprivation would have little if any effect, unless you are taking hits for 3 consecutive minutes. You'd still be getting more oxygen than those that combust anyways (no carbon monoxide binding to hemoglobin in RBCs).

    Not to mention that a vacuumed chamber would have a significant decrease in internal pressure and therefore require less energy (heat/time) to vaporize any matter inside, the same effect that allows water to boil at lower temperatures at higher altitudes

    As for complicated, all you would need is 10¢ check value and choke (given the chamber was air tight), honestly might try making something like this myself as a side little project and see how it works out.

    When I said its the most prevalent problem, I didn't mean its in any way a common problem. The majority of vaporizers go off without a hitch. The only real problem revolving around vaporizers (though only effecting a few) is accidental combustion.
    Denver912 likes this.
  6. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    10,101
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    With most vaporizers, accidental combustion is nothing more than part of the learning process and once those processes are learned, combustion becomes a thing of the past.
    Chill Dude likes this.
  7. poonman

    poonman Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    I like your thinking LonelyStoner .

    Just to add ,
    If you create a choke which provides an air tight chamber .
    you would need some kind of carb to clear that hit in the chamber

    Also ,
    once the cool carb air clears the chamber , it will change the temp

    hope that helps with your personal project .
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  8. LonelyStoner

    LonelyStoner Active Member

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    Location:
    State College, PA
    Thanks, I'm gonna try to get it done before the end of the year, wish me luck
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  9. z9

    z9 Well-Known Member

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    It would have to be heated via conduction or radiation. Have some sort of vaccuum

    How would you evenly cook the herb with a design like this? Conduction? Dont think so. Radiation? You'd need to tumble the weed. Just buy a mflb if you want a vape like that...

    No air, no convection
    Bouldorado likes this.
  10. LonelyStoner

    LonelyStoner Active Member

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    Location:
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    Though I am still did thinking on what method I should use to heat my herb, I'm confused by why you think convection wouldn't work in an vacuumed chamber.

    When you say "no air, no convection", I'm going to assume you mean no gaseous matter, no convection and are no directly referring to the chemical cocktail of nitrogen and oxygen.

    Lets say I were to go with something similar to the magic flight in which a conducting metal is used to transfer heat to the herb that its in direct contact with. Like you said before, the conducting heat between the metal and the herb would not evenly 'cook' the whole batch of herb and only cause the THC nearest to the heat exchange to vaporize (unless of course you give it enough time for the heat to gradually diffuse throughout the whole plant, but that would take too long for whats primarily solid and non-conductive). However when the THC in the herb making contact with the metal is vaporized, it of course undergo a phase into the gas state and, doing what all gases do best, takes on the shape of its container. The hot THC vapor, in the absence of air, would act instead as the convention agent to the rest of the herb not making direct contact with the metal heating element.

    And of course, my vacuum won't be anywhere on par like those used by NASA and not a complete devoid of air. However the small sample of remaining air will still be primary nitrogen and will (hopefully) not have enough oxygen for combustion.
  11. RUDE BOY

    RUDE BOY Space is the Place

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    1,793
    Hot Air needs to pass through the Herb to get vapor via convection I think. But I ain't no science wiz or nutin'.
    z9 likes this.
  12. LonelyStoner

    LonelyStoner Active Member

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    Location:
    State College, PA
    Yeah, hot gas diffusing through a chamber and making contact with all parts of the herb is how convection works. The vapor produced through the direct conduction of the metal is a hot gas that does the same thing... it essentially replaces the air that was vacated in the first place

    Its sort of the same concept of when a fast-food chef squirts some water on the grill and then quickly covers it and the slab of meat with a domed lid. The water is vaporized into hot steam by the hot grill, which is trapped underneath the lib, cooking the meat all around instead of just the side making contact with the grill.

    If you and z9 are still confused by this idea, I could make a diagram to try and better convey what I'm explaining
  13. RUDE BOY

    RUDE BOY Space is the Place

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    1,793
    LonelyStoner I may really just not understand your concept, like I said science was never my thing so when I think of convection and vaporizers I think of those I've seen that all seem to have to have heated air pulled or pushed through the herb and into your lungs either through direct draw/whip or with a Bag.

    I don't understand how fresh Hot air can be passed through the herb and into my lungs with the herb in a vacuum chamber.
  14. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

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    I think you should.. It would make it easier to discuss.
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  15. Zookeeper

    Zookeeper Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Never had a vape combust other than a user input heat source (lighter vapes).

    I think some people think dark herbs = combustion... my herbs are always black but never ignite. I've heard stories of people combusting on a Solo,but its been completely impossible on the 3 solos I've used. Same with an EQ. How in the hello are these people igniting?

    If you can keep shorting out the battery indefinitely.. well thats a 50 dollar vape with no temp sensors completely reliat on guessitmation/user input. To solve this problem, you upgrade to a production vape rather than a hobbiest model. (sorry mflb owners)

    Vaporizer tech isnt very advanced. you need a power source, a way to short it out (coil of wire) and a path to bring the heat from the coil to the herb... The only trick is the placement of temp sensors that tell the power source when to stop shorting out and when to begin shorting out again. and possibley a mass to retain heat so the battery doesnt have to work so hard. But would that store heat be better used going through the herb as soon as the heat is created?

    Maybe this is a problem with conduction vapes,which I see as useless technology. What good is it to melt resiins into a plant matter and not have air flow to pull them back out?

    I guess the point I was originally trying to make is, why would a vaporizer pruced a high enough temperature to ignite herb in the first place? Dont tell me a heater needs to produce 550 degrees because its only 370degrees by the time it reaches the herb, as no variable is going to sporatically carry that 550 to the herb chamber, and not other times. I gave up the "you have to feather this buttom because this isnt a true vape, its just a heat source you try to keep within the acceptable range" type vapes long ago. I can do that by waving a bic lighter over a smoking piece for vapes sake.

    Modnote: Back to back posts merged. Please use the edit feature to avoid this.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2013
  16. paytonpenn

    paytonpenn Level 30 Nature/Healer

    Messages:
    665
    You are overlooking the T-Vape, it uses conduction though, from what I know it doesn't combust and I have gone through many bowls that just end up looking like char. Also air is introduced at the end of the chamber.

    EDIT:
    Not everyone vapes just cannabis let alone vaping it always in flower form.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
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  17. Bouldorado

    Bouldorado Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    801
    Location:
    CO
    I've thought about this before and although it seems simple in theory, I believe it would be extremely difficult in practice. As discussed above, vaporizers are readily available with fairly stable temperature control, which practically eliminates the risk of combustion. As such, this exercise is more appropriate when viewed from a connoisseur standpoint; improved flavor and smoothness of vapor.

    The boiling pt of THC (according to Wikipedia) is 180C at sea level. This translates to 175C in Denver. You can easily find boiling points in different cities by finding the atmospheric pressure and using this calculator. Let's say you want to vaporize at 75C; an arbitrary number, but since it's 100C less than the normal boiling pt, it should in theory, provide better flavor. To vape at 75C, the pressure in the vaccum chamber must be 17mm HG or less. For reference, sea level is ~760mm and Denver is ~626.

    In Denver this means a vacuum of 609mm HG; well within the realm of many hand-powered vac pumps, and most electric ones. Let's say you have a vacuum chamber and some way of heating it; either through an external heat source or an internal one. The pressure and temperature are technically possible to achieve, but that leaves an unsolved problem: how do you get the vapor into your lungs?
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  18. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,034
    Location:
    S. California
    @Zookeeper,
    I suspect the things that could restrict airflow, like maybe a dirty screen, can help create extra heat build-up in the extraction chamber.. or something... and can possibly lead to combustion.

    Conduction is certainly not useless.. I'm all about Convection, but Conduction has a place w/ me, for sure.

    With all the digitally controlled vaporizers available, I can see how exercising the fundamental aspects required by user regulated vaporizers can seem too demanding for some.. but I definitely would not compare them to "waving a BIC lighter over a smoking piece".
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
    SSVUN~YAH likes this.
  19. LonelyStoner

    LonelyStoner Active Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    State College, PA
    Here's something I hope will get across what I'm saying, forgive me for the shitty graphics
    [​IMG]
    I'm not sure what you mean when you say it would be difficult in practice. As long as I'm not trying to vacate something the size of a bath tub, it would take little effort to establish a vacuum in a small chamber, not to mention one with a lower internal pressure than 17mmHg.
    For instance, here's an example of a 15$ shitty vaccum pump that claims to get down to 15 to 0mmHg
    https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10398
    though I'll still probably be making one myself

    Any type of check value, either hooked up to a whip or second lung bag, as well as some kind of carb to clear the chamber after a batch has been cooked
  20. Bouldorado

    Bouldorado Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    801
    Location:
    CO
    That pump you linked to only has a 16" Hg (409 mm) maximum vacuum, considerably less than the 609mm required to vape at 75C. It would still work, albeit at a higher temperature.

    As I said in my previous post, the temperature and pressure conditions are easily achievable, but evacuating the vapor seems to be more technically complicated.

    In theory, you could install two check valves on the chamber; one that serves as an intake to equalize pressure, and one as an outtake. However I believe the resulting decrease in pressure would cause the vapor to condense on the walls of the vacuum chamber.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  21. DDave

    DDave Vape Wizard

    Messages:
    744
    I have to 2nd the use of the Arizer EQ! An awesome machine that I've not yet had combustion occur, but with mods listed in its associated thread, a heavy hitter all to its own!

    Vape On!
  22. LonelyStoner

    LonelyStoner Active Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    State College, PA
    ...I think don't think the temperature would be that greatly affected. The max temperature for that shitty pump is 0-16'' Hg, which comes out to be a range of 25mmHg-409mmHg, and going off your calculation if I wanted to vaporize something at 75C, the pressure would have to be 17mmHg, which is only 8mmHg off. That being said, that pump is something made from SparkFun and is intended for small scall home experiments, I merely linked to it as a show that its not hard to establish a vacuum. I already have access to a simple vacuum pump from my chem class that can get down to 0.05 atm (which is about the pressure THC will vaporize at 100C, about 80 degrees lower than what you said the boiling point for thc was).

    Condensation (gas -> liquid) occurs due to either an increase in pressure (compression) or decreased temperature, decreasing the pressure on a substance increases its ability to become a gas, not the other way around. On a side note, the gaseous THC coming in contact with the relatively cold walls of the unheated part of the vaporizer such as the whip causes some condensation to occur in all vaporizers (otherwise referred to as the 'honey' people extract off their whips,stems or bags) as the vapor cannot be constantly held at 180C while being pulled out of the device and into the users' throat and lungs. The loss is negligible and not much of a concern.
  23. vap999

    vap999 Well-Known Member

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    194
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  24. LonelyStoner

    LonelyStoner Active Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    State College, PA
    Of course, I'm merely trying to imply the concept to vaporizing herb. How else would I have come up with the idea?
  25. robbie

    robbie Active Member

    Messages:
    40
    Why would I want to eliminate combustion?

    Cranking the buddha up to full and watching my friends eyes tear up as smoke comes out of their ears is just too priceless. :D

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