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Divine Tribe atty's

Discussion in 'E-cig Based Portables' started by divinetribe, Jun 12, 2014.

  1. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
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    No, not really. TCR is a technique, the mod always in TCR mode (controlling heating by changes in resistance). The 'm' value is a specific measurement of that change. It varies with materials. In the manual case you input the m value (change ratio in PPM per degree C) in other modes (like Ni) use default values (you should find a table for this in you mod's manual, mine all do).

    You're obviously getting hot enough to burn concentrates, but you really want it under control I think.

    First step, clean it up and put it 'like new' shaped (attack the screws, strip it, torch it clean, reassemble)? Then get it working reliably in TCR mode (I suggest using the numbers I am because I know they work, but pick your own 'resource'?). Again, brightly glowing heaters with the pattern clearly visible is probably a useful clue. Then, as step 3, put some concentrate in and try it out making vapor.

    Your call, but that's my advice, based on how I would attack it......which I think was what you were looking for?

    OF

    Edit: Here's a fun (at least to me) analogy that might help. Getting drunk is a process or technique like TCR is? The proof (percentage of alcohol) is like m values, the size and number of drinks like the temperature setting. Alcohol content per drink and number of drinks determine if you're drunk enough yet, M value and temperature together determine if TCR is satisfied. TCR and m values are two different thing (although related) same as being drunk isn't only a factor of how strong a drink is?

    Might not help you understand what I'm having trouble relating, but it is fun......

    OF
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  2. Kanna_Kult

    Kanna_Kult Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    92
    So is there any way for me to manually change the m value ?, and yes that analogy helped a lot!
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  3. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Yes, on all the TCR mods I have (or know about?) you have m1, m2 and m3 settings on the menu with the others (pass through, VW, Ni, and so on). Each of them lets you set a different value. You can, for instance, set m2 at what you think you want, m1 say 10% lower, m3 10% higher making corrections easy to 'dial in'. This should all be in your manual????

    Have you started with V3 as recommended? You should have addressed all this then with a format that's much more forgiving. Jumping into QQ without understanding TCR and so on gives you a mighty full plate, in a game where every detail to be right (or at least reasonable) to play.

    Reading this thread is also recommended. You can skim over lots of it, but there's also lots of good information there.......all this stuff to. The basics go back several models (before V2.5) as we got familiar with TCR, contact issues and such. Which is why the recommendation to 'cut your teeth' on V3 I think. Much harder to 'take the big leap'.

    Good luck with it, you know my advice.

    TIA

    OF
     
  4. Kanna_Kult

    Kanna_Kult Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    92
    Haha I thought having my mod for almost 2 years and my Sai would be enough but damn was I wrong. Still love it, just lack the proper understanding of how to use it. When I got it I THOUGHT I understood TCR lol thank you so much OF!
     
  5. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Yer welcome for sure, from my end that's the whole idea, right? We all faced this as this exciting product developed. We got it in stages and for the most part were blazing new trails......collectively we had a lot to learn and some bad ideas to get past. Not fair to call it a 'learning curve' there were no lessons......

    Even now, no real program, a guy's gotta educate himself in large part. Which is why we tend to 'compromise advice' to learn to drive V3. Learn to drive in a normal passenger car with automatic transmission and power steering and brakes then try the 'vette? Less to distract. I suggest you get a V3 (there's a good guy discount price link floating around, look for posts by Matt). It does an outstanding job and has the advantage of only two connections, both straightforward, all else being sealed under the glazing on the ceramic. Much easier to troubleshoot. Just harder to clean.......

    Mods need to be modern TCR designs, some of the early ones we're very stable, all of which seem to offer several custom m value registers (like a 'zero cost' deal for them......). Most guys like ones that let you swap out cells, internal battery ones are usually a bit more compact. The iStick Pico Matt has in his videos is a popular unit. Great for V3 as is the VTC Mini and several others you'll see mentioned 'round here.

    While you can run V3 on less than 20 Watts, QQ will need more like 60. Really presses single cell mods hard, battery selection becomes critical. Something to keep in mind.

    I think you get the idea? The metal used to make the heaters changes resistance as it heats up. It gets larger by a fraction of a percent per degree C. .3 is a 'good number' for most common metals, they change .3% per degree C. 3% for ten and so on. BTW that would be shown as '300' on the mod. In our case the resistance nearly doubles, from around .25 to nearly .5 Ohms. The m value and temperature settings tell the processor how many percent rise will be measured 'on temperature' and it will control power to make that happen if possible.

    Any 'glitch' in that smooth rise in resistance, like a dicey connection, no matter how brief will kick the mod into VW mode as a default (for the obvious reason.....kinda like covering the driver's eyes, calls for fast action).

    Now the good part. This means you can't overheat the heater! You can't 'cook the oil' and ruin the load (even if you really screw up). It hits 390F (or whatever you tell it.....) and throttles the power like curse control. Sweet. You'll never go back......

    V3 doesn't hold a lot, you need to reload between hits for best benefit. It's awkward to clean but truly rebuildable by design. In fact it comes with spare heaters. Most guys heat it, shake it out, and then crank up the power until it burns clean. This is a traditional way to kill heaters as you might imagine. Guys who 'really have it under control' have accidents, best to always have a spare or two around. Truth be known, some of us swap the (new) spare in early and move the dirty one to backup duty.

    QQ takes that to the next level. The bowl is fresh for every load. Squeaky clean for what we need it for, really, with a simple wipe.

    Anyway, get a V3 and a Pico, Mini, Dual or something suitable and settle in. A bit of fiddling to get things going, then it's gonna set your chickens free. Amazing control and production in a compact package. Most cool, you'll love it.

    Then, change m value, power limit, and temperature on the mod, swap QQ for V3 and start down the path to an even better place. V3 will always be there, but likely to get lonely.......

    Regards to all.

    OF
     
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  6. Kanna_Kult

    Kanna_Kult Well-Known Member

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    92
    Yeah 2 cell mod is next on my to-buy list, probably gonna get the alpha one by voopoo. And new batteries, with my evic I just still have the 18650 it came with and it probably wasn't great to begin with. Any suggestions for 18650's? I might end up getting the v3 but I have quite a few other purchases to make first, and by the time I'd buy it the updated qq should be out. The way I see it even if I break this one, I'll be getting a whole new bottom piece that's not finicky anyway. And I hope no one takes this as bashing the qq, it's an awesome product, and matt is the man for really making what people have been wanting for years and pricing it very fairly, his customer service is second to none.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  7. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
    Left Coast
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  8. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Earlier today apparently someone hacked my account and said:

    Something didn't seem quite right about that so after it nagging me for a while I decided to see what was up. Here's 3 runs from my Cuboid and an empty cup (I repeated the first test after the last one, that is did a fourth run, to confirm nothing shifted):

    Ni @ 310F gave .464 Ohms when stable (my normal setting from Matt)
    245 @ 540F also gave .464 Ohms (the m value I use with V2.5 and small V3s)
    490 @ 310F gave .468 Ohms, close enough for a small shop........

    So, right off, the Evic guys are fibbing in their book looks like? A m value of 490 for Ni default seems more accurate than '600-700'. Then, assuming a 70F start we have rises of 470 and 240. So, doubling the m value (245 to 490) and cutting the requested rise (470 cut to 240) gives the same temperature/result. We can start with either of those 'formulas' and tweak either factor from there (raising temperature or DROPPING m value will make it hotter, the reverse cooler). Remember, those temperatures aren't real, stuff just doesn't glow that much at that temperature, but they are relative, and in scale. On that topic, staying on scale 245 @ 540F seems a better idea to me since it's very hard to accidentally set it much higher?

    We can also 'power limit' to protect from accidents, but when I try much below 50 Watts it gets mighty slow. Tough watching the numbers crawl slower and slower. I'll pay the extra power and go 55 Watts as a compromise.

    Regards to all. If you run into the hacker, tell him they lied to him in that little book......in six languages, no less.

    OF
     
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  9. graydeh1

    graydeh1 Double deckin'

    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    Toronto
    I had one really great session out of the box, then it started jumping all over with the ohms.
    I put it away until the new bottom comes in.
    But yep that one really good session tasted just like an oil rig and had me droolin
     
  10. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Gentle Friends,

    Another cleaning idea for your consideration, "Magic Eraser"?
    https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Clean-Era...6860&sr=8-3-spons&keywords=magic+eraser&psc=1

    These are Melamine (an industrial glue) foam pads, much like soft sponges. Lots of very small bubbles with thin walls. The 'rub' is the material is very hard and brittle. Not as hard as glass, but harder than almost anything else. Like burned on concentrate.......

    We've long used them on Solo/Air ovens and other places to remove fouling so I had them handy, why it never occurred to me to try them before I've no idea.

    I've only tried once, but it worked great! This cup was badly fouled across the bottom with only a small clear area left in the center, otherwise time to pull it down and get the torch out again?

    I cut a strip off the end, maybe half an inch wide, dampened it in water and then wrung it out so it was damp (per instructions) then poked it in and gently turned it perhaps a dozen turns total? Hold it by the cup so you don't twist on the leads. Very little pressure needed, the work is done at the surface. It broke the fouling into tiny flakes which were harder to wipe out than get off the glass. Shows real promise, now I have to foul it up again so I can do another test........

    BTW, these guys are great for other things. Like the haze on the shower walls and door? Magic, try it.

    Common grocery store item, also available in generic form on EBay or Amazon:
    https://www.amazon.com/STK-Extra-Cleaning-Sponges-Kitchen-Bathroom-Furniture-Leather-Car-Steel
    /dp/B01CYTW58Y/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1518836860&sr=8-6&keywords=magic+eraser

    Check 'em out, takes scuff marks off walls........

    OF
     
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  11. nosmoking

    nosmoking Fogmonger

    Messages:
    1,307
    Location:
    DC Area
    I know you were not talking to me my friend but I have a dna250 chip in my mod and cannot do this unfortunately. I can do some neat things on Escribe supposedly but I have not figured out how to use Escribe. My 2 or 3 attemps have been fails so far, however the Mod did come with Ni,Ti,SS modes at least so I have something to work with. I have found success tonight with Ti mode at 30 watts w/ 320F.
    I really miss being able to set the TCR M1 values though. I had this option on my Pico Mega and my Evic v2 mini but I dont have those mods anymore. I got the Vapedroid C3D1 with the dna250 chip because I thought dna was the way to go with its praise for TC accuracy. Now I am looking into mods with the Yihi chipsets and the Gene chip.
    I would really like to find something to run the QQ on that requires only 1 or 2 [18650] batteries and does TCR well for about $50. I don't know if you get caught up in the chipsets but I do recall you like mods that provide repeatable results even if they are not the most high end. Do you have any suggestions?
     
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  12. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
    Left Coast
    I like the Pico Matt recommends/uses in his videos. Likewise I think the VTC Mini is a good call, also a single cell unit. With the Mini you can also run the 'myEvic' software upgrade (easy enough to load using the program on the Joytech site. This gives you more options (and lines) on the display which can be a big help (nice, but not necessary. I've used both and they do fine if you have a serious 18650 inside (the power demand is very high). Good for 4 or 5 sessions as I run them.

    I'm using the VTC Dual and Cuboid for the most part to get to dual 18650s. Again, using 'myEvic' updates that among other things is displaying battery in percent. Since I'm currently (I know, terrible pun......but all the good writers seem to be busy writing the comedy passing for evening news these days?) seeing 10 or more sessions per charge so the percent number, divided by ten, is the number of sessions left. That is '63%' means 'at least six more sessions', a nice feature. My only complaint is the suckers 'lose track of time' when you pull the battery out to swap in a fresh one. Small, but annoying? Plugging in the charger before swapping fixes that, if you have one handy.

    Last I checked all four were under $50 from Fasttech where I've bought many of my mods and have had no issues with them (and they are indeed fast relative to others). In fact that's where I just got my Dual from a few weeks back. Nice unit. If you can't make up your mind about 'one cell or two' it comes with two backs so you can change configurations at will. Say routinely use it with two 18650s at home for longer use between charges, then shift over to single cell use for a more compact package when in the field.....with your second 18650 in the other pocket, charged and ready to swap in as needed?

    https://www.fasttech.com/products/0...-authentic-joyetech-evic-vtc-dual-75w-150w-tc

    So there you can get the mod, with your choice of Silicone cases (come in sets of two, one larger than the other), and still get ten bucks back from your fifty?

    Remember, you'll need top shelf 18650s to run them, don't get fooled into big mAh numbers. You won't find any appropriate cells over 3000 mAh. I suggest Sony VTC 5 or 5As as the best of the current offerings. 2600 mAh and 20A as an honest current limit for the VTC5 (plenty of margin for us, even running a single cell). The 5A offers more margin (25 Amps) costing 'only 100 mAh (2500 rather than 2600). I got mine from Orbitronics although guys seem to like IMR Batteries:
    https://www.imrbatteries.com/sony-vtc5a-18650-2600mah-25a-flat-top-battery/. Either seller is known to take great care to avoid counterfeits of which there are many out there. Not a good place to go cheap IMO.

    Remember, the electrolyte (goo inside the cell) is both toxic and flammable. Push it too hard (because it's not a genuine one.....or a sub standard model) and it could get really angry at you and really harsh your mellow......and get you an exciting ride to the hospital? Best avoided.

    Regards to all.

    OF
     
  13. FMSQ

    FMSQ Dab Scientist here seeking knowledge

    Messages:
    6
    Some photos of my updated Hydroquest setup.

    Hydroquest 1.0 (Ni mode | 310°F | 44.5W)
    [​IMG]

    Hydroquest 2.0 (TCR 225 | 35 watts | around 530°F )
    [​IMG]

    Hydroquest 3.0 (TCR 225 | 555°F | 44.4W | 0.27Ω)
    [​IMG]

    Check out this photo album for some melt shots on the 3.0.
    https://imgur.com/a/WKtCp

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
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  14. 2clicker

    2clicker we out there Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    4,780
    your DNA250 is more than capable of handling this. i have been using my Evic Vtwo mini for my V3 because my DNA75 did not seem to like the donuts. well not in the suggested Ni setting it didnt. it regulated great in 316L mode, but was underpowered. i found the Ti setting to work a bit, but it also suffered from being thrown into wattage mode unexpectedly. so today i found some time and dug into the TC curves in Escribe for the first time. its pretty awesome. also on the Evolv DNA forum a reddit user had submitted a ".csv" file for the HVT Sai donuts. i hadnt created any curves yet so i figured it may be a good place to start. so i DLd the .csv file and gave it a shot with a 10mm DT donut. and it TCs it perfectly every time, but its a bit underpowered. i had to up the watts and temp to get a decent vape. so a more aggressive curve was in order, but not much. i looked at all the curves and the two that the DNA didnt like the donuts in all had aggressive curves. the curves that the DNA worked perfectly were less aggressive. so i took the .csv file for the Sai donut and edited it tad more aggressively. and i can now say that my DNA75 is accurately and most importantly consistently TCing the DT donuts flawlessly.

    what i think is happening here is that the stock DNA curves for Nickel (and Titanium?) are more aggressive than those on the Joyetech devices. of course this is all speculation. i have been pretty busy lately and havent had much time to really dig in to Escribe. i know you dont have a V3, but id be more than happy to share my edited .csv file if interested. or we can chat in PM and i can help you out in Escribe. it looks more intimidating than it is. i dont believe youre going to see "M1, M2, & M3" on the DNA chips. to add your own TCR you create a custom material and edit the curve to your liking. i wish i had more experience in AF so that i could compare it to Escribe directly. would probably make explaining things easier here.

    by the way, unless something has changed, stay away from the Yihi chips. at least for this use. they have a dry coil warning feature that cuts the power when it detects the coil isnt submerged in liquid.
     
  15. nosmoking

    nosmoking Fogmonger

    Messages:
    1,307
    Location:
    DC Area
    I agree that my dna250 mod is capable and a good fit for the QQ...I just want a good back up mod that can do the M1, M2 and M3 values for ease of use as well. I think the vtc daul might be what I go with but I have not made up my mind yet.

    I did see that .csv file you mention and I did download it but I have not used it for anything. I dont even think I put it on the mod, its just in Escribe probably. I downloaded some others but I find my Ti settings work really well for what I am looking for. Still trying to keep splatter to a minimum and thats kind of hit or miss for me and I dont think that will change unless the QQ crucible gets taller.

    I actually do have a DTV3. I am not sure how you missed that considering our recent pms but no worries. I never was a big fan of the DTV3. I just don't care for donuts anymore unless its a glazed donut. Once I tried a crucible I never looked back at donuts. I recall trying to push Matt in the direction of a crucible after fitting a Terra 2 crucible in a V3 base about a year ago. I believe he mentioned it was something he was looking into and I sure am glad he came around to with the QQ. Its been the perfect travel companion this weekend.

    Thanks for the heads up on the Yihi mods. Somehow in my researching I never read about them having a dry coil warning. More reason to get that vtc Daul as a backup instead of some fancy mod with a Yihi or Gene chip.
     
  16. 2clicker

    2clicker we out there Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    4,780
    yeah... ugh. my brain has been on overdrive the last few weeks. really strechting myself thin. my bad.

    so you fit the terra 2 cup on top of a donut inside the V3? or did you use the terra heater?
     
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  17. divinetribe

    divinetribe We are trying our hardest to become Medical Grade Manufacturer

    Messages:
    251
    Location:
    Arcata, Humboldt California
    Hello
    I am excited to say that after 60 or 70 uses the 2nd batch quest is going strong, OF was correct , battery lasts longer, the whole piece does not seem to get as hot, the ohms have fluctuated from .23 to .26 over the past week because of some of the tests I have been putting it through. I have been using several types of mods and I have taken the whole piece apart once and have also unscrewed the 510 pin and the flathead screws to clean with an alcohol wipe for any reclaim built up through usage. I am at .24ohm now, Anyone that comes into my shop or around me at music shows I attend become victim to this testing process. I am putting it through the works and it is handling my tough tests. I have done a few rod and quartz cleanings by getting the rods semi red-hot while holding upside down. this piece will not leak but it will get build up.
    S/n# 0 -1000 if you purchased from this first batch please make sure you are on the email list for the 2nd batch upgrade.
    Click to play YouTube Video
     
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  18. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Super news! I wouldn't put much stock in that 'OF was correct' stuff, it had to happen sooner or later.....

    Sounds even better that the back of this here envelope predicted, most cool. Another idea comes to mind that's helping the heat buildup I think, the thermal connection to the heatsink is no longer throttled by having to go through the 510 connector that's no longer there? Now it's all one piece, the HS section is a bit warmer, but the base is a lot cooler now that more of the heat leaked into it is conducted away promptly! No time for those nasty little leaked calories to gang up and get stuff too hot.

    The idea of 'fiddle free sessions' is attractive indeed. Until it's replaced the current QQ is going to get more use from me, but the upgraded version seems improved in many key areas.

    On a somewhat related topic, I've been using the iSmok TC 100W, another dual 18650 mod but it uses them in parallel, not series, so the total is 3.7 nominal, you can run with a single cell if you wish. I got it for V2.5 and used to carry spare concentrate on one side. It's like a dual cell Pico. Like Pico it can't use the myEvic software though. IMO that software is superior for two reasons, first it shows an extra digit on resistance and shows it dynamically (that is you can watch it change as it heats up). Secondly it lets you increase the 10 second limit to 25 so you can do a session without 'chain hitting' the power when it times out. I keep forgetting the ten second limit on both Pico and now the TC 100W. A hit or two into the adventure it's easy to space that detail out........at least for me.

    Anyway, thanks for the update, Matt. It's sure to be a welcome winner, and coming soon.

    Regards to all.

    OF
     
  19. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
    Left Coast
    So I've been rolling this over in what's left of my mind and it occurred to me that there's no need to guess, a simple and kinda fun experiment proves (or at least gives further insight to) the idea. Heat it up dry and let it coast for a bit until you're no longer really really afraid to touch the top metal and then feel the heatsink. Not so warm? This one could be doing a better job. Heatsinks work best as hot as you can get them....... That is they can give up heat to the air as fast as they are hotter if you will? Higher temperature HS means more calories per minute. Another way to look at it is there's an insulator in the way of the heat? There's a 'temperature drop' there, indicating the resistance to heat flow, since the path gets so narrow for both electricity and heat. By removing that bottleneck for the heat, more will flow into the heatsink making it hotter and therefore more efficient pulling yet more heat from the area we don't want it.

    Most cool. OK, cooler where we want it. Perhaps a different design could be cooler and still practical and boast of 'most cool' status, but this is, I think, a big old step forward for the good guys. You can still burn yourself if you try I'm sure, but it'll take more effort on your part......

    OF
     
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  20. xlr8shun

    xlr8shun Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    260
    are we supposed to be locking the ohms using TCR on the QQ?

    i was under the impression that we are supposed to lock the ohms in normal circumstances like this, but i dont recall it ever being said either way.

    thanks!
     
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  21. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,223
    Location:
    Left Coast
    FWIW I am.

    OF
     
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  22. xlr8shun

    xlr8shun Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    260
    first impressions...

    i just received my QQ yesterday.. was busy with errands, so i didn't even check the mailbox till this morning.

    its slow at work, so i brought it with me. unpackaged and attached QQ without heatsink to evic vtc mini and read .29 ohms. then i reattached with heatsink to evic vtc mini and read .30 ohms.

    did not lock ohm's, proceeded to do a burn off. glad i did. waited for it to cool a bit, cleaned with 1 included wipe and qtip, very convenient. attempted to do a second burn off.. and had some issues, ohms now .45 and throwing me into power mode..

    ohms shouldn't be .45 after 1 burn off, but i get it, hotter = more resistance.. thinking to myself, i should have locked the ohms.. so i cheated and put it in the freezer for like 60 seconds. rolled it around in my hands to try and warm it back up just a bit and after a bit of playing around with it, back to .30 ohm and locked the resistance.

    this time with resistance locked, i did a second burn off. no visible vapor/smoke, so i declared it clean and waited for it to cool a bit for the first load. i put some small crumbs, about 1/2 a dabs worth, in the cup replaced the cap and proceeded to heat, which kicked me out to wattage mode after about 3 seconds.. then kicked me out immediately after repeated attempts. by this time crumbs have melted to 1 and not able to be handled anymore so i don't want to disassemble and lose what i put in..

    unlocked the resistance and noticed that the mod was reading the QQ at .39... waited for it to cool back down and once it became room temp, it was at .30 again. so i gave it another shot, and it worked flawlessly.. ended up with like 5-6 hits from that little bit and was RIPPED.

    thanks all for their information, helped me understand and figure out the device on the fly.
     
    Danksta, jpdnkstr, OF and 1 other person like this.
  23. tennisguru1

    tennisguru1 Active Member

    Messages:
    207
    Would my Vista Vape Bubbler work?
    Or pinnacle water tool?
     
  24. tylerj55

    tylerj55 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    240
    Location:
    MD
  25. Tuck

    Tuck Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    267
    I just got a vaporesso tarot mod with the veco tank hoping to make my own ejuice. Unfortunately, my lungs don't tolerate the pg or vg in the wax liquidizer. So I want to repurpose this thing. Can I use this battery(mod?) with a divine tribe atty for a load as you go device? sorry if this is a dumb question. I'm kinda new to all the mods and stuff. I've used load as you go pens like the yocan but nothing like this before.

    this is what I ordered.

    https://www.vapordna.com/Vaporesso-Tarot-Nano-80W-TC-Starter-Kit-p/vaptns.htm

    It sounds like once you go QQ you never go back? So should I just go straight to QQ if this thing will work?
     
    OF likes this.

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