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Die-hard combustion mindset needs reforming.

Discussion in 'Cannabis News and Activism' started by FlyingLow, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. FlyingLow

    FlyingLow Team NO SLEEP!

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    What are the best scientific and medical journal articles that provide solid evidence that vaporizing MJ is a healthier alternative to MJ combustion? When I look up the subject with typical keywords, I am overwhelmed with results and not sure who the most credible sources are.


    While I know it is ridiculous for anyone to take a stance against vaping, but being that it is still a federally illegal substance I did not know if there is any scientific and medical sources that I could present to the world's greatest skeptic.

    He specifically argues that MJ consumption is consumption; be it by vape or by fire [and soot].
    ...I argue he is a numbskull and not worth the effort. But that numbskull is a relative so I figured I would take the higher ground (;)) and educate with a few well regarded sources.

    Thanks!
     
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  2. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Google scholar is your friend! The google that searches academic publications and patents :D

    Don't search normal google when you want the facts!
     
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  3. DieHard

    DieHard Vertical transportation specialist.

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    What...huh...?? Someone say DieHard?...:lmao:




    Sorry couldn't resist!
     
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  4. FlyingLow

    FlyingLow Team NO SLEEP!

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    ^ROTFLMAO!!!




    Thanks Herbivore! I have never heard of that:D
     
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  5. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

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    I saw a great chart once but can't find it now.
    It gave relevant % which were approx:
    smoking gives you 90+ % combustion by-products/ bad things like benzene etc with less than 10% being the good MJ chemicals.
    vaping gives you 90 + % the good/active MJ chemical and 10% misc .

    It's kind of a no brainer but hard to convince some
     
  6. Jared

    Jared Cannabis Enthusiast

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    Well this is far from scientific but from the sound of this guy he doesn't get too caught up in silly things like "facts" and "sources."

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Puffers

    Puffers Micro-Climate Mastermind

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    https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/cpb/58/2/58_2_201/_pdf

    Really intersting study on the cannabinoid content in vapor vs smoke. Not surprisingly they conclude that vaporizing is a safer form of administration because of the lack of compounds caused by pyrolytic degradation. I did find it interesting to note that there were 23 cannabinoids in smoke that weren't in vapor. Several of them were even unclassified and some are just caused by degradation in the combustion process.
     
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  8. Deja Vu

    Deja Vu Show compassion to animals

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    I like this a lot. Saved and printed it out to show non-believers!
     
  9. Jethro

    Jethro Well-Known Member

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    You know, I find this a hard discussion to have with people in general. Reason being, it seems contradictory to me to claim using drugs in any way shape or form to be "healthy". I know this is a vaporizing community here, but honestly, if you are concerned at all with how healthy something is, you shouldn't do it at all. You don't have to do it. You can use MMJ by eating it. Like the discussions about how healthy a vaporizer is- of course we don't want to be vaporizing lead or mercury or whatever, but if people are concerned they shouldn't really be inhaling anything but a mix of nitrogen and oxygen. I use electronic cigarettes after smoking tobacco for 25 years and everyone says to me, "Oh how great, that must be much healthier" but I don't do it to be healthier, I do it to save money and it doesn't stink, doesn't turn my teeth yellow and I can do it in my non-smoking rental home. If I was in any way concerned with the health of my nicotine consumption I would quit it completely. And until the FDA tells us vaporizing propylene glycol and vegetable glycol is healthier than burning cigarettes, we can't honestly say, can we? It certainly stands to reason that it's healthier, but we don't know for sure until the FDA speaks up. And that is with e-cigs- we are likely not going to have the FDA study the benefits of vaporizing cannabis but hopefully we will be able to extract some knowledge when they release the results of their extensive studies on e-cigs.

    That said, there are some facts which I am sure you have presented to your skeptical relative that are undeniable. Probably best to stick to those points in a debate. One advantage to vaporizing that we know for sure is how the medicine is presented to our bodies. At 800-1000+ degrees many of the goodies are lost to combustion. This is easy to prove- the effects are so much different with the same strains of cannabis. And like e-cigs it doesn't stink like a campfire. It's also more efficient as you can extract as much as possible with vaporizing. And the flavor obviously.

    The benefits are many, but I don't think the health benefit is a good one to debate at the moment.
     
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  10. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    Yet the health concerns raised about e-cigs are precisely around PG and VG, as well as the materials used in the tanks and wicks... but we use neither in our dry herbs vapes, so there will be little to extrapolate from the FDA studies unfortunately.

    I agree that in all cases it's a bit prematurate to use the health benefit argument though, even if we all feel it is a clear improvement over combustion.
     
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  11. Jared

    Jared Cannabis Enthusiast

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    http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/...-Drastically-Reduce-Toxins-in-Marijuana-Smoke



    I don't think its premature at all to say that vaporizing is healthier than smoking. In fact I would even go so far as to say it is incredibly ignorant to think otherwise. Maybe not on the ecig side of things since its pretty much unknown what the long term affects of inhaling massive amounts of PG/VG are.

    We already know cannabis is reasonably safe to inhale, as in it isn't giving people cancer left and right like cigarettes.

    Now take away most if not all of the tar from smoking, and all the hundreds of carcinogens formed from combustion...


    How could anyone not see that vaporizing is healthier? (Assuming the vaporizer in question is using safe innert materials.)
     
  12. Jethro

    Jethro Well-Known Member

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    But the thing is this... here in the USA, if I for example had 20 million dollars to fund an independent study with scientists and doctors and all that... no matter what I discovered it wouldn't mean a damn thing until the FDA says so. In that respect we not only can't say what is healthier, but it wouldn't matter anyway.
     
  13. Deja Vu

    Deja Vu Show compassion to animals

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    How does the FDA backing the info make it mean anything more? FDA believes that McDonald's is real food, and that is scientifically proven to be garbage. The facts still remain and still hold value. We absolutely can say vaporizing it is healthier.
     
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  14. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Salutations FlyingLow,

    Oh well, in that case!...

    I'd compare combustion vs vaporisation to charcoal vs beaf steak (the one that's cooking on top).

    Charcoal comes in only one dull format: toxic. With vaporizers one gets a wide range of options which varies from rare to done to fossil-carbonized (in models allowing combustion temperatures that is - and there ain't too many of those).

    At least i'd explain this fellow that people like me are making cannabic cookies with their ABV, something i couldn't do using an ashtray (i'm a former smoker)...

    Just like it wouldn't be the same to attempt to cook fine-cuisine in the oven of a metallurgical foundry forge i guess.

    [​IMG]

    Now, about mister numbskull, euh...


    Not conclusive...

    Hummm... Oh my! There's no way i can say all the things Google has shown me...

    :peace:
     
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  15. Jethro

    Jethro Well-Known Member

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    Because in the US we the people have given the FDA the responsibility of determining what and what isn't hazardous to put in our bodies and manage what is commercially available to do so by big pharma. I hear what you are saying, but it is slightly akin to me saying climate change is a problem and you saying it's not. Neither one of us has the credentials to be an authority.

    Any reasonably thinking person can say that vaporizing is healthier than combusting. It certainly stands to reason doesn't it? It also stood to reason that OJ Simpson was a murderer but look at that outcome. The Achilles heel is the US Government. And I know on a very pro-pot forum such as this, talking about letting the Govt. dictate anything is not popular, but it's the system we made and have to live by. McDonalds is certainly real food, it's made of real food and while it's horribly unhealthy, it is in fact food.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly! It's healthier, it's got to be. But thanks to capitalism you have to be careful. Don't forget, there were doctors that were saying cigarettes don't cause cancer not so long ago. It's the FDA that is supposed to determine that for us without external motivation or agendas (which may or may not happen- could be a whole 'nutha debate...)
     
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  16. Jared

    Jared Cannabis Enthusiast

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    Maybe if you worship, or even respect the government's opinion or something.

    I sure don't.


    "We the people" haven't done shit in a long time. Our government is controlled by massive corporations and lobbyists.

    Why do you think cannabis is still a schedule one narcotic?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ter-in-elections-this-chart-says-youre-wrong/

    91% of the time the better funded candidate wins. That would be fine if corporations and lobbyists couldn't funnel massive amounts of money into their campaign and not even have to account for it or say it was them that gave it. But they can and do.

    If the FDA tells me its no longer safe to drink clean water tomorrow you won't see me going thirsty.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
  17. Deja Vu

    Deja Vu Show compassion to animals

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    Word, I get where you are coming from completely. Until FDA does get it's ass into gear and look into the vast world of vaporizing we will not have ALL the facts to back our claims. Wouldn't rely on it anytime soon though :( Their priorities most likely lie in approving more of Monsanto's GMO seeds :lol:
     
  18. R.John.Blake

    R.John.Blake Active Member

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    I think you went a bit off on a tangent. The OP was about "healthier" and not necessarily "healthy."

    Either way, I don't need the approval or disapproval of the FDA, a bureaucratic organization that can't get its own facts straight on cannabis, to tell me whether or not vaping is a healthier alternative to combusting cannabis. While I can't speak for every device, I have a strong justified belief (which I would refer to as knowledge) that my vaping habits with my particular vapes are healthier than combusting.

    Fortunately I'm not an evangelical vaporist since I'd be pretty piss poor at convincing people of what I believe in this regard. And frankly, I have no interest in converting anyone who doesn't care enough to do their own research on the matter since I could be very wrong.
     
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  19. Jethro

    Jethro Well-Known Member

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    Actually the OP was about "evidence" or "science". The point I am trying to make is there is none and there is likely to be none for a long time and possibly never. Until then technically anything you or I say about it being healthier is subjective.
     
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  20. R.John.Blake

    R.John.Blake Active Member

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    You mean until the FDA says so, right? It's hard to resolve your adherence to skepticism but confidence in FDA edicts which pretty much makes everything else you write harder to decipher.
     
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  21. Jared

    Jared Cannabis Enthusiast

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    There's plenty of scientific evidence that would lead any critically thinking person to believe vaping to be a TON safer than smoking. Just because the FDA hasn't said it doesn't mean it isn't true. There can be scientific experiments and tests done that don't involve the FDA that hold just as much water as if they did to me and most other people in this world. Stop saying there's not any evidence because there is.

    http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/...-Drastically-Reduce-Toxins-in-Marijuana-Smoke

    http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v11n1/11120gie.html
     
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  22. Gunky

    Gunky Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who has ever switched from combustion to vaping knows it's better for you. That said, I am distrustful of people going all missionary and trying to do good to their fellow man and woman.
     
  23. samantabha

    samantabha climbing the mountain of the mind

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    I agree that the FDA can't be the arbiter of our decisions as to whether a product is "healthy' or not. There are many studies, done over a long span of time, showing a clear role for animal protein in various cancers. T. Colin Campbell, in his groundbreaking work with aflatoxin (a peanut contaminant), built on the earlier work of Indian researchers, in showing how liver cancer was actually turned on or off depending on the amount of animal protein introduced into the diet along with the toxin. Although this research has been out there for years and was performed under strict scientific methodology, this has not been acknowledged by most mainstream health 'experts' nor the FDA. On the other side, we have the case for aspartame; the FDA refused to budge on approving it for years. Then a pro-industry hack got on to the committee and the approval was pushed through. Hence, we now have a substance, shown to be poisonous to the cellular mechanism, out there being purchased by kids in the form of gums, candies, sodas, you name it. I understand that as a society we more or less have to follow the dictates of our governmental health authorities, but determining the relative healthiness of a specific product is not something I would leave wholly up to the FDA. That group is influenced by $$$ big time.
     
  24. chris 71

    chris 71 Well-Known Member

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    if i remember correctly aflatoxin is a byproduct of a type of mold or fungus that also can grow on cannabis if i am remembering right its what the mold or fungus kinda craps out.
    its supposed to glow a green color under a black light.
    apparently its this that can make us sick as opposed to the mold or fungus its self it. i wonder if vaping contaminated weed would be worse then smoking in this case (maybe smoking would destroy it more ? ) ..i dont know food for thought ?
     
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  25. Jared

    Jared Cannabis Enthusiast

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    Well I would hope no one here is smoking moldy weed. If they are, whether to smoke it or vape it should be the least of their worries...
     
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