Decarboxylization: what's going on

[pakalolo]

I have started carboxylating mine. 25 minutes wrapped tightly at 230-250 deg. Vapes a lot easier.

I think you mean decarboxylating. That will certainly dry it out and make it easier to vapourize but it destroys a lot of the terpenoids that provide flavour. You only need to decarboxylate when you intend to make edibles. Vapourizing (and smoking) automatically decarboxylate as you are heating the load. I recommend you use a method that doesn't heat it up, you'll enjoy the taste a lot more.

 

[deadheadbill]

I think you mean decarboxylating. That will certainly dry it out and make it easier to vapourize but it destroys a lot of the terpenoids that provide flavour. You only need to decarboxylate when you intend to make edibles. Vapourizing (and smoking) automatically decarboxylate as you are heating the load. I recommend you use a method that doesn't heat it up, you'll enjoy the taste a lot more.

Yeah, I meant decarboxylating. I should have been more detailed about what I was saying.

I know it removes some of the terps, but it also removes a lot of the smell. So, I only do it for when I will be using the box in a stealthy environment where stealth is more important than taste. Which is 99% of my LB usage. At home I use the LSV and in party environments I used my Iolite before it was stolen.

I'm in the market for a party portable right now. Probably either a InhXP or a Ascent.

 

[pakalolo]

Yeah, I meant decarboxylating. I should have been more detailed about what I was saying.

I know it removes some of the terps, but it also removes a lot of the smell. So, I only do it for when I will be using the box in a stealthy environment where stealth is more important than taste. Which is 99% of my LB usage. At home I use the LSV and in party environments I used my Iolite before it was stolen.

I'm in the market for a party portable right now. Probably either a InhXP or a Ascent.

Yes, the terpenoids also provide a lot of the aroma (smell is actually most of what we perceive as taste). That's an angle I hadn't thought of, decarboxylating to make it stealthier. Interesting approach.

 

[luchiano]

I think you mean decarboxylating. That will certainly dry it out and make it easier to vapourize but it destroys a lot of the terpenoids that provide flavour. You only need to decarboxylate when you intend to make edibles. Vapourizing (and smoking) automatically decarboxylate as you are heating the load. I recommend you use a method that doesn't heat it up, you'll enjoy the taste a lot more.

Vaping, and smoking, doesn't carboxylate all of the acids. It has been shown that some thca is released into the vapor. Smoking will burn a lot of thc before it has a chance to be released. Also, when you decarboxylate your herb before vaping/smoking, you get a release of vapor much quicker then you would normally which gives a quicker effect, and more concentrated vapor due to not needing a long inhale to get the actual thc to be released.

If you use the oven method, you should just wrap your herb tight into something like non-bleached parchment paper, then when done put into a refrigerator so the oils, and flavored substances can condense back into the herb before unwrapping the package, and exposing the herb to the air. Also, so you can prevent a lot of oxygen getting into the thc, and converting it to cbn. Make sure you use herb that isn't bone dry or you won't get the best results.

 

[pakalolo]

Vaping, and smoking, doesn't carboxylate all of the acids. It has been shown that some thca is released into the vapor. Smoking will burn a lot of thc before it has a chance to be released. Also, when you decarboxylate your herb before vaping/smoking, you get a release of vapor much quicker then you would normally which gives a quicker effect, and more concentrated vapor due to not needing a long inhale to get the actual thc to be released.

I think you mean decarboxylating. If vapourizing and smoking don't decarboxylate everything, I'm pretty sure gentle heating isn't likely to do it, so your point is moot.

I don't understand how decarboxylation promotes faster vapour release, and I'm certainly having trouble understanding how shorter inhales give more concentrated vapour.

 

[luchiano]

I think you mean decarboxylating. If vapourizing and smoking don't decarboxylate everything, I'm pretty sure gentle heating isn't likely to do it, so your point is moot.

I don't understand how decarboxylation promotes faster vapour release, and I'm certainly having trouble understanding how shorter inhales give more concentrated vapour.

Yeah, I meant decarboxylation.

The reason why the oven method is better then straight vaporizing or smoking, is because the time the herb is surrounded by the heat is much longer then if you were to inhale straight hot air over the herb. When you do that, you don't give it enough time for the enzymes to do their thing, as well as other things we don't know yet. Plus you dry out your herb much faster, while wrapping the herb prevents any dryness from occurring, and moisture is needed for these things to occur efficiently.

It promotes faster release because the acid that binds to thc, is not there anymore so once the heat hits the thc, and other cannabinoids as well being that they have acids attach to them, nothing is holding it back from boiling off as soon as the heat hits it. This is assuming you are using a temperature within the range it boils off at. Shorter inhales give more concentrated vapor, in this case, because less air is diluting the vapor released from the herb being that nothing is attached to the thc as I already explained. You also help breakdown the chlorophyll which is why the "weed" smell isn't there as much so it is more stealthy.

I came up with this method, along with a few others in the Overgrow days, back in 2004/2005. It might not sound like it makes sense until you think more about it, and do it right.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

I think you're confusing shorter with slower. If it's shorter, then it's 3 seconds vs 5. Assuming vapor production and inhale are both constant, why would there be a difference in vapor:air ratio?

 

[pakalolo]

Yeah, I meant decarboxylation.

The reason why the oven method is better then straight vaporizing or smoking, is because the time the herb is surrounded by the heat is much longer then if you were to inhale straight hot air over the herb. When you do that, you don't give it enough time for the enzymes to do their thing, as well as other things we don't know yet. Plus you dry out your herb much faster, while wrapping the herb prevents any dryness from occurring, and moisture is needed for these things to occur efficiently.

It promotes faster release because the acid that binds to thc, is not there anymore so once the heat hits the thc, and other cannabinoids as well being that they have acids attach to them, nothing is holding it back from boiling off as soon as the heat hits it. This is assuming you are using a temperature within the range it boils off at. Shorter inhales give more concentrated vapor, in this case, because less air is diluting the vapor released from the herb being that nothing is attached to the thc as I already explained. You also help breakdown the chlorophyll which is why the "weed" smell isn't there as much so it is more stealthy.

I came up with this method, along with a few others in the Overgrow days, back in 2004/2005. It might not sound like it makes sense until you think more about it, and do it right.

Decarboxylating is a chemical reaction caused by heat and has nothing to do with enzymes. It is a well-understood reaction in organic chemistry so I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to things we don't know yet.

The idea here was to dry the cannabis so wrapping it to prevent dryness is contra-indicated, not to mention that like enzymes, moisture plays no role in decarboxylation itself, although moisture can slow the process down by absorbing some of the heat.

I am not aware that removing the carboxyl group does anything to lower the boiling point. The boiling point is only the highest temperature at which vapour forms anyway. Lots of vapour is released well below the boiling point. Water starts releasing vapour somewhere around 55°C, for example.

As Quetzalcoatl says, shorter inhales by themselves don't change the vapour to air ratio.

Finally, chlorophyll is a pigment and does not affect the smell, that comes from terpenoids. Incidentally, back in the 50s chlorophyll became all the rage as an odour-remover, and you can still find products today that make that claim, although it's nonsense.

 

[OF]

Finally, chlorophyll is a pigment and does not affect the smell, that comes from terpenoids. Incidentally, back in the 50s chlorophyll became all the rage as an odour-remover, and you can still find products today that make that claim, although it's nonsense.

Yeah, I recall that scandal.....it was the Redsyn that was actually making your breath smell sweet, wasn't it?

Not to add some more fuel to the fire, I recall someone mentioning controlling the smell of bud by quickly vaping off a few hits at home (getting rid of the tasty but smelly part) then taking the rest of the load with you for discrete use later. I've tried it a few times, it works well and is kinda fun. Not a good plan for cloud chasers though. Only for a little 'top up' on the sly.

OF

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Decarboxylating is a chemical reaction caused by heat and has nothing to do with enzymes. It is a well-understood reaction in organic chemistry so I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to things we don't know yet.

I think I get what he means. Since decarbing is a chemical reaction caused by heat, he's figuring that there is some "energy loss" (no actual loss due to the law of conservation of mass) when you put herb in that hasn't been decarboxylated. You would need more heat/energy to decarboxylate the cannabis before vaporizing it. I don't know if it translates to an observable real-world improvement since you'd be skipping the decarb phase and using all the heat/energy to vape the cannabinoids vs heat -> decarb -> vape.

Does that even make sense? I'm really stoned, this Super Silver Haze is way stronger than I anticipated.

Not to add some more fuel to the fire, I recall someone mentioning controlling the smell of bud by quickly vaping off a few hits at home (getting rid of the tasty but smelly part) then taking the rest of the load with you for discrete use later. I've tried it a few times, it works well and is kinda fun. Not a good plan for cloud chasers though. Only for a little 'top up' on the sly.

OF

You can do the same thing by water-curing your bud. The water leeches the terpenoids/flavinoids from the cannabis but leaves the cannabinoids due to very low water solubilities. Lots of reports of even the smoke not smelling much like weed. Plus, since the mass is reduced, it is a bit more potent by weight, but again I'm not sure how much more. Just info I've picked up from a lot of late-night reading sessions...

 

[luchiano]

I think you're confusing shorter with slower. If it's shorter, then it's 3 seconds vs 5. Assuming vapor production and inhale are both constant, why would there be a difference in vapor:air ratio?

That is why I stated, "in this case". What I meant was your inhales are shorter due to the actives boiling off faster then normally. Slower is better overall because the hot air has more time to stay in contact with the herb which allows more actives to be released into the hot air, and less air that has no actives, filling your lungs on each inhale.

Decarboxylating is a chemical reaction caused by heat and has nothing to do with enzymes. It is a well-understood reaction in organic chemistry so I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to things we don't know yet.

The idea here was to dry the cannabis so wrapping it to prevent dryness is contra-indicated, not to mention that like enzymes, moisture plays no role in decarboxylation itself, although moisture can slow the process down by absorbing some of the heat.

I am not aware that removing the carboxyl group does anything to lower the boiling point. The boiling point is only the highest temperature at which vapour forms anyway. Lots of vapour is released well below the boiling point. Water starts releasing vapour somewhere around 55°C, for example.

As Quetzalcoatl says, shorter inhales by themselves don't change the vapour to air ratio.

Finally, chlorophyll is a pigment and does not affect the smell, that comes from terpenoids. Incidentally, back in the 50s chlorophyll became all the rage as an odour-remover, and you can still find products today that make that claim, although it's nonsense.

There are two forms of decarboxylation, one with just heat, and one with enzymes. The enzyme version involves vitamin b6. This is why you don't necessarily need to heat herb just to get an effect when ingesting it. Eating it with the right foods will get the same effect. The things we don't know yet, means just that, there are things we don't know yet about what is happening with plants, when they are heated.

I helped create this method, and it wasn't to dry the herb, it was to get a better effect from the herb when smoking or vaping. The process isn't slowed down due to the enzymes doing their thing. If you go too high, you degrade the enzymes, and now you have to rely on heat to do it's thing but with that comes other problems.

Of course actives boil a little at lower temperatures, but who wants to wait a while when you can get them immediately. That is a major reason why we are vaping instead of eating.


Chlorophyll is a pigment that gives off that weed smell, that most people know weed for when it is heated. If you burn a green leaf, it gives off the same smell. Lack of chlorophyll is why hash doesn't smell like bud, when it is heated, and it is full of terpenoids.

MANY people who try this method love it, so I feel there is no need to keep explaining myself anymore. Even on this forum people are loving it, yet you are making it seem like I'm speculating. I'm just explaining to you what is happening, and why you are doing it.

 

[dormouse]

Would I get the same effect by just leaving the Solo on for a couple of minutes before inhaling?

 

[pakalolo]

There are two forms of decarboxylation, one with just heat, and one with enzymes. The enzyme version involves vitamin b6. This is why you don't necessarily need to heat herb just to get an effect when ingesting it. Eating it with the right foods will get the same effect. The things we don't know yet, means just that, there are things we don't know yet about what is happening with plants, when they are heated.

I helped create this method, and it wasn't to dry the herb, it was to get a better effect from the herb when smoking or vaping. The process isn't slowed down due to the enzymes doing their thing. If you go too high, you degrade the enzymes, and now you have to rely on heat to do it's thing but with that comes other problems.

Of course actives boil a little at lower temperatures, but who wants to wait a while when you can get them immediately. That is a major reason why we are vaping instead of eating.

Chlorophyll is a pigment that gives off that weed smell, that most people know weed for when it is heated. If you burn a green leaf, it gives off the same smell. Lack of chlorophyll is why hash doesn't smell like bud, when it is heated, and it is full of terpenoids.

MANY people who try this method love it, so I feel there is no need to keep explaining myself anymore. Even on this forum people are loving it, yet you are making it seem like I'm speculating. I'm just explaining to you what is happening, and why you are doing it.

When I referred to decarboxylation as a heat reaction I was assuming this discussion was only in the context of heating cannabis. I'm aware that there are different ways, but I have never seen anything before that mentions enzymes in connection with cannabis. It has long been known that some decarboxylation occurs just through curing (Cultivation, extraction and analysis of Cannabis sativa. Doorenbos, N.J., Feyerman, P.S., Quimby, M.W. & Turner, C.E. 1971). Let's assume this is due to enzymes. I don't see how relevant the reaction would be given the slowness and low percentage involved. This started out as a discussion about heating, however. If any decarboxylation is happening because of enzymes when heating is involved it is difficult to see why it wouldn't be overwhelmed by the energy of heating. If enzymes are doing the job why is heat needed at all? Citing some scientific evidence for your enzyme claim would be good.

 

[Dr. Yan-I-Tor]

That is why I stated, "in this case". What I meant was your inhales are shorter due to the actives boiling off faster then normally. Slower is better overall because the hot air has more time to stay in contact with the herb which allows more actives to be released into the hot air, and less air that has no actives, filling your lungs on each inhale.




There are two forms of decarboxylation, one with just heat, and one with enzymes. The enzyme version involves vitamin b6. This is why you don't necessarily need to heat herb just to get an effect when ingesting it. Eating it with the right foods will get the same effect. The things we don't know yet, means just that, there are things we don't know yet about what is happening with plants, when they are heated.

I helped create this method, and it wasn't to dry the herb, it was to get a better effect from the herb when smoking or vaping. The process isn't slowed down due to the enzymes doing their thing. If you go too high, you degrade the enzymes, and now you have to rely on heat to do it's thing but with that comes other problems.

Of course actives boil a little at lower temperatures, but who wants to wait a while when you can get them immediately. That is a major reason why we are vaping instead of eating.


Chlorophyll is a pigment that gives off that weed smell, that most people know weed for when it is heated. If you burn a green leaf, it gives off the same smell. Lack of chlorophyll is why hash doesn't smell like bud, when it is heated, and it is full of terpenoids.

MANY people who try this method love it, so I feel there is no need to keep explaining myself anymore. Even on this forum people are loving it, yet you are making it seem like I'm speculating. I'm just explaining to you what is happening, and why you are doing it.

So chlorophyll alone causes dank smell. So why doesn't my lawn, ornamental pear tree, or Norway spruce smell like sour D?

 

[luchiano]

So chlorophyll alone causes dank smell. So why doesn't my lawn, ornamental pear tree, or Norway spruce smell like sour D?

Read it again!

The HEATING of the green herb gives it that smell, particularly at high dry temperatures, that people associate with herb. Like I stated, get a green leaf off of a tree, burn it, and you will notice it smells like burning bud. This is the last, I post on this, unless it's about techniques. Others have enjoyed it, so I don't feel I have to keep proving myself. I gave you instructions on what to do, you either do it or you don't, it's on you.

 

[pakalolo]

Read it again!

The HEATING of the green herb gives it that smell, particularly at high dry temperatures, that people associate with herb. Like I stated, get a green leaf off of a tree, burn it, and you will notice it smells like burning bud. This is the last, I post on this, unless it's about techniques. Others have enjoyed it, so I don't feel I have to keep proving myself. I gave you instructions on what to do, you either do it or you don't, it's on you.

Chlorophyll smells like chlorophyll. Cannabis has its own smell, which comes from the terpenoids. It is not the smell of chlorophyll.

 

[Dr. Yan-I-Tor]

Read it again!

The HEATING of the green herb gives it that smell, particularly at high dry temperatures, that people associate with herb. Like I stated, get a green leaf off of a tree, burn it, and you will notice it smells like burning bud. This is the last, I post on this, unless it's about techniques. Others have enjoyed it, so I don't feel I have to keep proving myself. I gave you instructions on what to do, you either do it or you don't, it's on you.

If what you're purporting were actually true, any time anyone cooked anything, the kitchen would reek of marijuana. Simple reason this is not the case is because although the many spices, fruits, and vegetables humans commonly cook with contain chlorophyll, CHLOROPHYLL DOES NOT SMELL LIKE CANNABIS (when heated or otherwise)

 

[luchiano]

If what you're purporting were actually true, any time anyone cooked anything, the kitchen would reek of marijuana. Simple reason this is not the case is because although the many spices, fruits, and vegetables humans commonly cook with contain chlorophyll, CHLOROPHYLL DOES NOT SMELL LIKE CANNABIS (when heated or otherwise)

THEY DO!.

Burn some sage, and ask someone if it smells like burning herb.

Burn some oregano, and ask the same question.

Burn a bidi(indian cigarette of tobacco wrap in a green leaf), and ask someone if it reminds them of someone smoking herb.

The reason why tobacco, doesn't give you that feeling, is because the chlorophyll is gone during curing.

BTW, I didn't state the chlorophyll is the only smell, but it is what people associate with burning or heated cannabis.

What's funny is I have heard so many people say this, yet you two are the ones going against me like this is something I'm making up. People...People....People

Chlorophyll smells like chlorophyll. Cannabis has its own smell, which comes from the terpenoids. It is not the smell of chlorophyll.

Yeah, when it isn't heated up to high temperatures.

Keep disagreeing with me, even though so many people have experienced this for themselves.

Since you just love to disagree with me on this, can you answer why does hash smell so different from green bud, and brown bud smells much less like green bud?.

EDIT: Mods, I did a back to back post by mistake, and don't know how to fix it. Sorry.

mod note: Fixed, thanks for noticing.

 

[Dr. Yan-I-Tor]

I've burned many spices as I've learned to cook over the years. Never once has it smelled like weed.






Edit: who else is agreeing with you? :confused:

 

[scottio19]

Thc off the plant is in carboxylic acid form, so it has a carboxyl group attached to it. Decarboxylation is a spontaneous process. Temperature, pressure, and humidity just increase the rate of the reaction. I'm calling shenanigans on enzymes.

 

[luchiano]

I've burned many spices as I've learned to cook over the years. Never once has it smelled like weed.






Edit: who else is agreeing with you? :confused:

Here you go:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/110667
"I just found that burning sage smells quite a lot like burning marijuana (they don't smell the same when not burning). Dose sage have similar effects to that of THC? Does it contain THC? Is it a bad Idea for me to try and smoke it?"

http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/bookofshadows/ig/Magical-Herbs/Sage.htm
"In magic, carry sage leaves in your wallet or purse to promote financial gain. Burn leaves to increase wisdom or gain guidance from your spirit guide (be warned - burning sage does smell similar to marijuana, so keep that in mind if you think the neighbors might be inquisitive)"

http://forum.grasscity.com/general/685104-what-else-smells-like-weed-3.html
"this.

i remember being with my friend and his dad when i was younger, walking down the street going somewhere. we started to get a very strong odor, me and my friend looked at each other, and were like "do you smell that?" but it was so awkward cause his dad was there haha. it ended up being a shop down the street with a huge bundle of sage burning out front. smells just like weed."

http://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/...-does-weed-smell-like-worried-dd-smoking.html
"weed normally a musky kind of smell depending on which type, it reminds me of burning leaves from garden but stronger"

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071127144330AA9zPWE
"Why does pot (marijuana) smell alot like burning leaves?
dude, i dont do drugs. im just wondering. cause i was in jamaica, and it was EVERYWHERE!!! and then my friends and i were burning some leaves in my backyard, and i noticed it smelled similar. just kinda a random question."

You can find the rest, yourself

 

[Dr. Yan-I-Tor]

Quoting the hearsay of other forums provides no scientific empirical evidence that burning anything containing chlorophyll emits an order that could be confused with marijuana.

For all you know it could be the burning of marijuana cellulose and that of sage that makes the people in your examples think they smell the same.


I don't really understand where you're getting the information for these claims lol

 

[luchiano]

Quoting the hearsay of other forums provides no scientific empirical evidence that burning anything containing chlorophyll emits an order that could be confused with marijuana.

For all you know it could be the burning of marijuana cellulose and that of sage that makes the people in your examples think they smell the same.


I don't really understand where you're getting the information for these claims lol

OK, let's get this straight. You claim it could be the cellulose that is giving the odor, yet tobacco doesn't have this odor, paper, which is cellulose doesn't have this odor, and rolling papers don't have this odor when they are burned. Like I stated hash/concentrates, brown bud, and green bud all come from the same cannabis plant yet give different odors, and they all have different ratios of chlorophyll, yet you still wonder what is going on?. There is no point in going on with this. I give you what you ask for, yet you still debate with me. The only thing that would make you happy is if I show you a scientific study, but we know that isn't going to happen because there is no scientific study, because no one is going to do a study to find out how to cover up the smell of burning/heated cannabis. I can't win with you all, even though everyone who has tried it in the other thread loves the method, and one has stated they like it for it's stealthiness, yet I'm arguing with you two about this. I'm a fool for even doing this when the proof is on this forum. Goodbye.

 

[pakalolo]

Chlorophyll is a pigment that gives off that weed smell, that most people know weed for when it is heated. If you burn a green leaf, it gives off the same smell. Lack of chlorophyll is why hash doesn't smell like bud, when it is heated, and it is full of terpenoids.

This begs the question. You are claiming that chlorophyll is the smell associated with weed, because when you remove it (e.g hash) it doesn't smell like weed. This is backwards. Obviously the smell left when you remove the chlorophyll is the smell of weed. The smell of chlorophyll is chlorophyll. Arguing about the percentage of chlorophyll is just a red herring. Quoting people who think x smells like weed when burned is irrelevant.

 

[luchiano]

This begs the question. You are claiming that chlorophyll is the smell associated with weed, because when you remove it (e.g hash) it doesn't smell like weed. This is backwards. Obviously the smell left when you remove the chlorophyll is the smell of weed. The smell of chlorophyll is chlorophyll. Arguing about the percentage of chlorophyll is just a red herring. Quoting people who think x smells like weed when burned is irrelevant.

I'm only responding because I hope you pay attention, and get what I'm stating, and not what you want it to mean.

The smell that is associated with weed when people smoke/vape at a high temperature, comes form the chlorophyll. I'm not talking about RAW smells, but when heated up. I really can't believe that I'm just repeating the same thing, over, and over. You are asking me questions, that I have already answered in my previous posts.

Also, it does matter what people think smells like weed because those people are the same people you are trying to avoid, if you want to be stealthy, so you better find out what they think is similar to weed in odor. It can keep your ass out prison. This is funny as hell.