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Crazy idea for high temp vaping - remove oxygen?

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by Frederick McGuire, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. Frederick McGuire

    Frederick McGuire Aggressively Loungey

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    Ok, so i had this high-dea last night when hitting a vape that was turned up a bit too high.

    I got super dense vapor for a second, then the dirty smoke from combustion.

    So I was thinking, if there was some way of removing oxygen from the air path, couldn't we then vape at temps that would normally cause combustion?

    I'm sure removing the oxygen is a non-trivial step, but assuming we somehow replaced it with something inert (I'm thinking nitrogen just off the top of my head), would that mean we could then crank our vape up super high, and do something equivalent to dabbing (that is, use a really high temp to very quickly vaporize most/all of the compounds we are after)

    I mean, for fire, we need heat (the vape), Fuel (the MJ) and oxygen (from the air) right?
    Or am I missing something and can combustion occur without oxygen?


    I could see potential benefits in that
    -there's a potential for vaping off compounds that may not boil until above the regular combustion point (not sure if there are any, but I'm sure I've seen charts showing MJ compounds going pretty damn high with their boiling points
    -potential massive clouds for cloud chasers like myself (massive in the sense of 1-2 thick, dense hits and the load is done, not drawing it out over 5-6-7 hits... I know vapes like the cloud can finish a bowl in 1 hit, but my cloud usually gives me at least 3-4 good rips before the vapor starts thinning out...)
    -possible improvement to high-temp taste as there'd be no oxidation happening? (pretty sure I'm wrong about that one, but it's a discussion point :))

    I can also see some potential negatives in that
    -there's a potential for oxygen deprivation - I would think that 1 hit wouldn't be long enough to cause any serious risk, but I'm no expert on it, and I know I've gotten a bit light headed when playing around with inhaling helium from party balloons, so maybe its a similar thing?
    -not particularly useful for low temp vapers, though if the oxidation thing does affect taste, it may still help here?
    -Potential for the load to instantly burst into flames if it's heated to above the point of combustion, and oxygen somehow gets into the system
    -at high enough temps, perhaps some of the combustion nasties we're trying to avoid will be produced anyway, regardless of whether actual combustion occurred?

    I know we've got some members about who will know way more about applying the science to this idea than myself, so whaddoya guys think?
    :science:
  2. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    there is enough oxygen (mind it is not only in the air) in the bud for combustion to occur.. u can vac it out.. but then convection would be impossible and leaves you with the flameable oxygen in the molecules of the bud :) :) ..
  3. Frederick McGuire

    Frederick McGuire Aggressively Loungey

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    TBH I hadn't thought about oxygen in the plant matter...

    Well, I thought I had, but figured it'd be mostly in the form of H2O, or CO2.

    Damn, I thought I was getting all clever.

    So assuming you had a chamber, with all oxygen removed from the air (not necessarily under a vacuum, lets say for arguments sake its a chamber filled with pure nitrogen gas, at regular atmospheric pressure) and you had a stream of heated nitrogen gas flowing over it, there's enough free oxygen within the plant matter for it to still combust?

    (crazy stoner tangent - does that mean that overlooking the whole "a vacuum will kill a human" thing, assuming you had a heat source, one could smoke MJ in a vaccum?)
    Abysmal Vapor likes this.
  4. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    I know there are some things that can burn in zero oxygen conditions like phosphorus , it is in the nutrients so i guess there is some in the bud too so it will combust :)
    Quetzalcoatl likes this.
  5. Vapewithfire

    Vapewithfire Active Member

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    I would never buy a vape, that his heat range goes not at least up to
    250 ° celsius. Some cbd like substances need at least 230 ° celsius, i red.
    The volcano goes up to 225 °, some say they don´t get really stoned...

    Have you ever tried vaping with a simple hot air gun and bong.
    Made a thread and still 100 % happy with the bongvape for 70,- euros.
    I can adjust the temperature between 50° and 600° celsius, and takes not much more than 20 seconds to heat up.
    http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/b...or-70-euro-cheap-easy-and-clean-vaping.13567/
  6. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    How is your post relevant to that thread? You trying to get attention or smth.. ?That's blonde dude.. :D
  7. Vapewithfire

    Vapewithfire Active Member

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    Because with hot air gun he can adjust the temperature, and doesn´t
    have to remove any kind of oxygen.
    This is what the thread is about, he wants the stonedness of smoking,
    that´s why he wants to remove the oxygen. More cb., more stoned.
    Some start to rise at 230° celsius, not before.

    My post was a useful hint, belonging to the thread theme.
    High temperature vaping.
    Your post was a useles disquestion ?

    Why do you ask, do you want attention ?
    Didn´t you get, what he means ?
    I don´t need more attention, i had more than enough.
  8. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    Vapes:
    Desktop:
    SSV ~ EQ ~ LSV x2 ~ Underdog ~ WychWood ~ Hot Pod ~ FakeXhale Cloud ~ VapeXhale EVO
    Portable:
    Solo ~ Vaporstar ~ VG Bat ~ Omicron v1.1 ~ Gn0me ~ Supreme V2 ~ Thermovape T-1
    Yeah like he doesn't have an adjustable vape...
    I am calling you attention whore..
    Learn to use the search tool and you will find that everything you spam about is old shit and it is far long discussed , no one wants to inhale heat gun electronics farts
  9. tuk

    tuk Well-Known Member

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    My understanding of chemistry isn't great, but...vaporisation/sublimation is essentially the converting of solids into gas, which means the herb material is bonding/combing with oxygen material in order to transform from a solid(herb) to a gas(vapour.

    Sure, the herb material will already contain some oxygen in its default solid state, but not in enough quantity to stop it from being a solid, eg if you set some herb on fire then shut off the external oxygen supply it will be immediately extinguished ......this is all hazed memory & guesswork though, I don't know for sure!
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  10. Vapewithfire

    Vapewithfire Active Member

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    A volcano, the best, some say, is nothing else than a heat gun in disguise. What should be wrong with hot air ?

    He has an adjustable vape, but it has a limit.
    A limit, what he wants to cross, to get mor cbd and stuff.
    A volcano goes up to 225 °, that´s not enough for some people.
    I could bet his is limited under 250°.

    I don´t like it, when people, say something against heatguns,
    the original vaporiser of eagle bill was made with a heat gun.
    I use it for ten years and they sold and sell it in professional vape stores in holland.

    Here is a picture, that shows eagle bill vaping with his heat gun.
    [​IMG]

    Some people give up vaping, because they got a fake vape, that goes up to 200 °, but at least 230 ° celsius would be neccessary get all cbd like substances, i use 250 °
    A heat gun is much better than many vapes that cost more than 100 euro, and you can adjust the temperature ( steinel hl 1910 E ) between 50° and 600° celsius.
    You don´t need those vaporiser bottle, all you need is a bong with 1 big bowl and a adjustable heat gun. Cost 70,- Euro.
  11. paytonpenn

    paytonpenn Level 30 Nature/Healer

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  12. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Thankyou for a good chuckle, although I think I peed a little bit when I read 'heat gun electronics farts'!
    scrog and Quetzalcoatl like this.
  13. Bezerkben

    Bezerkben Member

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    will the to air gun not combust the herb if it gets too hot?. i always thought that MJ combusts around 450f.

    just a question have you been vaping along time... if so do you not find you get higher then when you burn...

    after about 3 weeks of only vaping i got higher on 1 bowl then i ever go burning a joint or 2.. just my case
  14. DieHard

    DieHard Vertical transportation specialist.

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    ^Really?!?! Broken record in the house! Vapewithfire

    I think that this could be a valid experiment after reading @Frederick McGuire 's posts. If you have a strong enough heat source and a vac chamber. If the fuel( flowers) is exposed to the heat source in a vacuum, I believe that there will be combustion, even if only slight. The experiment with an inert gas would be very interesting. Although which "inert" gas will be safe to inhale over long periods and in the concentrations necessary for vaping. The inert gas idea is similar to MIG/TIG welding. The shielding gas is used in welding to protect the weld from atmospheric oxygen and nitrogen which lead to problems/defects with the weld.
    :freak::science::evil:
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  15. Vapewithfire

    Vapewithfire Active Member

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    The hot air gun i got has an adjustable temperature control, i can
    switch from 50 ° celsius to 600 ° celsius. Sounds expensive and complicated, but is easy and cheap ( steinel hl 1910 ), cost 50,- euro.

    If you want to avoid condensate or combustion, you got switch down to 250° celsius or something. I don´t know the exactly temperature, when it combusts. Normally i vape with 250° celsius, because i want to get all active substances in my weed. Sometimes i switch higher. As long as i don´t see any burnings at the weed or smoke in the vapour i exhaled, i´m happy.

    I vape for 10 years, and still happy with it.

    Do you mean, if i get more stoned, when i let it burn a bit ?
    Yes, that´s not healthy, but sometimes i want the smokers stonedness in xxl. Than i vape it with fire and pipescreens above the weed or with my vape at a very high temperature. But i don´t let it burn, for long, so that only a bit is burned. When it starts to combust, i stop, nearly all thc is already vaped. Not healthy, but much less condensate and more thc compared to smoking.
    May be the bit of smoke makes the clean vapour to some kind of sticker, that will not be exhaled, when you do that too early.

    But normally i do normal vaping, don´t want to catch smoker´s leg or something.
    Bezerkben likes this.
  16. DieHard

    DieHard Vertical transportation specialist.

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    :puke: Smokers' Leg!
    Really?!?!

    :):lol::rofl::lmao::lmao::lmao::freak::mental:
  17. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    :):lol::rofl::lmao::lmao::lmao::freak::mental:[/QUOTE]
    What about Idle Blood :D :D :D :D
    Quetzalcoatl likes this.
  18. Anonymouse

    Anonymouse Sith I care

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    So I was thinking I'd write up some sort of article and start a new thread for a post number "420", as my nerdly sentiments felt this was worth commemorating somehow, but I was having trouble deciding what to cover. But then I stumbled on this thread, and yeah, this'll do for a post number 420. There's plenty to cover here.

    Yes, we could. You wouldn't want to go super high as different forms of chemical degradation will happen, but replacing the oxygen with something non-toxic and relatively inert like nitrogen would remove the risk of thermal-runaway-related combustion, which can occur even at sub-combustion temps due to chemical energy (heat) released in the load by localised oxidation pushing those areas up into combustion temp territory. Less than ~400C vaping could be interesting, though.

    It's more trivial than you'd expect, and displacing with nitrogen as you suggest is probably the easiest and most logical approach. If you had a cannister of the stuff to fill a bag with, or a hose leading to a container with liquid N2 inside, you could just connect said bag or hose to the bottom of your Cloud's bamboo and just rip it, for example. No need to mess about with vacuums and the difficulties involved. It'd only take a fraction of a second of draw to displace the air in the bamboo and then the load would be subjected to heated nitrogen and nothing else.

    It actually can, yes, as long as the oxygen is substituted with another oxidising agent that can be reduced to accept the displaced electrons, such as chlorine or fluorine, or oxidising compounds like chlorates, nitrates, etc. But in the absence of such a chemical, no, you won't get "combustion". There are other types of heat-related chemical decomposition that don't involve oxidation, though, like pyrolysis, etc, which can produce nasties at high enough temps, so an inert convective medium doesn't mean it's open season on temperatures, just that you can go higher than you otherwise would. Your limiting factor on max temp is no longer combustion but other forms of chemical degradation. There'll be a point where the actives denature even without oxygen present, for example.

    You'd be able to get a "stonier" profile, I'm sure. Just don't go so hot that you start potentially converting some compounds into undesirable others, or flat-out breaking down the goodies, and I can't see any major caveats.

    There is definite potential for faster extraction, yes.

    It'd still be possible to affect the taste, I'm afraid, though it'd probably get weaker rather than nastier. Even in the absence of oxygen, at near-combustion temps all the fragile aromatic molecules (terpenes, etc) will break down into simpler compounts, and since these are responsible for most of the flavour, it's going to end up subjectively different. I'm guessing a lot blander, but I wouldn't put money on it without testing.

    Not really an issue, as nobody is forcing you to take the whole breath from the vape exclusively. Inhale until you finish your hit, then pack some air on top of it until your lungs are full. If you can clear a load in 10-20 seconds of drawing that leaves loads of room for air afterwards. Or hell, just put a "Helix" or some other vortex-carbing glass piece downstream of the load to mix some air in to the hit once it's past the combustion risk-zone.

    I don't anticipate any advantages here, or at least not enough to be worth the bother.

    If the vape is a convention design like a Cloud or Extreme Q, where the load doens't sit in a heated oven, this is a very small risk indeed. The load cools really fast once the gas flow stops. In crucible or convection/conduction designs, this could be an issue, but none of those get hot enough anyway. You'd probably want to use an EVO in concentrate mode or a heat gun to really test this idea, as most convection models don't get much more than 250C either.

    You'll get thicker, non-active components of the resins evapourating, and if it's hot enough tars and other shit forming, so oxygen being present or not, low-temp is always going to be the healthier long-term option. Some patients need harder hitting options, though, so both styles have their places and situational advantages.

    There is indeed tiny amount of air trapped in the voids in the dried plant tissues, but volumetrically it's almost nothing, and the amount of oxygen trapped is thus ~17% of almost nothing. It isn't significant. The air left in a Cloud's bamboo after sealing a bag of nitrogen over the bottom would have millions of times more mass than the amount trapped in the load, and even that isn't going to do much. As soon as the rush of pure nitrogen arrives, any tiny ember that might potentially have formed is going to be extinguished immediately.

    No.

    Nope. The green wouldn't catch fire. The heat source, say a really beefy soldering iron or something, would start vaping goodies from the end of your space spliff though, but you wouldn't be able to inhale any of it as with no atmosphere your lungs can't effect a pressure differential; they'd just pump up and down impotently in your chest while nothing happened.

    And like you say, this is also assuming you magically aren't killed by this for whatever reason. I suppose you could be in a suit in the vacuum to allow your lungs to operate, but then the visor would get in the way.
    [​IMG]

    Phosphorus will not burn without an oxidising agent present.

    Also, even if it would, the behaviour of a substance as a pure element doesn't necessarily apply to any compounds involving it (like phosphate in nutes). Water doesn't behave like oxygen or hydrogen, for example.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
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  19. Anonymouse

    Anonymouse Sith I care

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    You have completely missed the point of the original post; it wasn't the vape's lack of temp capability that was preventing the OP from doing high-temp hits, it was the fact that vape loads unavoidably catch fire if heated past a certain point. This can potentially happen even well below combustion temps, for previously-discussed reasons. Removing the oxidiser allows you to go up to and even somewhat beyond combustion temps without releasing copious quantities of ash and tar along with the goodness, and that higher achievable temperature differential allows faster heating of the load for a more "responsive" vape, plus the ability to release substances with higher vapourisation points (although you may not actually want to release some of those, like tars).

    Yes, maybe your heat-gun bodge-job can hit 600C, but what's the point if the load is going to catch fire before you even get halfway there? You're not using the gun to vape at that point, you're using it to smoke.

    But then, I suspect you're actually shilling something, with your low postcount added to your blind focus on pushing your dated gun-vape wherever a quick glance makes you think it's relevant to mention. Modern marketing in action. :/

    Oxygen isn't necessary for this process. Any substance can be a solid, liquid or gas, depending on the internal energy state, and no chemical change is required, nor the prescence of any other substance. Ice is H20, water is H20, and steam is H20, for example. They're just progressively "hotter".

    I have shamelessly linked the following diagram from the Internet as I am too lazy to produce my own:
    [​IMG]

    It definitely will. However, "flashpoint" for herb is similar to that of paper, since both are largely just cellulose. Ray Bradbury famously referenced it in "Fahrenheit 451", although depending on thickness and other variables it could be as high as 650F or so. It doesn't help that herb is covered with hydrocarbon sludge and other organic goo, all of which packs a lot of potential chemical energy that can help get things going if released, so extra fluffy green can auto-ignite starting about 230C or so, but in my experience 240-250C is a more realistic range. Would be nice to see some real science done of this, instead of having to estimate a range based on the temp readouts of vapes, which can vary a lot in calibration, unfortunately.

    ...

    Well damn, that was a long one. Actually had to split it because I went over 10K characters. But totally worth it for the approximately four people that will actually read it all. :p

    Although, kinda annoying how the board will let you write a message well over 10K charaters, and happily preview it without complaint, but only tell you it's too long when you actually go to post. And even then, it doesn't say how many characters you've written or how many you're over the limit by, it just says "Please enter a message that is less than 10000 characters", which isn't very helpful. :/
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  20. Vapewithfire

    Vapewithfire Active Member

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    Even, if i don´t get right, that he just wants to remove the oxygen and not a part of his vape. I got one thing right, he wants to vape on higher temperature, without combustion or smoke.

    All i meant, with my hotair gun and bong hint was, that even if i switch the temperature of very high ( more than 250° ) i see no combustion.
    I thought it is normal, but may be the heat gun blows away the oxygen
    and that´s why even if i go higher i don´t see any combustion, burnings
    or smoke in the vapour.

    When i vape with fire, i see a bit of combustion happening ( burnings )

    I hope, i get, what you mean. You want to vape at higher temperatures
    without burnings or smoke.
    I think i do this every day.
  21. Anonymouse

    Anonymouse Sith I care

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    Are you sure that 50-600 range on your gun is Celcius and not Fahrenheit? If it is indeed "C", and the temp on the dial is what's coming out of the gun, and you're routinely cranking it above "250", then you definitely aren't vaping without smoke. Oxygen is unavoidably present, and at high enough temps tiny smoke (ash) particles will be liberated by localised oxidation of the cellulose substrate well before the load auto-ignites, increasing in quantity until you hit ignition point.

    The only way I can think of that this isn't happening is if that temperature range is that of the heating coil in the gun rather than the exhaust temp, in which case the air coming out will be considerably cooler, and you're not actually getting into auto-ignition range.

    Also, you can't "blow away" oxygen. Where does it go? Technically the gun "blows away" all the gases present in the atmosphere; that's what a fan does, it's how it moves air through the body of the gun. It won't separate them or render any of them inert, though. Heated 17% oxygen is running through your goods. Heat it to auto-ignition temp and there will be fire.
  22. Frederick McGuire

    Frederick McGuire Aggressively Loungey

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    Nope, I started with a good quality vape (SSV) and haven't really used a tool not specifically designed for vaping.

    Actually, the idea behind the thread was more out of technical curiosity than anything...
    I'm perfectly happy with the effects I get out of my current vaping routine, but I kinda vaguely know that there's probably still some active compounds that I may be missing out on, and was curious if there was a potential way to get to them without resorting to combustion.

    To say I'm looking for "more stoned" isn't exactly an accurate representation of my feelings, as I've seen others say they are a bit turned off from vaping as they feel like the high is missing something. I'm perfectly happy with the high I'm getting, but if I can ever get more out of my bud I'm down for that :)

    I'm actually more interested in potentially extracting all the actives from a load quicker through higher temperatures.
    The combustion point of bud is a limiting factor in how high we can go with temps, so therefore is also a limiting factor in how quick we can get the actives to boil off.
    I was curious as to whether this limit could be pushed higher through unconventional means (i.e. replacing the oxygen in the air path with nitrogen)

    :rofl: I'm pretty sure there are a few Steinel (or some brand thats close to that ;)) models of heat gun that are supposed to be quite good to use as a vape. They use a ceramic heater or something, and are supposed to be safe for inhalation.
    Depending upon the price of a suitable heat gun, I'm pretty sure it's one of the best value for money ways of making a decent bag vape (though it wouldn't surprise me if the HA still ends up being better value

    I hadn't seen that thread, very similar concept to this one :tup:

    Cheers Dude :cheers:
    Exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping would come up.
    Next time split it up into 7 posts so I can throw you more likes ;):lol:
    SSVUN~YAH likes this.
  23. Anonymouse

    Anonymouse Sith I care

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    Yeah, but then I'd have to wait in between each post for someone else to reply. At least if I use up the character limit I have a legitimate excuse for making back-to-back posts. :p
  24. Vapewithfire

    Vapewithfire Active Member

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    107
    The heat range is definately celsius ( germany ).
    Even if i switch on 5 ( should be around 300 ° celsius )
    it gets not burned and no visable condensate.

    First, you can see the smoke in the vapour.
    Vapour dissappears immediately, after exhaling, when there is smoke
    in it, you can see it, how it lasts in the air. ( vapsmoking )

    You can see combustions/ burnings at the weed, when they happen.

    I found a method, to test your vapour, if it is clean.
    When i smoke bowl, and hold a piece of thin toilet paper right and tight before my mouth before i exhale, i see how much black or brown condensate is stucked in the paper.

    When i vapsmoke with nearly no burnings, there is nearly no visible condensate, but a bit.
    When more was burned, more is to see. even a burned bit is to see.

    But with my vape on steinel hl 1910 e 5, may be invisible combustions, but nothing visible, what would scare me.

    I lay 1 pipescreen above the weed before i vape, may be this decreases temperature. But i still think it is at least 270 °, i´m vaping with.
    Not a single point of condensate, in the toilet paper.
  25. Anonymouse

    Anonymouse Sith I care

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    "Vapour" lingers in the air just like smoke, as both are suspended particulate. Actual cannabis resin vapour is invisible; it's a colourless gas, but it is ONLY present when the environment around it is over 180C or so, which does not include the inside of your lungs. Once it cools, it condenses into the visible particulate cloud, which is no longer technically vapour.

    Smoke appears to hang around longer as there's simply a lot more particles of particulate in the same volume of cloud, so it will take proportionately longer to dissipate enough that it's no longer visible.

    This test isn't terribly useful, as both resin droplets and smoke particles will tint the paper light brown. Also, ash, the primary component of smoke, is white, and most of that thus won't be visible. You'll only see the brown-tinted ash particles that've picked up some soot, tar, etc, and which can be hard to disguish from resin stains.

    And such staining is technically filtrate, not condensate.

    If you're not getting cherries in the load then this means that you simply aren't getting hot enough, despite what your temp dial says. An actual load temp of 270C would definitely cherry.

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