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CCA Liger banger V3.0

Discussion in 'Vapor Related Equipment' started by mrbonsai420, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. ensabbahnur

    ensabbahnur Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Kickin it live in the 775
    Id pretty much put money that its significantly faster heat up when the insert is surrounded by an at temp bucket, I'm absolutely certain it wouldn't take nearly an nails heat up cycle to cause anything in the at temp bucket to reach the same temp........he who dares though, carry on and let us know how that goes.
     
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  2. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    This is my point too.

    When you place a room temp sapphire insert into a banger which is already at dabbing temp, that is a much greater degree of thermal shock than what comes from the heater coil warming up from room temp over a few mins to dabbing temp. The sapphire is going to heat up much more gradually in the scenario with the electronic heater coil, which does not itself reach dabbing temp for a few minutes, let alone get all of that heat into the rest of the titanium and sapphire.

    But this has me thinking man, if you really want to find out about this, perhaps I could run a smaller experiment myself first and let you know what happens in my case.

    I own a bunch of d-nail sapphire inserts. I could quite easily torch my v1 flat titanium nail to dabbing temp and then drop it in and see how it goes a few times. I can afford to damage one of those inserts in the event that it is no good :)

    I'll let you know of my findings bro :peace:

    EDIT:

    Ok I gave this a try and actually, I was successful:

    http://www.d-nail.com/d-nail-v1-flat-titanium-nail

    This is the nail that I used, on a d-nail slim series base. I placed this configuration on an old mini rig of mine and torched the titanium nail until it was much hotter to hold my wrist over the top of it than what my 30mm liger would be. I then waited for it to cool down until the temp felt appropriate to my wrist which I held roughly 1 inch above the nail to sense temp.

    I had my .07g dab of distillate already on a d-nail v1 sapphire insert and ready for insertion. When the nail was at temp, I gently placed it in by hand. The vaporization started reasonably quickly and was very full. Major clouds - no damage to the sapphire either! I think I may have placed my sapphire insert in there at a slightly higher than ideal temp still, could have benefited from 5-10 seconds more cooldown IMO.

    A few notes:

    1. The d-nail sapphire insert is much lighter in weight than the liger inserts. Dropping a liger insert into an already hot dish is going to involve a larger item falling into a deeper receptacle. We must consider that there will be greater shock from the drop itself, especially given the greater weight. This combined with the thermal shock may make for different, potentially disastrous results on the liger.

    2. I really liked this approach for torch dabbing. I won't be giving up on e-nails any time soon for this, but I'll be sure to use this approach in the future when I don't have electricity! The titanium gets to temp more quickly than SiC torch nails, and the flavor on this sapphire insert torch dab even at a slightly high temp was as good, if slightly better than my SiC torch dabs which I always use at lower temps.

    Getting the insert back out after the nail had cooled down was a PITA, definitely need to be able to remove the insert warm. I wonder if wood might serve as the best material to hot drop a used insert out of a hot nail?

    Conclusion:

    This 'torch, then drop a sapphire insert with preloaded dab onto a hot torch nail' (forgive me, I am not in the right state of mind for naming things creatively!) technique appears not to necessarily lead to breakage for isolated or less frequent usage from my experiment. I will start doing this regularly for a week or two and report back on how the sapphire lasts after continued use in this way :peace:
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
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  3. Danksta

    Danksta Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    601
    Thanks for taking the risk.

    Drop uptemp tek is the shit man. The terps don't burn off as much as an at temp nail. It's such a great way to enjoy your medicine. I like loading a huge dab and making that my sesh. 1-2 good hits. The terps stick in the back of your throat. This tek has given me the best dab of my life.

    Guess I need that sapphire insert sooner than later. :D
     
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  4. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    Anytime my friend. Better for me to risk $50 before you risk 6-7 times that amount :peace:

    I've done two attempts at this style of dabbing now! My second one was too low temp, but holy shit was the flavor on the full melt I used that time special! I took the remaining residue off my sapphire insert after that torch dab and finished it on my sapphire liger :brow: It tasted incredible still! I might start spreading out my hits to lighten up my doses this way, who knows!?

    On another note; I wanted to relay here that I've received all of the new Liger caps in recent times, and have done some testing.

    They're excellent. I'm really happy with Josh's work to resolve some major issues with the OG storm cell and hurricane - I'm impressed particularly with the tsunami cap! My thoughts are below. The liger caps are definitely much more dialled at this point and IMO are much better suited in quality/function to this most expensive tier of products than the last crop.

    The Storm Cell 3.1 cap:

    This was the same as the storm cell 3.0 cap but directly addresses a major complaint that I raised with the original storm cell 3.0 cap - the adjustable airflow nuts frequently leaked vapor and the airflow settings that involved more than one open airflow hole also led to inefficient vaporization.

    I was really quite brutal on CCA for the original 3.0 hurricane and storm cell caps, which had some problematic features. I'm glad to say that the new Storm Cell 3.1 cap has resolved the airflow gripes that I originally had. A wonderful cap whose only downside is getting very hot and taking a while to cool down after use.

    The Hurricane 3.1 cap:


    This product is a revised Hurricane cap, which does away with the old design. The new look Hurricane cap has a half-sphere shaped cap (like half of a Pukinbeagle ball cap), it allows you to aim your airflow around the dish by moving the cap around as you inhale, this means that you can spread the oil around the dish.

    The cap has only one air intake as well, and provides a similarly tight draw and quicker vaporization than the old cap. It is also much less cumbersome than the original hurricane cap. One caveat with this product is that you need to continually move this around while you have the cap on top of the liger bucket. If you do not, some users have had issues with the cap getting impossibly stuck in the bucket.

    If you want to leave the cap put for a moment on the bucket, make sure the handle is offset and not standing directly vertically (this is the position most prone to sticking in the bucket).

    I will note that this is slightly harder to use than my boro bubble cap because I can't see where the vapor is aiming. Additionally, the air intake on the cap is offset and diagonal, so aim is somewhat difficult as airflow does not come in through the centre of the cap.

    Still, this is a great cap for those who like to move the cap around during use and is far superior to the original hurricane IMO. I have enjoyed using this one, although I use the other more frequently.

    The Tsunami Cap:


    This one is a brand new cap for the 30mm flat coil liger only AFAIK. I think that the best way that I can describe it, is like a d-nail universal 2.0 carb cap for the liger.

    It is super lightweight and minimal, has a single, tight angled air intake to create vortexing airflow in the bucket and is my favorite of the new Liger caps. It also sits more on top of the bucket (like the d-nail carb cap) than inside the bucket (like the storm cell).

    The vacuum suction as you inhale with the cap on top of the bucket is great, as with the other new caps. This one also cools down much more quickly after use than the Storm Cell. It is an absolute pleasure to use this cap.

    One more new finding I'm pleased to report is that I'm now able to use my HE flat dabber tool with my new liger caps!
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
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  5. ensabbahnur

    ensabbahnur Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Kickin it live in the 775
    Don't you tease me! Grabbing 1 based on this alone
     
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  6. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    You won't regret it brother! Such a pleasure to use this cap!

    @Danksta holy shit, I just spread a couple little worms of 6 star bubble hash (25u at that!) onto my sapphire insert and used the torch/sapphire insert drop technique and it was out of this world! The flavor was not better than a sapphire enail dab, but it was on par! Keep in mind that this sapphire insert and nail retail for $130 all up. The nail I'm using is compatible with HE caps and others too, does not require a d-nail cap!

    So far no damage to the insert at all. I'm dumping the insert straight out after I finish the rip onto a pyrex dish very gently. So far, the sapphire is standing up to the abuse well!

    I might even eventually go so far as to recommend this approach to others! I still cannot say the same for the liger inserts (as I said above, different considerations there and I'm really not game to risk one of my liger sapphire inserts to test lol), but I'll be very interested to see what you find if you eventually try with one of those. I will continue to use this configuration as I said, and report back with any developments.

    Man even if we don't all end up agreeing that this is better than sapphire enail dabbing, this is still a big deal - it might be the first way for people to reliably get sapphire torch dabs after all!

    I wonder how a d-nail sapphire insert would work out in a banger? I don't have any quartz bangers, but I might just have to get my hands on one now to try it!

    EDIT: About 10 dabs into experimenting with this and this is gonna be a permanent part of my rotation from here on in! No damage at all so far and I've got my timing dialled! 45 seconds from the torch starting to me inhaling beautiful dabs!

    I'm ripping 6 star full melt on this without any concern that it's less tasty than a sapphire enail! I think that at least with this configuration it is safe to say that sapphire torch dabs are feasible, at least for one heavy day's dabbing! This is a great experiment, I thank @Danksta for starting the discussion on this one!
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  7. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    1,524
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Thanks @herbivore21 for the review! But what was your setup? 20mm? 30mm? Both side by side?
     
  8. Danksta

    Danksta Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    601
    @herbivore21 so happy you are enjoying it. @Terpstar was really dreaming of this tek and I waited to try it with him and we were both blown away. Glad you are as thrilled as we are. Science! :science:
     
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  9. mrbonsai420

    mrbonsai420 I love Grass and Glass!

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    1,064
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  10. Terpstar

    Terpstar i love terpenes

    Messages:
    11
    Up-Temp Drop Tech:

    Load your quartz insert with a dab (normal size or large). Torch the banger red hot. Then drop the insert in, wait a second and cap. The insert and extract begin to rise in temp from zero to whatever. The extract melts and starts to vaporize. It is true Up-Temp Drop Tech.

    Doing this gives the extracts full range of terpenes and cannabinoids as the insert temp rises and the active ingredients boil at their specific vaporization temperature. It really is the best way to dab. No cool down wait time, and a true up-temp taste and medicinal experience. It's pretty amazing.

    It makes complete sense that we've been dabbing our oil backwards. From hot to cold. Rather than from cold to hot. By starting cold, you experience all the terpenes and cannabinoids found in the extract. Rather than burning them off initially and then smoking degraded oil the rest of the dab. Cold to hot prevents that completely. There is zero burnt oil the entire dab. It's amazing.

    @Danksta and I should have some pics and videos coming soon.

    I'm very excited to try this with a sapphire insert. If anyone here blows glass/quartz and is interested in creating a banger system designed for up-temp drop tech, Danksta and I would love to chat. Hit us up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
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  11. ensabbahnur

    ensabbahnur Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    Kickin it live in the 775
    Im gonna come off as a hater here although i think its unavoidable and its unintentional and not malicious in any way.

    First off, prolly time to make a separate thread even though my below point will again attempt to bring this discussion in line with the Liger.

    Second, while I'm stoked there is a "new" technique floating around and I'm glad people are stoked on it also, however I feel its beyond time to put the quartz cooking surfaces away, they are fun and charming to use in the same way going out to nature and cooking on a grate or an open camp fire is, the poor heat transfer, retention, devitrification of the quartz, porosity of the quartz, having to pay for fuel, having to stock fuel, etc etc. Im not really talking about the inserts for what you're trying to accomplish here as really there are not to many alternatives aside from the dnail saph disks, yet, but using the quartz as the initially heated medium, even raw ti would be superior for this purpose aside from losing the clear visual, the errlectric FQN comes to mind, having to get your quartz red hot assures devitrification and using that....even with how "accurate" gauging your temps by time is.....i do not see it more accurate or stable as a properly dialed in enail of any moderate mass for your uptemp process. With any of my ligers i can set the temp just under sublimation then have the nail raise to my set point for the uptemp and never miss any of the ideal dab window while having actual accurate temps. Dnail has had a step by step posted on how to do just this since last thanksgiving i think.

    Take a Liger, add a "honey bucket" type swing arm but have it be machined to fit in the bucket while touching, that way there is no need to drop, you can simply swing in gently.....there is your uptemp tech beast, only real drawback i see is the mass of the liger would make cooling down below sublimation take a few mins and would maybe make seshs a bit more problematic but tbh messing with quartz sounds just as much of a hassle.

    Again not trying to sound like a hater, all of this is just my opinion based on my knowledge of the materials and desired end results, Im fully behind uptemp dabs and more people getting hip to REALLY tasting their material, just not wanting to take a step backwards to use quartz again and see it as the wrong development road to optimize the technique.
     
  12. Terpstar

    Terpstar i love terpenes

    Messages:
    11
    The up-temp drop tech could be used with a liger. It would just be harder to get the insert out after each dab for the next one (since it's constantly hot). A swing arm would help solve that issue but would make for a harder time cleaning the insert between hits.

    By using a quartz or ti banger with a torch it allows for unchained use of a rig and no electricity. The clear quartz banger allows for a fun visual. Ti might be better for heat transfer but won't look as good. Both should work well.

    Dropping the loaded insert into a preheated banger dish allows for a true zero to vaporization up-temp. You will not get this with a normal enail dab while using a pid that increases in temp (unless you start at zero and let the pid climb. But doing that would take too long to get a hit). Having a hot surface to instantly transfer that dropped insert into is the key to these flavors and effects. That zero to whatever is the key. We are vaporizing active ingredients that aren't known to mankind yet. We aren't missing any like we would with a higher pid set temp uptemp hit. I can taste them and feel them. No pid uptemp enail hit I've taken compares. The only way the liger (or any electric version) could hang is with an easy to remove/clean insert that could be loaded and dropped into the preheated dish every hit.

    The ultimate goal is to move away from a quartz dish insert to sapphire. I could see a dnail sapphire halo or insert working, as well as a 20mm and 30mm liger insert. I can't imagine what a dropped in sapphire insert would taste like (and look like in a quartz banger)!

    Try it out for yourselves!!!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
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  13. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead trance-form

    Messages:
    2,036
    Uptemp is easy, have you tried a $25 Divine Tribe atomizer? I've been thinking of ordering a sapphire wafer to try on it.
     
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  14. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,937
    HI guys - I'm certainly not the 'topic' police and I also tend to wander a bit.

    But this the Liger thread.....not really the "this is how to use a torch and quartz banger" thread.

    Ok, I'm out of here LOL
     
  15. Terpstar

    Terpstar i love terpenes

    Messages:
    11
    If you're not looking to see the action in a quartz banger and don't want to use a torch, and don't mind dealing with hot inserts, the Up-Temp Drop Tech can be applied to the Liger (as long as the intake tube is recessed). See below:

    -Remove insert from Liger banger bucket
    -Turn pid on to let's say 710 degrees and wait 10 minutes for the liger to heat (you can change the set temp for desired results. but this is a good starting point)
    -Load your Liger insert with extract (20mm or 30mm or 16mm. Sapphire, sic, quartz shouldn't matter.)
    -Drop your COOL and loaded insert into the hot liger bucket
    -Cap and inhale
    -Once hit is done, qtip and remove the hot insert from the Liger bucket
    -Let cool and clean property
    -Load COOL insert and drop into Liger bucket
    -Repeat

    Having multiple inserts would be nice in this situation. It would allow for loading and dropping a 2nd or 3rd insert while the others cool...
     
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  16. ccchase420

    ccchase420 TheCCC420 YouTuber

    Messages:
    155
    sounds cool but also sounds like an enormous pain in the ass. removing insert on every hit? the stress of not fucking it up and burning myself or my surroundings would take away from the buzz i'd think. however the thought of vaporizing the concentrate starting from room temp quickly and efficiently does rouse my curiosity.

    here's a thought. maybe release a carb cap for this tek that is like a cage that holds the insert. a one piece solution would be cool but you'd lose the ability to scoot the oil with directional flow, or at least wiggle the cap (as it's holding the insert). maybe something like an insert holder you can stick in the liger then cap..?

    [​IMG]

    for the current design there's probably not enough space for something like this to fit in the liger with the insert. the arms of the holder would have to be sketchy thin. but i think something like this could work and would be a lot more viable than dumping the insert out of your liger repeatedly. i envision the old school car lighter falling onto your pants while driving situation haha no thanks.
     
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  17. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    I've been tipping my hot d-nail sapphire insert out of my v1 flat nail after dabbing onto a small ceramic plate and yesterday dabbed for 24 hours using drop uptemp torch dabs. No damage on the sapphire, no burning myself at all.

    In fact, with full melt, one great thing is that if your dab is a little cool by the time you drop the insert in, you can use a flat dabber tool to scrape all of the residue off of the insert and then dab it again! This resolves one of the issues that used to frustrate me with torch dabs - get the timing slightly wrong or fail to accommodate changes in ambient temp on a traditional torch nail and you've melted your dab into a mess that is hard to scrape off a nail. With an insert, you can immediately dump the insert before any further melting happens and recover your dab.

    The liger inserts are a hell of a lot bigger than the d-nail inserts, as was said above. Also my experience with the sapphire liger inserts is that there have been quite a number of us who has had inserts that were manufactured with imperfections in the polished finish. These imperfections have led to cracks and fractures in the sapphire during normal use, let alone dropping a room temp insert into a hot titanium bucket! This means that if you dropped such an insert into a hot titanium bucket, you might end up stressing one of these imperfections in the polished finished from the impact and heaty, causing breakage.

    We must also consider that the large degree of added size and weight of the liger inserts vs the d-nail sapphire inserts (not to be confused with the sapphire halo, I'm not using that for this purpose) means that the liger insert will fall faster into the bucket. Also, the liger bucket is deeper than the nail I'm using by a long shot, so that fall is further. All of this means greater impact when dropping a liger insert in. I would not do it with sapphire.

    However as in my first paragraph above and a previous post of mine on the topic here, I'm sure that the Liger would do wonderful dropped uptemp torch dabs if one removed the heater and shroud for torching, and used quartz or SiC instead of sapphire to avoid the concerns with dropping the liger sapphire outlined above.

    Chase, your idea for a tool for easier removal of hot inserts is definitely a good one too! I'd like to see something like that emerge!
     
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  18. Terpstar

    Terpstar i love terpenes

    Messages:
    11
    Removing the insert after every hit is about as big a pain in the ass as qtipping after every hit. Definetly not for everyone. I'm sure you didn't like that idea at first either. But it helps taste. And if you have a quartz banger with insert it's common practice since it cools after the hit.

    Who said dump the insert? Remove it with tweezers or plyers or thermal thimble or whatever and place on a heat safe surface to cool. I thought of the insert holder like you drew but it might be a bit cumbersome and wouldn't work with this model insert. Using a piece of tin foil to cradle the insert might work the way it is now. Tin foil is thin enough to go under and have flaps come up the sides of insert to grab and assist with removal. An air tight insert holder would be nice on a v4 insert/bucket.

    Hold the rig/bucket at a slight angle and slowly tip straight up to control the drop speed/force/height. Should be very manageable and safe as long as the sapphire is free of cracks when it leaves the manufacturer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
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  19. alittledabwilldoya'

    alittledabwilldoya' Sapphire Powered Dabstronaut.

    Messages:
    545
    Location:
    CO
    It's extremely easy to remove a hot insert from a 20mm Liger bucket.
    I used to hot swap inserts all the time (in the 20mm).
    Just use a pair of forceps and open them up to grab the insert from the inside.
    The 30mm inserts are not easy to grab in this fashion as the are shorter and have a chamfered bottom.

    IIRC I only placed the SiC insert in while the bucket was hot.

    Using forceps allows one to gently place the insert into the bucket. (easy-peasy)
    I have two 20 sapphire inserts, after testing a bit with SiC perhaps I'll try a sapphire as well.
     
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  20. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    I find myself agreeing with this (except for the caveat in my last two sentences in this post). From my experiments with the d-nail insert, I think it is reasonable to say that so long as there are no flaws in the polished finish, then torch uptemp dabs should work. Whether or not the sapphire will last long term used like this, I can't be so sure. Hell, I don't even know if this considerably lighter sapphire insert from d-nail will last forever with these torch drop uptemp dabs! I sure hope that it does though ;)
     
  21. ccchase420

    ccchase420 TheCCC420 YouTuber

    Messages:
    155
    say what you will, i wouldn't trust (nor want) anyone but myself dumping a hot insert out of the liger in a sesh..and even then i'd really rather not bother. maybe it's laziness. also, you couldn't touch the cool loaded insert with your hands otherwise you're vaping skin fat. so i have to sesh with gloves on? or delicately tweeze the insert into the liger? adding more points to the pain in the ass factor.

    basically if i wanted dabbing to be a challenge i'd order one of those basketball bangers. i don't see the flavor tradeoff being worth the annoyance of dropping the insert especially if it has a loose crumble that then flies everywhere. my liger sits about 7-8 inches off the table so either sesh with gloves, dab skin fat or play operation with tweezers? am i missing something here?

    lots of discussion on dnail tech going on. i believe that thread is located elsewhere.
     
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  22. Terpstar

    Terpstar i love terpenes

    Messages:
    11
    If it catches on and becomes popular, I can almost guarantee you'll be shooting videos doing it and claiming it's the shit. It's just another step in progression. Try it for yourself instead of waiting and following the flock of sheep that finally catch on. It's just a small addition to an already tedious dab ritual. It really isn't a challenge unless you make it out to be one. Maybe keep butterfingers away?

    Vaping skin fat? Bahahaha. You just keep getting better. Skin fat? Maybe there would be a miniscule amount of oil from your fingers to transfer to the outside of the insert. Sure a glove would be great. But certainly not needed. It doesn't effect taste at all. I've touched quartz banger inserts and liger inserts hundreds of times with my fingers. Not ideal sure, but not going to hinder taste. Might just degrade and chas the insert quicker. Also, not really that hard to use a tweezer to drop the insert in. It's like another dab tool on your oil sick pad. Again, just a small addition to a ritual (much like qtipping was).

    I think what you're missing are the flavor and effects that come from an Up-Temp Drop Tech dab. Its clear you've never tried it, you're just nitpicking and playing devils advocate...
     
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  23. Danksta

    Danksta Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    601
    This tek isn't for everyone. No worries. For those of us with the patience and love of science we will continue down this path.

    If anyone has access to a Mayoral 31mm banger I'm really curious if they fit Liger inserts. I'm looking for a snug fit for my experiments. Or if you know of someone willing to make a custom quartz banger for 30mm Liger inserts please hit me up.

    I'll be playing with insert dropping in the Liger this weekend. I tried it last night with the SiC and got underwhelming results, but I think my temp was too low. I think we could get a tek down for the Liger if we focused on it.

    That would keep the thread on topic and keep people happy.
     
  24. Puddy

    Puddy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    39
    I gave this a try with the 16mm liger and a quartz just to try it out. The taste was amazing. Yeah pretty tedious and don't see myself doing this for every dab, but maybe like the first one of the day before it's turned on.
     
  25. Puddy

    Puddy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    39

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