Brexit - The Great British EU Dilema

[h3rbalist]

@1DMF the conflict in Iraq and the Falklands have one very important thing in common. OIL. We were told we went to the Falklands to defend our people and oil wasn't even mentioned. We went there to defend our oil rights and defending sovereignty was a coincidence. The government mislead us then and will continue to mislead us. It's not in their interest to tell us the truth.

@h3rbalist Not wanting to get into a row or anything but your 'If you didn't for for us you voted for them' attitude is where the whole thing falls flat on it's face.
I didn't vote for any one and never have. Where does that put me. I get told my opinion isn't valid because I didn't vote, it's my fault they got in, I have no right to moan as I didn't take part. I have every right and it's about time the people in this country got their shit together and boycotted elections.
Tactical voting is a poor way of showing you aren't happy with the situation. Why vote for one bunch of lying wankers just to stop the other bunch of lying wankers getting in.

Until someone steps up and actually means something to me I will continue to exercise my democratic right to not vote.
It's about time we stopped all this them and us shit and worked together for the greater good.

@peterpiper Religion and politics should never mix. I rarely talk about either. Each to their own and that, if YOUR god/religion has the necessary placebo effect you need to live your life then that's up to you. There can't be a second coming there wasn't even a first.

I heard of a young 'chav' telling some dark skinned man to go back to Africa, it turns out he was of Indian decent and had lived here all his life. Recent racially motivated attacks show just how ignorant a lot of people in this country actually are. The government know if they keep us ignorant we are a lot easier to manipulate.

Your opinion does matter to me and on the scale of your posts here it's a shame there are not more like you in politics.

You would get my vote.

But I will stand by my two horse race mentality as it fits the current political landscape.
And I'll agree with the ppl you mentioned.

Also regarding protests.

I was there protesting against the Miners strikes, teacher strikes, poll tax rise, Iraq war, osterity and two legalize cannabis marches.

I did all of that whilst continuing my support of the party that stands for the working class.

Where were you and the other protest voters?

 

[1DMF]

I'm to blame for the Tories being in power when I didn't even vote Tory. OK?

As for murder, defending yourself against an aggressor is not murder, it's involuntary manslaughter, I don't understand what you are saying?

@phattpiggie It's possible, but the oil in the region seems to come and go, I'm personally all for sharing the oil with Argentina if there is any, but the fact still remains, we didn't invade a country for oil, we defended an invasion, there is a difference. Even if there was an ulterior motive, the same goes for the Gulf war, perhaps it was about oil from both sides, it still doesn't change the fact Iraq invaded Kuwait and we helped to defend it.

The line may be blurry but it is still there!

 

[peterpiper]

I never said I was religious
I know ISIS most certainly are
They want to kill us and we want to open up the borders
All seems a bit odd to me

 

[h3rbalist]

Your comment, 'we all have to suck it up'

Sounds alot like Cameron's, "we're all in this together.'

Both are incorrect.

As a working class man I believe your failure to support the working class party handed the conservatives power.

I can uderstand why ppl don't want to believe this but the fact remains.

 

[Gray Area]

I've still to hear one person who voted to leave, explain what (and how) they hope to achieve by doing so...

Control our borders and trade with other parts of the world etc and other vague comments are just that. Vague.

By voting to remain, I hoped to maintain the UK's position in the common market, safeguard workers rights as laid out by the EU and continue the trade and investment created by being a member of the union.
And although I think there is flaws in the EU as it stands, I also think it was the best choice of the two given to remain, as quite frankly what's the (real) alternative.
I feel that going forward we should be breaking barriers, not introducing more.

There's a basic summary of my reasons for voting remain.

Imo, this referendum was won for the Tory/UKIP elite by uneducated people being gullible and falling for blatant lies and half promises, and of course the good old racists that have been all over the TV and social media (not in my experience a minority at all).

I won't even lower myself to mention that post that was copied from FB where you had some guy bragging about being a scab/strike breaker

So can I ask one question only, how do you expect to control our borders now that we are out of Europe? Do you really think it'll make a difference??

Someone mentioned Norway when I spoke about the CAP and investment for UK farmers etc... Well, both they and Switzerland take considerably more EU migrants than the UK do... Just how exactly do you see this as going to work.

And for the record I was in a polling station for the first time in 32 years voting in this referendum.
I "might" consider voting labour in a general election if JC continues as leader, but definitely won't if it all falls back into the hands of the Blairites (roll on the Chilcot report eh?).

 

[ReggieB]

Whilst some might not think that voting for ukip is not voting for nf, when the french nf leader stands up in support of farage and farage himself has said in the past that he'd be inclined to vote with them, you've got to wonder what that vote meant or implied or how it might be perceived.

 

[1DMF]

I can uderstand why ppl don't want to believe this but the fact remains.

It's not a fact, the UK doesn't have two party politics, that's a fact?

when the french nf leader stands up in support of farage

Again you are missing context and meaning as my NF = Nigel Farage not National Front - honestly!

 

[h3rbalist]

It's not a fact, the UK doesn't have two party politics, that's a fact?

Again you are missing context and meaning as my NF = Nigel Farage not National Front - honestly!

That is what they want you to believe.

and...

NF/Nigel Farage = The same thing

 

[ReggieB]

It's not a fact, the UK doesn't have two party politics, that's a fact?

Again you are missing context and meaning as my NF = Nigel Farage not National Front - honestly!

If I'm missing context and meaning, it's because none was supplied, my apologies. I still stand by what I said though.

As for a vote for ukip not being a vote for nigel farage, ok then... by the same token, as farage is their leader it follows that you generally agree with what he's saying as he's putting party policy out there for the masses.

 

[kellya86]

Here is the problem with British politics, there is no one to vote for, no perfect candidates, they are all lying, cheating, theiving scum, it's just a case of choosing the lesser of 2 evils....

Least in Russia people like their leader....

 

[1DMF]

As for a vote for ukip not being a vote for nigel farage, ok then... by the same token, as farage is their leader it follows that you generally agree with what he's saying as he's putting party policy out there for the masses.

If that is an independent UK then yes. you don't have to agree with all party policies to vote for them. I may not vote UKIP next time, as we now have independence.

NF/Nigel Farage = The same thing

and here we go again, come on the National Front and British National Party is not UKIP. Wanting an independent UK is not the same as wanting a white UK!

That's the same as saying labour voters are communists! Which I'm now starting to wonder?

Least in Russia peoplet like their leader....

Is that why labour voters like their leader?

 

[phattpiggie]

@1DMF The truth about the oil came out years after. They also mislead us when they told us the airfield had been bombed rendering it useless. Aerial fotos which we never got to see at the time proved it was still usable.

@peterpiper I didn't mean you personally. Sorry but it does look that way when you read it.

@h3rbalist in 1984 I had just returned from a second tour of Germany. I'm a forces kid. My father joined up and served his country. Got married and had kids. Two occasions in my life when we had to have our cars checked for bombs both here and in Germany. I was a kid and looking back at it now it wasn't a nice time. He died early. It is more than likely work related. My mother is incredibly ill now. They both paid into the state their whole working lives. And for what? my mother is currently being well and truly fukd over left right and centre for health care. She paid for it once already and now the state want to squeeze every last penny out of her.
I am old enough and wise enough to respect anyone's views and you come over as not being one of the ignorant but to me your view on the Labour party comes over as a bit deluded. They haven't looked after the working class for a long time.
I walked around London for the first cannabis demo and it didn't make any difference.
This thread shows the division in the UK, it's about time we fukd the party system off and demand a fairer way for everyone.
As for being a politician thank you for the kind words. But I'm a foul mouthed working class man who's not afraid to speak his mind, finds it difficult to lie and stands up for what's right. No chance of me ever getting in lol.

 

[1DMF]

@1DMF The truth about the oil came out years after. They also mislead us when they told us the airfield had been bombed rendering it useless. Aerial fotos which we never got to see at the time proved it was still usable.

Being a forces guy, I accept your knowledge, I was a kid when the war happened, and don't know the ins-and-outs , but the island was invaded and it was right to defend it, though I appreciate the black and whiteness of this statement.

As for being a politician thank you for the kind words. But I'm a foul mouthed working class man who's not afraid to speak his mind, finds it difficult to lie and stands up for what's right. No chance of me ever getting in lol.

Isn't this what we want from our politicians?

Phattpiggie for PM

 

[h3rbalist]

If that is an independent UK then yes. you don't have to agree with all party policies to vote for them. I may not vote UKIP next time, as we now have independence.

and here we go again, come on the National Front and British National Party is not UKIP. Wanting an independent UK is not the same as wanting a white UK!

That's the same as saying labour voters are communists! Which I'm now starting to wonder?


Is that why labour voters like their leader?

No?

Yet all the pervious supporters of those openly racist parties now all vote for UKIP.

Wake up!

 

[1DMF]

Yet all the pervious supporters of those openly racist parties now all vote for UKIP.

And by that analogy all communists are labour voters.

 

[h3rbalist]

...
As for being a politician thank you for the kind words. But I'm a foul mouthed working class man who's not afraid to speak his mind, finds it difficult to lie and stands up for what's right. No chance of me ever getting in lol.

Are you Ken Livingston?

Unfortunately I don't have to go back that far to remember bomb checks, as I used to live in Northern Ireland.

I fully respect your stance and would join you in a heartbeat if for one second I believed there was an alternative. Which currently I don't.

I truly believe by not voting for something you are inadvertently voting for something else.

 

[ReggieB]

And by that analogy all communists are labour voters.

It's quite possible but then again someone being a communist isn't a problem.

 

[h3rbalist]

And by that analogy all communists are labour voters.

And by that, Communism is the same as racism?




Have you ever seen a sound minded ethnic person at a UKIP rally?

 

[1DMF]

And by that, Communism is the same as racism?

that doesn't equate.

Have you ever seen a sound minded ethnic person at a UKIP rally?

I've never been to a rally.

It's quite possible but then again someone being a communist isn't a problem.

Really, I guess you have never heard Lenin or Stalin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

I mean when has anyone being communist ever been a problem!

 

[h3rbalist]

that doesn't equate.

Exactly!

I've never been to a rally

Maybe you should attend a few UKIP meetings and get a feel for your fellow supporters.

Really, I guess you have never heard Lenin or Stalin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

I mean when has anyone being communist ever been a problem!

Ever heard of Ché Guevara?

 

[ReggieB]

that doesn't equate.
I've never been to a rally.

Really, I guess you have never heard Lenin or Stalin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

I mean when has anyone being communist ever been a problem!

Indeed but we're not talking about paranoid leaders of failed dictatorships, we're talking about normal people with political views.

 

[His_Highness]

I guess Brexit isn't going to give Britain the ability to deal with immigration the way it was hoping for or at least it's not going to be that easy....

EU to Britain: No access to single market without migration
European Union leaders spelled out stark conditions for a new relationship with a departing Britain on Wednesday, warning that if British business wants to keep access to Europe's single market, the country must accept European workers, too

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/divi...uture-without-britain-070306591--finance.html

 

[yogoshio]

Ever heard of Ché Guevara?

I have:

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/truth-about-che-guevara


'Just as Jacobin Paris had Louis Antoine de Saint-Just,” wrote French historian Pascal Fontaine, “revolutionary Havana had Che Guevara, a Latin American version of Nechaev, the nineteenth century nihilist terrorist who inspired Dostoevsky’s The Devils. As Guevara wrote to a friend in 1957, ‘My ideological training means that I am one of those people who believe that the solution to the world’s problems is to be found behind the Iron Curtain.’…He was a great admirer of the Cultural Revolution [in China]. According to Regis Debray, ‘It was he and not Fidel who in 1960 invented Cuba’s first corrective work camp,’ or what the Americans would call a slave labor camp and the Russians called the gulag.

You know what happens to Cubans who display open hatred of Che?

They get arrested.

When he was still alive, they were executed or herded into slave-labor camps.

So yeah, everyone “loves” him. It’s required by law. Woe to those who disobey State Security.

Che’s own words are enough to condemn him.

“A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.”

“We will bring the war to the imperialist enemies’ very home, to his places of work and recreation. We must never give him a minute of peace or tranquility. This is a total war to the death.”

“If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City…We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims…We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm.”

Here’s one more from Fontaine in France: “In his will, the graduate of the school of terror praised the ‘extremely useful hatred that turns men into effective, violent, merciless, and cold killing machines.’ He was dogmatic, cold, and intolerant, and there was almost nothing in him of the traditionally open and warm Cuban temperament.”

 

[1DMF]

Ever heard of Ché Guevara?

Of course Cuba. Ever heard of the Cuban missile crisis and JFK? Next you'll be trying to tell me that Pol Pot and Chairman Mao were good guys!

Exactly!

No you missed the point, fascists are far right , communists are far left. Though it is argued by some that Tory and Labour are now really centre ground. So if Labour is considered left then they contain communists and if Tory is considered right, then they contain fascists. You tried putting them in the same camp and that's not possible by definition as they are meant to be poles apart.

Indeed but we're not talking about paranoid leaders of failed dictatorships, we're talking about normal people with political views.

No we aren't because you refuse to accept that UKIP supporters are normal people with political views or that anyone voting to leave the EU isn't a racist.

Luckily though I know Labour supporters who voted Brexit and it is actually argued that Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexit man which is why he's having such a hard time currently.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...y-EU-Past-Eurosceptic-Views-on-European-Union

It's rather amusing that the reality of the situation is the leader of the Labour party actually supports Brexit, had voted against the Maastricht & Lisbon treaties and voted to not join the EU in the first place in the 1970's.

 

[Gray Area]

I guess Brexit isn't going to give Britain the ability to deal with immigration the way it was hoping for or at least it's not going to be that easy....

EU to Britain: No access to single market without migration
European Union leaders spelled out stark conditions for a new relationship with a departing Britain on Wednesday, warning that if British business wants to keep access to Europe's single market, the country must accept European workers, too

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/divi...uture-without-britain-070306591--finance.html

Well there's a surprise