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Best of the Magic-Flight Box thread

Discussion in 'Best Of' started by magicflight, May 16, 2009.

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  1. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    Hi,

    The negative terminal ring (the part you are talking about) does not get hot -- the heating element is inside the bowl proper and is far to far away from the cover for there to be any possibility of softening the cover, let alone out-gassing. They are all made that way, so no worries.

    -- Magic-Flight

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  2. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    I would recommend a grind that would at least pass without pressure/force through the mesh of a common window screen. If it is at least this fine, then that is a good start.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  3. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    Yes. The warranty applies to whomever is the current owner/user of the Box.

    -- Magic-Flight

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  4. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    Hi,

    The batteries used *must* be case peeled NiMH rechargeable AA batteries. Disposable batteries will not work. You can obtain standard AA rechargeable batteries from most electronics stores. Be sure to get a reputable brand -- the quality of the battery makes a significant difference as to how useful the battery is in the Box.

    Note: once you peel the battery, be sure to use it ONLY for the Box -- do NOT re-purpose peeled batteries into other battery operated devices (might destroy the battery or the device or both!).

    -- Magic-Flight

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  5. momofthegoons

    momofthegoons vapor accessory addict Staff Member

    Messages:
    12,264
    Yes, you can leave your herb in the box until you are ready to use it again. I would just make sure to shake it when you are done with your last hit. You can also put less in.

    How long it takes to finish a trench depends on a couple of things; how much there is, how dry it is, the grade of herb you are using (some are stickier than others), etc. There's really no set time. Just keep going until it either starts tasting bad, or until it's brown. Both happen at about the same time.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  6. momofthegoons

    momofthegoons vapor accessory addict Staff Member

    Messages:
    12,264
    It appears that you may not be shaking the box after each hit. That might be why the material is "fused" into place.

    When your material has turned to duff, it will no longer be green; rather a dark brown color, but not black. It shouldn't taste as good anymore and your vapor will taste more like smoke or burnt popcorn.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  7. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    Hi,

    As a general note: for most, if not all digital vaporizers, the temperature listed on the display is very unlikely to be the actual temperature at, on, or within the loaded herbs. In regards to vaporization, the critical metric is the temperature at the surface of the herb. Since the specific heat of air is extremely low, measuring the temperature even a few cm away can easily result in differences as much as 50 deg C. To really know how hot the herb is getting in the microscopic spaces on and in between the ground particles generally requires either a very small thermocouple or infrared optical techniques and very careful procedure.

    In regards to the Extreme, we actually purchased one of these units recently and explicitly tested to see how accurate the readout was in our Lab. The working parts of an Extreme consists of a heating unit base which has a ground glass coupling to a glass herb chamber. We know from physical inspection that whatever is used as a temperature measurement device *must* be in the base itself -- not in the herb chamber -- because there is no wire or optical path from the herb chamber back to the base. We therefore tested in two stages: 1) measuring the actual temperature immediately where the hot air stream exits the heating unit base and comparing that with value on the digital display, and 2) measuring the temperature immediately at the loaded herbs.

    In regards to our methodology, we would assemble and place a K type thermocouples into the various measurement positions, turn the unit on, set it to the desired temperature and air flow rate, and then wait 15 minutes for the unit to fully and completely equalize thermally. Each time we experimented with a different temperature or fan setting, we would again wait an additional 15 minutes for equalization. It is therefore very certain that the results obtained are accurate and reflecting the real "best possible case" operating conditions in the Extreme system.

    It is our observation, as a direct result of these experiments, that real temperature emitted by the Extreme heating unit is generally about 30 deg C cooler than the indicated Extreme readout, and that the temperature at the herb itself (another few cm farther away along the air path) is another 30 deg C or so cooler than that. Further, given that the ground glass parts have a relatively high thermal mass and that
    most users are only likely to wait 2 to 5 minutes before using, the actual temperature at the loaded herbs is very likely to be even lower than would be expected from looking at the Extreme digital readout -- at least 50 deg C and likely as much as 100 deg C cooler. Furthermore, while the digital display and the internal heat within the unit itself are fairly responsive to requested changes in the temp setting, coming into stability within 15 or seconds, the actual rate of temperature change at the loaded herb takes MUCH longer -- at least 2 minutes later.

    However, it is important to note that these systematic differences in temperature are not due to any particular failing of the Extreme system -- it is an inherently difficult problem, having to do with the bare physics of devices of this type. For example, even if the hot air path to the herb were completely insulated, the temperature loss would still be very significant -- at least 60 deg C. (We tried this also). Altering the system further so as to measure the real temperature at the herb definitely helps, yet even that is not a real solution since now the real thermal mass effects are fully evident and the overall system performance is glacially slow -- taking dozens of minutes to respond to adjustments. This pattern is evident, for example, with the Purple Days device where it is expected that it will take a *long* time for operating temperature to be reached, and once there, for the device to be left operating more or less indefinitely so as to be ready whenever it is needed.

    As such, if you are expecting a realistic answer of how the operating temperature of LB compares to that of the Extreme, you need to be aware that the "indicated temp" display is of very little relevance in regards to the actual operating vaporization conditions of the device. In terms of real temperatures, the Extreme *does* implement real vaporization -- it just does so at a generally overall lower temperature than is indicated on the display -- usually at least 50 deg C cooler, and perhaps sometimes as much as 100 deg C cooler, depending on timing, ambient conditions and settings.

    Really, the discriminating vaporizer purchaser needs to understand that the presence of a "digital display" is much more significant from a marketing and sales point of view than it is from a user/functional one. It is the connotation of "digital displays are more accurate/precise" that makes units sell, not the actual real functional performance or correctness -- something much harder to measure and understand. For vaporizers, as with most home appliances, "good enough" really is enough for most people -- everything else is a sales tactic.

    The full range of temperatures, inclusive of all possible operating conditions, intended or accidental, available to the LB is anywhere from ambient to full combustion at 233 deg C. Note that hereafter in this post, we will be referring to real temperatures actually measurable at the real/true surface of the herb. The typical operating temperature of the LB while in use tends to center at about 200 deg C -- this is the ideal. Accessible/common usage technique can easily allow for anything in the range of 165 to 210 C.

    Basically, under nearly all conditions, the LB operates significantly hotter than the Extreme. This accounts in large part for your observed differences in the experience. Different medicinally active aspects will volatilize at different temperatures. At higher temperatures, relatively more of the heavier aspects will be evident in the overall experience.

    To get an experience with the LB that is more similar to that of the Extreme, you would need to increase your typical draw rate about 15 to 20%, and be very sure that the battery is not left in the LB for more than 2 seconds before or after the draw.

    The one thing that is most important to understand is that the LB is designed to be about 100 times more responsive to user demand changes than the Extreme. Its not about accuracy so much as it is about immediate user feedback -- responsiveness. In other words, the actual herb vaporization conditions within LB can be changed very much more quickly than in the Extreme, making any true "apples to apples" comparison between these units very unlikely.

    Depending on the specific load (how dry it is, how finely ground, etc), the specific calibration of the particular LB unit and assuming zero draw rate conditions, actual ignition conditions *might* be achieved in as little as 30 seconds. For most units shipped under most conditions, the time will be noticeably longer.

    Neither -- the differences are due to differences in the vaporization temperature. The LB generally operates hotter, somewhat nearer to combustion than the Extreme under most conditions, and this leads to more/different psychoactive volatiles being released, leading to a different experience. For many people, this is a good thing, as those other ingredients tend to have more of the pain-relieving effects sought after by many medical users.

    Not necessarily -- "combustion" generally implies a self-sustained oxidization reaction, whereas "blackening" merely indicates that a number of the more complex molecules have been broken down -- "reduced" to carbon. For example, it is possible to blacken nearly any organic materials in the complete absence of oxygen -- a clear distinction/demonstration that combustion is definitely not required for blacking -- ie, the terms/events are identifiably distinct. You will know for sure when combustion occurs because it always results in ash -- generally a gray powdery residue.

    However, blackening is not really that desirable either, for it indicates that at least potentially some of the medicinal ingredients have been overheated, reducing them to less useful compounds -- ie that less than optimal efficiency has been obtained. Usually, it is recommended that frequent stirring between hits be used to prevent blackening, particularly as it improves the overall taste.

    -- Magic-Flight

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  8. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    Thank you. It means more to us when we know it means more to you. Enthusiasm is even more when it is truly shared. It makes spending time writing about such matters even more enjoyable.

    --

    This is a good question, and hard to answer without more specific research. It is my understanding, based as much on intuition and indirect reading as on anything I have myself seen measured directly, that the chances of such are significant -- that there are more likely to be more tars, if not also some level of increased chance of more harmful compounds released if any herbal material is heated to the point of significant blackening. However, the real question is "does it matter" -- ie, is this increased chance significant enough to be concerned about?

    To make this more explicit, it would be necessary to much more specific about what constitutes a "tar" and would be considered potentially harmful to health. For example, the presence of vaporized THC itself could by most professional (chemical) definitions be classified as a 'tar', and some people (more politically motivated) would also list it as "harmful to health", although most people (hopefully) know better. Thus, it becomes a matter of which polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and associated isomers are likely to occur and in what proportions as a result of any given level of overheating. As such, the overall question gets very complex very fast and admits of no simple interpretation other than the fairly obvious "significant overheating of herbal materials is generally bad".

    As such, the best I can realistically offer at this point is my unjustified opinion: As long as you do not heat herbs beyond the point at which more than about 15% of the load becomes more dark than dark chocolate brown, there is no cause or justification for worry. Beyond this, it is *probably* the case that even heating about 1/4 of a load nearly full black will have no detectable long term health effects as long as you are not doing so multiple times every single day for weeks at a time. It is also certain that even if you were to vaporize to these far limits, it is overall significantly less harmful than any type of smoking, including and especially that involving any amount of water filtration.

    Furthermore and finally, as many people on this forum are likely to already know, hundreds of politically minded groups have pressured many more scientists to find and publish ant possible research supporting any connection whatsoever between smoking various popular herbs and any measurable/functional health defect or decline. Given such consistent efforts over the last several decades, the failure of any one of these very motivated and well funded groups to widely and dramatically publish any significant or well justified evidence, I think that it is safe to assume/believe that no such connection exists. Therefore, for anyone here to spend any amount of time worrying about the possibility of harmful effects associated with occasionally somewhat overheating some 120 milligrams (max) of herb, given all of this, is probably unnecessary -- with a LB vaporizer you are probably as safe as it is possible to be.

    Again, I hope that this is helpful.
    -- Magic-Flight

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  9. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    The cyclone bowl was placed on the heating unit base before starting the heat, and it remained there for the duration of all tests. In later tests, we also carefully wrapped the entire glass system, heating element and cyclone bowl together, with 1 inch of quartz wool (an effective insulator). Thermal measurement points were also low-mass junctions suspended in the central portion of the hot air stream -- ie, as to not be affected by proximity effects associated with the glass. We also checked for dependencies associated with differing rates of airflow. If there were distortions in the results, it is probably not due to technique. We expect that these results would be repeatable by any interested researcher appropriately equipped.

    Bear in mind that even as verbose as my description of those tests and the results are, they are still somewhat of a simplification of the actual measurements/procedure. In particular, the degree of difference between the digital display and the temperature within the cyclone bowl itself is itself proportional to the degree of difference between either of these measurements and the ambient. In other words, if the E is set to 180C, the temperature loss will be lower -- more like 35C of 40C, whereas if you set the unit to 220C, the loss is more significant -- more like 60C to 65C. This is of course, assuming stasis. If the unit has not been given a chance -- enough minutes -- to warm the cyclone bowl, then the temp loss will be more.

    However, it is worth noting that vaporization itself is not going to happen exactly at a specific temperature. Rather, groups of associated compound types become more likely to transition to a vapor form more quickly as the temperature is increased. Certain types of effect tend to start becoming apparent even at rather low vaporization temperatures. Higher temperature does affect which compounds will be released, but it more significantly affects how fast and in which proportions they are released. Since it is not really so exactly important what specific temperature is used to cause vaporization to happen at all, it *is* the case that vaporizers can be practically useful even if the actual temperature at the herb seems to be somewhat low. As such, although the actual operating temperature of an E may be around 150C when the display is set to 180C, it will still work just fine. The behavior is consistent -- similar results whenever used, and responsive -- changing taste/results as the set temperature is increased -- that *functionally* the E works for most users just fine, regardless of the difference between the indicated temperature and the actual temperature in the cyclone bowl. The E remains a popular unit and a practical one for many people, regardless of these details.

    -- Magic-Flight

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  10. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    We would not have made the claim if we did not feel that it was well supported by the physical facts. We have done as much research on this topic (presented elsewhere in this thread, etc) as we believe to be necessary to assure the safety of all users of our product. Therefore, until someone provides us with some sort of real evidence/research (ie, something more supported than speculation and/or opinion), we will continue to suggest that it is not worth worrying about. We do also, however, encourage any and all interested parties to do their own research and come to their own conclusions -- particularly if they report back to us if there is found to be anything worth talking about and most especially if they can do so in a reasonably well informed and professional manner. So far, all indications have been that the temperatures involved are far too low for there to be anything worth thinking about.

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  11. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    Approximately 0.05 Ohm -- it is unlikely that you will be able to measure it directly using conventional equipment.

    The most likely causes of a problem like the one you are describing are 1) a torn screen or one detached from the connecting rods, or 2) that the battery is not making a good firm contact with the connecting rods, or 3) that the battery itself is not delivering the expected power. You should use the reconditioning cycle on your batteries when you get the Maha charger, and then check to ensure that the battery capacity is good (2000 mAh or more is best). Then check to ensure good battery contact in the Box -- the light should be on and lit -- turn and press the battery in the hole while watching the light. A gentle inspection of the screen itself should easily show anything wrong there. Let us know via private email if things do not check out.

    -- Magic-Flight

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  12. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    No impact on warranty. No expected impact on performance.

    I would recommend trying/applying in small doses at first, as you may find it affects the taste. You also may want to be careful of accidentally vaporizing the mint oil -- run the box open and empty for a few seconds after oiling to be sure that none of the mint oil remains on the screen.

    -- Magic-Flight

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  13. Zot

    Zot Vaping Phool

    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Blissful State of Mind
    The single most important variable that I have found when using the LB is this: the grind.

    I find that a really really fine grind works the best for me in terms of potency. I use a little Krups electric coffee grinder. Six or seven seconds creates almost a powder. The down side is that it is so fine it's hard not to get a little wastage unless you spend some time recovering the green powder on the sides of the grinder. The up side is a very powerful hit. :ko:

    I seem to get the nice taste off of more hits this way as well. And that's one of my favorite things about the LB; I love the way that my herb tastes - just like it smells on the bud.

    I've found the little mechanical grinder that I purchased with the LB to be a complete waste. It doesn't grind anywhere near as fine as I like. Ah well. :)

    What are other peoples 'most important variable'?

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  14. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    Hi,

    We have ABV'd one more engineering firm and contracted two more beyond that. It is definitely a challenge getting these built to spec! Cutting edge work, really. We have also (finally!) received our volume order for parts placed for certain key components last November. As such, is is fairly certain now that we will be able to see the very first instances to be in alpha testing by late July. People on this Forum will have significant priority and access to this initial run, (after our own engineering staff, of course).

    Yes, it is. Any NiMH battery can be charged in any reasonably good charger. The better the charger, the better the long term results/performance with the battery. Occasional conditioning cycles are good too.

    What you want to avoid are chargers that take more than about 6 hours to charge the battery. Slow chargers are generally very inexpensive, but they have no smarts, and can *eventually* degrade the cell if used improperly. Faster chargers depend on being smart. If they are not sufficient quality, they can also damage batteries due to overcharging (ie, failure to detect when it is full).

    No. If you are going to be regular about it, I would use the provided charger as is -- it is exactly what you want (that's why we ship them). In that case, you do not need to get LSD type batteries (what we ship), since you will be cycling them every few days in any case.

    I would expect minimum of 1/2 year of daily usage. After that, you will need to *may* need to replace cells that have been abused (overheated). Also, do not expect any battery to last more than 1.5 years -- the underlying technology has its limits.

    Part of the reason for designing with the AA package is to enable people to use our products forever. Maximum possible freedom -- reflects maximum possible enablement of the each users future choices. Its all about the aphorism on the bottom. Anyone who thinks prohibition is a good idea (remember the 1920s?) or tries to setup "user lock in" (think Apple corp. with no replaceable batteries) had best read it and know its truth. Love always (eventually) wins out.

    -- Magic-Flight

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  15. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    Yes. You can charge the battery at any time. However, it is good to cycle it by draining it completely from time to time -- will help it to last longer and accept more charger (say, once every 20 uses). A good conditioning will fully charge/discharge/recharge the battery several times in succession.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  16. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    Hi,

    There was one poster a while back that asked a lot of questions about this. This reply is a summary.

    - 1) To be clear, we must distinguish between the events of charging the
    battery and discharging the battery. With improper charging (ie, a
    cheap or malfunctioning battery charger) the battery can be made to
    vent (its not common, but it is possible). However, venting does not
    happen during discharging. The box only uses the battery in discharge
    mode. Therefore, there is no risk.

    - 2) The previous poster did not understand the function of the back
    construction hole and battery compartment and incorrectly claimed that
    it was coupled to the vapor chamber -- it is not. Therefore, even if
    the battery did vent (see 1 above) it would not be available for
    inhalation. Again, no risk.

    - 3) Assuming that somehow the battery did vent, in considering risk
    it is also worthwhile to consider what kind of gasses are involved and
    how much might be generated. From the chemistry the gas would only be
    H2 (hydrogen) and quantity is tiny (a few cm at most). Both the kind
    and the amount are biologically harmless. Again, no risk.

    In sum, the chances of this being any sort of issue while *using* the box is of no interest -- for those who like to worry, there are better candidates. For people who work with batteries in general, the above is considered to be common knowledge.

    However, in the interests of safety, I must also report that some chargers do not do as good a job detecting when a battery is already charged. If people put an already mostly charged battery into a fast charger, and that fast charger is not smart enough to detect this condition, it could potentially overcharge the battery causing it to get hot, and in particularly bad cases, to leak (not the end of the world). For some chargers, it can also be rather bad to put the battery in backwards (don't try it!). High quality chargers generally handle both of these conditions gracefully.

    We are currently working with our vendors to see if a custom charger without any of these flaws can be made. This will take time. Until then, I would recommend using the battery as fully as possible before recharging. I am aware that I have previously suggested that people could put the batteries back into the charger regardless, and that was known/verified to be true at the time. However, there are a lot of different kinds of chargers out there. For simplicity sake, and also to get the best value and life from the batteries I now recommend using them out before recharging.

    -- Magic-Flight

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  17. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    USA
    The Box itself should be fine at any temperature.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
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