Best cartridges for distillate

[water]

Read this thread and joined to comment.
I hopped onto the vape train with AbsoluteXtract prefilled carts as recommended by my dispo, and quickly wanted to save money by filling my own.
Pure Vape Lemon Haze was my first syringe which was great, but $50/g.
Searching for a cheaper alternative, I too was lured by the $20/g THClear syringes, but could quickly tell something wasn't right. The mouthfeel wasn't as clean as AbX nor Pure and had a few unusual coughing fits.
Got through 20% of THClear before refusing to vape another hit.
After searching a bit I stumbled upon Stiizy distillates that are available in Socal and have been pleased with them, though still $50/g.

A thread with preferred 'clean' brands based on geography would be amazing.

 

[ClearlyCannabis]

I’ve got some relatively runny mixed distillate and I’m looking for a cartridge that can handle it without leaking. The consistency is between e-juice and pure distillate but definitely a little runny. I was eyeing up the Vape710 v2.1 but I’m wondering if you folks have any recommendations based on the material I’m using.

 

[Silver420Surfer]

I’ve got some relatively runny mixed distillate and I’m looking for a cartridge that can handle it without leaking. The consistency is between e-juice and pure distillate but definitely a little runny. I was eyeing up the Vape710 v2.1 but I’m wondering if you folks have any recommendations based on the material I’m using.

Read through the thread, there are already TONS of recommendations of what you are asking.

 

[tennisguru1]

I’ve got some relatively runny mixed distillate and I’m looking for a cartridge that can handle it without leaking. The consistency is between e-juice and pure distillate but definitely a little runny. I was eyeing up the Vape710 v2.1 but I’m wondering if you folks have any recommendations based on the material I’m using.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-Adjus...c-Coil-Pen-Tank-/232461554799?var=&hash=item0

 

[ClearlyCannabis]

Read through the thread, there are already TONS of recommendations of what you are asking.

Will do, I skimmed about 5 pages and figured I’d ask. I’ll go back through them all again.

 

[Silver420Surfer]

Right on the 1st page of the thread.

 

[Roth]

After all the praise here, I just placed an order for a Vaporesso Tarot Nano kit w/Veco tank for $50.

Excited to try it. Really hoping the top air flow design eliminates all flooding/leaking issues.

 

[tiffa]

, smok x-TFV8 x-baby w/ RBA coil

I’m using this tank, but not that exact coil. I’m using cbd isolate ejuice and mixing terpenes into it. It leaks like a bitch. :/ suggestions?

I bought powdered isolate from Lazarus Naturals, PG and VG as I plan to dissolve it into Pg. I want to add VG to make it into an ejuice and add terpenes to it. I think my current tank will leak just the same.

You mentioned that this tank can handle dissolate as well? (Such as terpsolate from CBDistillery, maybe?)

(Medical cards aren’t ready until September 2018; plus, I’m uberly THC sensitive).

So I finally got a entire vaperesso kit and they have this setting that adjusts the voltage as you hold the button
It took me a week but I got it dialed in perfectly and just wow
My hunt for tanks is over the veco is the clear winner by far
It's even suriviced 4grams of dissalate so far on the same coil
Amazing taste
Unreal clouds
And hammer like effects
Thank you to whoever suggested it first
Serious game changer

This looks like something I may consider. My current tank has the rubber rings and they expanded. It caused leakage and I’m wasting my Ejuice (cbd isolate w/ pg and vg, and terpenes).

- using Cbd isolate (https://www.lazarusnaturals.com/shop/isolates/cbd-isolate-terpene-infused/) - raw
- mixed/dissolved into pg
- added vg
- added terpenes from Terpene Botanicals

So from what I’m reading, I could use isolate or dissolate in here, or even terpsolate? I wouldn’t have to add vg, pg, or anything?!

Terpsolate example: https://www.thecbdistillery.com/product/blue-dream-terpsolate/

I’m going to assume I cannot use the product from Lazarus Naturals in the tank without some sort of liquid / dissolving agent in a tank, however.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

I’m using this tank, but not that exact coil. I’m using cbd isolate ejuice and mixing terpenes into it. It leaks like a bitch. :/ suggestions?

Hi tiffa, welcome to FC. I'm sorry if you went and got this tank based on reading my posts and expected it to not leak on you based mostly on that. I may not have mentioned it specifically, but using the RBA coil is essential to this tank / atomizer combo not leaking out on me. I've had em sitting around for months now, refilled several times, standing up straight, laying sideways, upside down, every possible angle, hot cars / pockets, no leaking. The donuts in my coil get "flooded" but that is by design, and I'd rather consider my coils "saturated" or "soaking" which helps yield the smooth, rich, repeatable, tasty clouds they deliver. Avoiding spitting with thick distillate and co2 oils on a "saturated" RBA coil is easily controlled by the air throttle, too.

I may not have pointed it out, but the default coils for the smok X-baby tank with top-airflow (and all of their standard, bottom-air tanks) have the possibility to leak / flood out. You might even say they are prone to it, or that it would be inevitable.

I took some pics to illustrate how this could be

The RBA coil is on the left, standard on the right

the top of the coils pictured above

and the bottom

The X-baby is the only tank from smok with top airflow, which is necessary for any tank design to truly be leak-proof / leak resistant, IME. But simply having airflow enter from the top is not enough. Some top-air coil designs still route the airflow through the bottom of the coil and provide a hole at the bottom of the coil where oil / juice could possibly seep out, into the metal base of the tank, which could easily hold 1ml of juice, a gram of oil, or more! The vaporesso veco has a similar air flow dynamic going on, and fortunately I've heard of only 1 or 2 people having that problem with the veco coils flooding, but no leaks for everyone else it seems (the veco didn't leak on me also)

For the x-baby tank, you need to use the RBA coil, with it's fully sealed-off bottom floor, to be 100% leak free. All the air is routed internal to this coil, so there's simply no place for it to leak out from, if you have everything twisted in tightly.

You mentioned that this tank can handle dissolate as well? (Such as terpsolate from CBDistillery, maybe?)

This looks like something I may consider. My current tank has the rubber rings and they expanded. It caused leakage and I’m wasting my Ejuice (cbd isolate w/ pg and vg, and terpenes).

I’m going to assume I cannot use the product from Lazarus Naturals in the tank without some sort of liquid / dissolving agent in a tank, however.

That's the other issue that may be causing problems here. Many times, with nicotine juice applications, which this stuff is actually intended for, people don't see leaks that much. With the lighter viscosity / weight of the e-juice, the cotton can act as effective barrier and prevent the coil from getting flooded and leaking out. Other times, it does leak out. Hard to tell exactly why it does and doesn't sometimes.

But with your questionable terpene supply, it seems you are blowing out seals and dissolving them through, which makes it very tough to expect most tanks to not leak on you. With a tank like the cubis pro mini and the RBA coil for the x-baby (these are true top-air, non-leak tanks) you can still manage to keep your highly solvent mix from leaking out. The terpenes might eat up a silicon 510 plug and ruin the coil, but it won't leak out at least. Even the humble little liberty V9 carts offer a truly sealed bottom cup & center post design that really don't leak, they can TC, are easy to fill and they vape ok, and are newb friendly

But i would also advise a step-back for context....why tank? why terpenes? why pg and vg also? I see you're a fan of vaping on tanks, that's cool, and you want to do CBD, but are you adding terpenes just to liquefy the CBD crystals for the tank, or for added medical effect, or some combo of the 2?

Like inverted had advised you, If you just want to vape CBD and aren't too keen on the terepenes, and you're ok with the occasional reload, I would try out some load-as-you-go atomizers actually intended for vaping concentrates. Ceramic donut types are the better type IMO, but you can get metal coil types as well. Then you can use less / no terpenes and not worry about anything leaking or getting dissolved.

 

[tiffa]

Hi tiffa, welcome to FC. I'm sorry if you went and got this tank based on reading my posts and expected it to not leak on you based mostly on that. I may not have mentioned it specifically, but using the RBA coil is essential to this tank / atomizer combo not leaking out on me. I've had em sitting around for months now, refilled several times, standing up straight, laying sideways, upside down, every possible angle, hot cars / pockets, no leaking. The donuts in my coil get "flooded" but that is by design, and I'd rather consider my coils "saturated" or "soaking" which helps yield the smooth, rich, repeatable, tasty clouds they deliver. Avoiding spitting with thick distillate and co2 oils on a "saturated" RBA coil is easily controlled by the air throttle, too.

I may not have pointed it out, but the default coils for the smok X-baby tank with top-airflow (and all of their standard, bottom-air tanks) have the possibility to leak / flood out. You might even say they are prone to it, or that it would be inevitable.

I took some pics to illustrate how this could be

The RBA coil is on the left, standard on the right

the top of the coils pictured above

and the bottom

The X-baby is the only tank from smok with top airflow, which is necessary for any tank design to truly be leak-proof / leak resistant, IME. But simply having airflow enter from the top is not enough. Some top-air coil designs still route the airflow through the bottom of the coil and provide a hole at the bottom of the coil where oil / juice could possibly seep out, into the metal base of the tank, which could easily hold 1ml of juice, a gram of oil, or more! The vaporesso veco has a similar air flow dynamic going on, and fortunately I've heard of only 1 or 2 people having that problem with the veco coils flooding, but no leaks for everyone else it seems (the veco didn't leak on me also)

For the x-baby tank, you need to use the RBA coil, with it's fully sealed-off bottom floor, to be 100% leak free. All the air is routed internal to this coil, so there's simply no place for it to leak out from, if you have everything twisted in tightly.



That's the other issue that may be causing problems here. Many times, with nicotine juice applications, which this stuff is actually intended for, people don't see leaks that much. With the lighter viscosity / weight of the e-juice, the cotton can act as effective barrier and prevent the coil from getting flooded and leaking out. Other times, it does leak out. Hard to tell exactly why it does and doesn't sometimes.

But with your questionable terpene supply, it seems you are blowing out seals and dissolving them through, which makes it very tough to expect most tanks to not leak on you. With a tank like the cubis pro mini and the RBA coil for the x-baby (these are true top-air, non-leak tanks) you can still manage to keep your highly solvent mix from leaking out. The terpenes might eat up a silicon 510 plug and ruin the coil, but it won't leak out at least. Even the humble little liberty V9 carts offer a truly sealed bottom cup & center post design that really don't leak, they can TC, are easy to fill and they vape ok, and are newb friendly

But i would also advise a step-back for context....why tank? why terpenes? why pg and vg also? I see you're a fan of vaping on tanks, that's cool, and you want to do CBD, but are you adding terpenes just to liquefy the CBD crystals for the tank, or for added medical effect, or some combo of the 2?

Like inverted had advised you, If you just want to vape CBD and aren't too keen on the terepenes, and you're ok with the occasional reload, I would try out some load-as-you-go atomizers actually intended for vaping concentrates. Ceramic donut types are the better type IMO, but you can get metal coil types as well. Then you can use less / no terpenes and not worry about anything leaking or getting dissolved.

Thank you so much for such a long response.

Not to worry, I purchased the tank before I discovered this page. My melo ii tank shattered and needed a new tank for my mod. I will certainly look into the rba coil, but it will not help my rubbers. The top rubber expanded and it’s hard to shut the top of the tank.

As of now, medical mj is not available in Ohio until September. After speaking to a few savvy friends, they’re unable to find a liquid. Apparently it’s also hard to find strain specific mj (such as ac/dc or harlequin). This is why I’ve been getting terpenes. I only found one CBD vape so far that is “concentrated”, and it’s $200 per 30mL. No way! It also doesn’t have a specific profile.

I’ve been using a cbd isolate vape (pg/vg) from Bluebird Botanicals instead. I’ve been mixing a drop of Harlequin terpenes (from Terpene Botanicals) with the vape juice. Altough significantly more cost effective, I found it’s cheaper to mix my own isolate.

The only way I know how to make vape juice is by dissolving the cbd isolate powder in with the pg. and then add vg and terpenes to the mix. I have not done this yet. All the materials are on their way. I’m not sure what else to use.

I knew you could “dab” cbd and/or THC crystals or wax. I didn’t know you could do something similar with powder isolate. I’m clueless about the type of handheld device to use or how much. I also doubt it’ll last all month. My cbd oil (30 mL / 1000mg) lasts me all month.

 

[Roth]

@420democrat @Vape Donkey 650

What settings have you found to be best using the Veco tank with distillate? My Tarot Nano kit came in yesterday, and hoping to get a chance to load it up today.

Thanks!

 

[ani007]

total newb here. going to buy a 510 pen and looking at these carts https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pack-CCE...413438?hash=item1a387618fe:g:uW4AAOSwHYpaO8sH

how do i refill these do carts unscrew from the top? my first time trying. have a THClear pineapple express syringe and their honey jar thing of fruity dream. want to make it portable and prefilled carts are more expensive.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

@420democrat @Vape Donkey 650

What settings have you found to be best using the Veco tank with distillate? My Tarot Nano kit came in yesterday, and hoping to get a chance to load it up today.

Thanks!

I haven't used the veco recently, but with various atomizers with ccell-type heaters, I've found @Steven's recommended TCR 140 to work well, and 25-40w, 400's F for the ccell coils on the veco is the range you want your mod to be set at. Depending on whether you have the high or low resistance EUC/ccell coil will determine a little higher or lower watt setting on TC mode, or your preference.

You can use the default TC-SS mode on your mod (which is TCR 120) if you don't care to input a manual TCR #, or you mod doesn't let you, or you don't know how, but I find the higher # a bit more accurate.

Thank you so much for such a long response.

Not to worry, I purchased the tank before I discovered this page. My melo ii tank shattered and needed a new tank for my mod. I will certainly look into the rba coil, but it will not help my rubbers. The top rubber expanded and it’s hard to shut the top of the tank.

As of now, medical mj is not available in Ohio until September. After speaking to a few savvy friends, they’re unable to find a liquid. Apparently it’s also hard to find strain specific mj (such as ac/dc or harlequin). This is why I’ve been getting terpenes. I only found one CBD vape so far that is “concentrated”, and it’s $200 per 30mL. No way! It also doesn’t have a specific profile.

I’ve been using a cbd isolate vape (pg/vg) from Bluebird Botanicals instead. I’ve been mixing a drop of Harlequin terpenes (from Terpene Botanicals) with the vape juice. Altough significantly more cost effective, I found it’s cheaper to mix my own isolate.

The only way I know how to make vape juice is by dissolving the cbd isolate powder in with the pg. and then add vg and terpenes to the mix. I have not done this yet. All the materials are on their way. I’m not sure what else to use.

I knew you could “dab” cbd and/or THC crystals or wax. I didn’t know you could do something similar with powder isolate. I’m clueless about the type of handheld device to use or how much. I also doubt it’ll last all month. My cbd oil (30 mL / 1000mg) lasts me all month.

No problem, I don't know why I try to help out random people sometimes. To help avoid the same mistakes I've made, I guess. At least you already head the X-baby tank. If you're really set on keeping with the tank delivery method, you can be sure of not leaking with the RBA coil, but I'm feeling like something's really wrong if your terp mix warps your silicon seals and I would re-examine the whole liquefying CBD isolate idea.

I know it sucks with the situation in getting the right meds you need in your state, and it seems to me that prohibition in many states and jurisdictions is a major driver of people's desire to self-liquefy solid concentrates for tank use, because they don't have access to quality co2 & distillate oil, which is naturally well-suited to tanks and doesn't need any home alchemy to fill it in a tank. Even for me, getting decent, affordable CBD-rich concentrates in a "runny" form (co2 & distillate) that aren't adulterated / cut / diluted is actually not easy. I can get CBD shatters, live resins, saps and CBDa rocks all day, but good cbd-rich co2 oil is hard to come by; I've never even seen CBD distillate oil, though I'd imagine it exists?

Basically, I would look into load-as-you-go "dabbing" atomizers for your CBD isolate. Your CBD is basically the same thing as my big chunky CBDa crystalline, except yours is derived from industrial hemp and ground into a fine dust, not large crystals. You only need to load small amounts, ~20mg or so, for a good medicating session; added terpenes and glycerins are optional. It's a little more effort to use and load each time vs. a tank, but if it can make the same 1000mg last you as long, maybe it can if you're ok with dosing slightly larger amounts less often, vs taking 0.5 or 1mg of CBD per puff in a tank? And then you don't have to worry about dissolving silicon seals and leaking out. Leaking your meds out from your tank is never effective administration.

I hear you on the price man, but avoid THClear unless you like 51% THC and off the charts readings of myclobutanil.

Hey, thanks for posting that, unfortunately, I had experimented thoroughly with the THClear syringes and honey buckets also, and those results match my gut-feeling read of that product...it's pure crap, diluted with way too much cheap terps. They claim 75-85% thc for the syringes, which would be good, but if it's really 51%, does that mean they're stuffing, 30, 40% terpenes in that syringe? And gross, fake, low-quality, gaudy terpenes at that. Not like HTFSE. Way too intense at first, and then they sour and get dark very quickly, sitting in the tank after being used.

The residual pesticides are of concern as well, but I think ~2ppm is not as "off-the-chart" and harmful as half a syringe full of industrial terps? Or is it? I think those pesticide levels are in line with many concentrates in this state, unfortunately. I was having a conversation about these residual levels and the new limits the state has imposed, and my friend was musing on how they may be TOO strict, where even clean, organically grown flowers and concentrates extracted from them are failing! But when I mentioned your test with the 2ppm of the myclobutanil on the THClears, even that is too much, my friend said.

Is that a repost or are you the owner of that IG account? So it's your mission to go around testing random tanks out of your pocket? wow (if that's you)

total newb here. going to buy a 510 pen and looking at these carts https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pack-CCE...413438?hash=item1a387618fe:g:uW4AAOSwHYpaO8sH

how do i refill these do carts unscrew from the top? my first time trying. have a THClear pineapple express syringe and their honey jar thing of fruity dream. want to make it portable and prefilled carts are more expensive.

Yes you fill those tanks by unscrewing the top and filling, then re-screw the top back in.

Those tanks look pretty overpriced and ordinary. With the bottom airflow entering the coil and tank, that's the type of tank that is more likely to leak out on you and I would avoid it. There are plenty of other good options recommended in this thread here. Read up...

And as for the pineapple express THClear...i hope you have other options available for distillate in a syringe.....

 

[ani007]

Yes you fill those tanks by unscrewing the top and filling, then re-screw the top back in.

Those tanks look pretty overpriced and ordinary. With the bottom airflow entering the coil and tank, that's the type of tank that is more likely to leak out on you and I would avoid it. There are plenty of other good options recommended in this thread here. Read up...

And as for the pineapple express THClear...i hope you have other options available for distillate in a syringe.....

sucks to hear THClear isn't as reliable as i thought. yeah i'm a first timer and probably wont use it as much as my rig. they have liberty V9 tanks too i think. just didn't want to wait for shipping from Canada from vape710.ca

cana anyone in california can reccomend concentrates and brands? I'm in the middle of LA and OC in bellflower so clsoe to both. Don't want to spend more than 50-60 a gram. been spending half that like 30 but want to try better stuff. ordered THClear three times already :/ you think their shatters might be ok cause no added terps and hopefully pesticides issues have been resolved...

 

[DTLA]

@420democrat @Vape Donkey 650

What settings have you found to be best using the Veco tank with distillate? My Tarot Nano kit came in yesterday, and hoping to get a chance to load it up today.

Thanks!

I just got a nebula with veco plus last night. I set the 6ohm ceramic at 21.5W. It is tasty, foggy and packs a punch!

Long time Saionara user here. Got this because I am tired of LAYG, especially when out, and the wax liquidizer adds a fun pineapple thing.

 

[DTLA]

sucks to hear THClear isn't as reliable as i thought. yeah i'm a first timer and probably wont use it as much as my rig. they have liberty V9 tanks too i think. just didn't want to wait for shipping from Canada from vape710.ca

cana anyone in california can reccomend concentrates and brands? I'm in the middle of LA and OC in bellflower so clsoe to both. Don't want to spend more than 50-60 a gram. been spending half that like 30 but want to try better stuff. ordered THClear three times already :/ you think their shatters might be ok cause no added terps and hopefully pesticides issues have been resolved...

If you can find West Coast Concentrates...I reccomend. Black label is heavy hitter stuff like Hard Glue (a Wiz Khalifa fav) Red label a little softer like Tangie. Both are excellent. T.I.T.S (Black label) is a great Sativa!

 

[ani007]

If you can find West Coast Concentrates...I reccomend. Black label is heavy hitter stuff like Hard Glue (a Wiz Khalifa fav) Red label a little softer like Tangie. Both are excellent. T.I.T.S (Black label) is a great Sativa!

much appreciate the advice. the thclear syringe was like water and too much artificial terps mixed it with honey jar from them and regretted cause the honey was alright. i might get their xxx shatter again but gonna give WCC a whirl or some other reputable company

 

[Silver420Surfer]

The evolab carts have been great for refilling.
https://www.evolab.com/merchplaceholder/3-empty-evolab-cartridges

I think these are pretty much the same ones and a bit cheaper. I haven't had one leak/clog/etc yet. Ships pretty fast too. I've run both thicker and thinner with no problems. Iso rinse and good to refill again.
5/10-Pack 0.5ml Leak Proof Oil Cartridges Dual Coil Glass Tank

 

[DTLA]

much appreciate the advice. the thclear syringe was like water and too much artificial terps mixed it with honey jar from them and regretted cause the honey was alright. i might get their xxx shatter again but gonna give WCC a whirl or some other reputable company

Can't figure out how to post links or pics, sorry.

Check their name on weedmaps (West Coast Cure)

 

[Aizen-sama]

The residual pesticides are of concern as well, but I think ~2ppm is not as "off-the-chart" and harmful as half a syringe full of industrial terps? Or is it?

It's actually greater than >2.0 which means they can't measure any higher with precision. Hence it's off the charts. The regulatory limit is 0.1 ppm for inhaleable products. It also failed for Paclobutrazol which is Category 1 aka instant fail if any is detected.

I am not the owner of that account but he is doing an incredible service to the community and I like to share it when I can. The dude has spent thousands of dollars on this project so the least I can do is make sure people see it.

Our limits on testing are in line with other legal states and long overdue. I forget where I read it but SC Labs said that in CA flower tests dirty at a rate of 5-20% of samples, traditional concentrates at around 35-50%, BHO 60-70%, and advanced concentrates like CO² at 75-85% of samples. The issue is that the actives and the pesticides do not concentrate at the same factor, while the THC might be 5-7x the flower it came from the pesticide could be 100x. There are ways to clean it up and procedures for retesting in the regs, so I think it will move in the right direction.

High time the industry makes safe meds for us in line with other legal states.

cana anyone in california can reccomend concentrates and brands?

Not sure if any of these brands offer anything in a syringe, but their prefilled stuff tested clean and at advertised potency: Honey Vape, Rove, Kurvana, Interstate 710, and Bloom Farms. Stiiizy, Select Elite, and Jetty came back clean but below advertised potency. See the insta account I linked to previously. I stick with Kurvana's products personally because I prefer the thinner consistency of their oil out of these options.

 

[Adobewan]

I found a standard 510 battery with an Apex labs Ccell cartridge set up to be perfect for thick distillate with no leaking and the purest flavor.

I tried Apex' Palm battery, a small, sleek, draw powered battery, but found it to heat the Ccell just a bit too much. A standard battery seems to be just right.

The taste of the distillate does not degrade, with a number of grams run thru the Ccell, no burnt taste, down to the last drop!

 

[Smoke1ForMe]

I found a standard 510 battery with an Apex labs Ccell cartridge set up to be perfect for thick distillate with no leaking and the purest flavor.

I tried Apex' Palm battery, a small, sleek, draw powered battery, but found it to heat the Ccell just a bit too much. A standard battery seems to be just right.

The taste of the distillate does not degrade, with a number of grams run thru the Ccell, no burnt taste, down to the last drop!

Where do you order the apax labs ccell cart from? I have a couple syringes of honey vape that is pretty thick.

Now with the increased taxes it is cheaper to pick up a syringe instead of a prefilled cart.

 

[Adobewan]

Where do you order the apax labs ccell cart from? I have a couple syringes of honey vape that is pretty thick.

Now with the increased taxes it is cheaper to pick up a syringe instead of a prefilled cart.

Here you go @Smoke1ForMe
https://shopapexlab.com/shop/1-0ml-ccell-glass-ceramic-vaporizer-cartridge-th210/

 

[iloveCBD]

I recommend Amber industries, theres a good amber industries review at dab connection https://dabconnection.com/reviews/amber-industries/

Its some of the best distillate cartridges I ever had for a 510 vape battery.

 

[420democrat]

Sorry I've been mia for a while guys my car project has taken the better of my time and money

Still using my veco with straight clear and terpenes no real issues at all haven't really wanted to venture out
Possibly would like to dilute my clear some more but I'm on the fence