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Arizer Air II

Discussion in 'Portable Vaporizers' started by jakeattack77, Aug 30, 2017.

  1. 9.Fingers

    9.Fingers Health Conscious Guru

    Messages:
    35
    Sick, we got the same color! Mine will be here tomorrow, so ready!
     
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  2. sammuel

    sammuel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    175
    Cool :tup: Is this the Bubble Straw or the Easy Flow bubbler?
     
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  3. narrowsparrow

    narrowsparrow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    San Antonio, Texas
    I am having issues with the new Arizer battery (the lime green one). I am trying to take care of it properly, but after only three months, the battery has totally quit charging. I do not use a third party charger, and I do not leave the Air 2 plugged in all the time. After I use it, I leave it unplugged until I think I'll be using it. Then I allow it to charge up again. Now I get "low battery" on the screen, even though it indicates that the battery is 88% charged. If I plug it in to charge past 88%, it will not go up even one degree. It's like a dead battery as there is no draw at all. The unit is stone cold. Of course, the batteries are not under warranty, and they are pretty expensive to be "disposables." What am I doing wrong?
     
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  4. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    In the shop
    You are high cycling the cell. Let it drain down before before you recharge.
    Get an external charger. Spend more than 20$

    a new cell from IMRbatteries.

    https://www.imrbatteries.com/panasonic-ncr18650b-18650-3400mah-4-8a-flat-top-battery/

    Bubble Straw. How the hell do you get all the water out of this thing? :hmm:
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  5. armani

    armani Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    74
    First warning on that site:
    DO NOT USE WITH E-CIGARETTE, VAPORIZER, OR SIMILAR DEVICE

    Is it the exact same as Arizer uses?
     
    OF likes this.
  6. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

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    399
    Location:
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    They are covering their asses for legal reasons. Has to do with ecig laws.

    Yes same cell

    ______________________________________

    General comment:
    Since the threads are anodized aluminum they need to be waxed. Paraffin works very well. Beeswax mixed with sunflower oil also very good.
     
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  7. LabPong

    LabPong Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    932
    Location:
    BuckFumbustion
    Yea this was always my issue....cleaning it out....or just drying it out.

    When you are ready to clean or replace the water......

    Pull any screen out of the load end....
    Put in your mouth over a sink and blow it out several times. You will get most out...
    Put in some ISO......shaky shake shake it up.
    Blow out again.....
    Rinse with or just use distilled water and repeat the rinse cycle again....
    Lay out in some open/moving air area....and should be ok next day.......

    That's all I could figure out to keep the inside clean.
     
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  8. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,696
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Very interesting. Something I'd never heard of before? An issue with other chemistry cells, but not so with Li-ions? For instance:
    http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

    Please note table 2. 100% DOD gives 300 cycles, 1/5 of that (20% DOD) gives five times the cycles (1500)? 10% actually delivers more useful service, 10,000 cycles? 1/10 the capacity but over 30 times the lifespan?

    What is very important is to avoid, if possible, near full charge or deep discharge. And heat, of course. Frequent charging 'mid range' is not a sin.

    On what is this advice based? TIA

    OF

    Yes, that's the same part used by Arizer as far as we know. There might be some small difference in 'grades', but that's generally something like a 5% range, useful for matching for big packs, but not to us?

    The warning is genuine, but routinely overlooked/avoided. I raised this very point a while ago when I came across it in another thread, so I did a bit of research.
    http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/divine-tribe-attys.14455/page-142#post-1212740
    http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/18650-battery-safety.18527/page-5#post-1212657

    Please see below for what I found.

    Actually no, it doesn't. AFAIK there are no real 'ecig laws'? Do you have a reference?

    The basic problem here is none of the four makers (Sony, LG, Panasonic/Sanyo, and Samsung) make loose 18650s intended for use that way.
    Repeating, no maker 'authorizes' their product for use other than in built up packs with built in protections. Like auto battery packs. Or tabbed 18650s put in products with the required protections built in. You'll find a similar warning printed on many cells?

    The bottom line is everything we can buy is secondary market.
    Repeating, nobody makes and sells 18650s for use in vapes......not reputable makers at any rate. Even from IMR as I understand it.

    The warning is real, as are the dangers. Those little guys are full of toxic electrolyte that's also very flammable just to keep things fun. Sony has no control of how loose cells might be used, IMR seems instead to be following lawyer advice? To avoid suits, not to comply with some law/regulation.

    While it's not a matter of ecig laws/regulations, we still live in a 'tort happy world' where parents that have a child born with less than ten toes and ten fingers want to sue the Obstetrician?

    The use is not approved, but is obviously quite common (although a tiny volume of 18650 production). And quite dangerous if not treated with proper respect.

    Regards to all. It's raining here, which is welcome.

    OF
     
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  9. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    In the shop
    Cycle a li cell between 80 and 100% charged and see how long it lasts. Cells are most stressed from 0-20% and 80-100%

    When the FDA labeled ecigs and all related equipment “tobacco products” these messages were added to lots of suppliers sites to remove that problem. Yes a cell sold for use in a ecig is a tobacco product. Crazy :mental:
     
    OF likes this.
  10. UnevenPizza

    UnevenPizza I dream of Pizza

    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    Mount Improbable
    Wow, that's freakin' sweet.

    I think I'm gonna pick up a bubbler straw like that!
     
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  11. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    In the shop
    Don’t bother putting water in it. Kills the flavor.
     
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  12. sammuel

    sammuel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    175
    that would make it just a straw with no bubbler :p might as well use a regular glass mouthpiece
     
  13. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    In the shop
    Definitely different from the straight stems. Cools better
     
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  14. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,696
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Thanks, but no references?

    I don't need to personally test such things, professional/experts have done so and published the results. Like BU. And the makers, any of them advise this? If their long public advice was lame it's sure to have been corrected by now, either by knowledgeable customers or nasty letters on long paper from lawyers.

    Even a year's storage at 100% doesn't kill a cell, just cuts into the capacity some.

    It's also important to remember that experience 'pressing the limits' in serious ecig 'builds' is not relevant here. Air II uses it's cell at very modest levels (under 5 Amps) under full protection, which is why it runs so long? Serious testing fills that void, no need for guesses. IMO the NCR18650B is the ideal choice based on that testing, no doubt why Arizer selected it.

    FWIW this does not square with my understanding. And references? From what I can find they have some interest in "Certain batteries" (about half way down):
    https://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/ProductsIngredientsComponents/ucm456610.htm

    They are, of course, not talking about loose 18650s here (which are technically cells), but what the industry calls 'batteries', the mods and other supplies that drive ecigs. And it's "Certain" ones, not all, we can assume those known or found to have problems. A design/quality issue, not chemistry used to store power. And IMO someone should take an interest, there's a lot of scary junk out there and too many accidents. It's always hard to predict what bureaucracies are likely to do, but absent any evidence of FDA regulations on 18650s I'll stick with my idea that such warning spring from other areas.

    FWIW none of my gear has any FDA indications? How do they separate the 18650s I bought and used in my vapes, flashlights and radio?

    Thanks again, I'd be most interested in (and appreciative of) any references.

    True enough, but there are other reasons in play here? I use them to restore moisture to the very dry air/vapor, to save my throat. I'm confident I'm not alone here.

    I've even been known to put damp pipe cleaners into the Solo stems above the load for this same reason.

    OF
     
  15. LabPong

    LabPong Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    932
    Location:
    BuckFumbustion
    Yup that is what I found as well....much cooler vapor even over the longer bent stem I found. I will have to test the mini bubbler again with and without the water to see how the taste is for me.
     
  16. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    In the shop
    Made a stem. A2 Steel and Blackwood.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Can you be a bit more succinct
     
  17. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,696
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Interesting project, and pretty, too. Like Ed's, but different in details. How do you retain the screen, like he does (with circlips)?

    How well does it work? I'm guessing all that steel sinking heat away will be a problem? With Ed's stems (which have a much more modest content of SS) we have to 'bump up' a step (or more?) in temperature to cover the increased losses. Tool steel is not what I'd have gone for, corrosion aside, we don't need toughness or easy hardening but would like poorer heat conduction? And thinner heat paths and lower thermal mass to heat?

    Anyway, fun project, how does it work? My guess is it'll be a bigger problem conducting heat out of the load than Ed has?

    TIA

    OF
     
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  18. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    In the shop
    Works well. I chose the material because of its thermal properties. I removed as much mass as I could. The inside is mostly hollow

    The screen sits above a plenum on a ridge

    [​IMG]

    Like this

    [​IMG]

    I think this is the reference you should start with. https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-food-drug-and-cosmetic-act-as-amended-by-the
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  19. 9.Fingers

    9.Fingers Health Conscious Guru

    Messages:
    35
    So what is the takeaway from all this as far as keeping the default Arizer Air 2 battery healthy and lasting? Discharge to about 30-40% before charging and then not charging all the way up to 100%? Or am I missing something?
     
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  20. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,696
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Thanks. But that's not what I asked for? At least not what I wanted. I was looking for some reference to back up your claims? Not some huge Fed Register document........

    But while we're on the subject of it, how about the future scope part:

    "In addition, this final rule deems any additional current and future tobacco products that meet the statutory definition of “tobacco product,” except accessories of such newly deemed products, to be subject to FDA's authorities under chapter IX of the FD&C Act. For example, FDA envisions that there could be tobacco products developed in the future that provide nicotine delivery through means (e.g., via dermal absorption or intranasal spray) similar to currently marketed medicinal nicotine products, but which are not drugs or devices. These products would be “tobacco products” and subject to FDA's chapter IX authorities in accordance with this final deeming rule."

    As I read that such future (where we are) "tobacco products" specifically excludes accessories? This is about nicotine and I seriously doubt covers 18650s. Not even the mods they're in? Only the 'juice' and what delivers it........

    Yes, that remains my advice. Has been for a while, since I looked into what kills of the battery pack we can't change out. In fact, based on that I built my series of 'gadgets' to automatically terminate charge 10 or 15% early. One version looks like this:
    [​IMG]

    The normal charger plugs in upper left, the cable into Solo. The processor monitors charging current and drops out when it starts to taper off at end of charge. This has been very successful it seems. So, taking the same rig and breaking the 12VDC down to five lets me charge Air and other 5 Volt (USB) vapes. Every time I use it (and it cuts off early) I get a 'free recharge cycle' at the expense of a fraction of a session. Not as important with Air where the replacement is easy and cheap.

    FWIW this is a prototype with the external regulator (at the bottom):
    [​IMG]

    But yes, in general:
    • Fully charge (even 'overcharge') before first use. First time only, any benefit is lost after the first serious discharge.......avoid even 'quick heating tests'.
    • Stop charging early when you can.....or enjoy an immediate session 'for the battery's sake'
    • Avoid deep discharges, hitting the limit is bad
    • No penalty for early recharges, do as convenient?
    • Keep 'em cool
    • Know that 'use while charging' is hard on the battery, my advice is use it or charge it but not both at the same time.
    Otherwise, you bought the vape to enjoy not obsess over battery life?

    Regards to all.

    OF
     
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  21. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    In the shop
    https://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/ProductsIngredientsComponents/ucm456610.htm

    Since 18650s are a necessary component of a ecig they fall under the FDAs jurisdiction if sold for that purpose.

    Back on topic.

    I’m loving this little purple combustion fucker

    Don’t confuse optimal cycle numbers with this application.

    Just don’t keep it fully charged all the time. Also fast charging cells will degrade them more than slow charging. I charge mine at 0.25A

    But seriously, they cost 7$ each. This isn’t something to worry about. Mine last for years.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  22. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,696
    Location:
    Left Coast
    That link looks like the one I gave you earlier, the one that lists "CERTAIN batteries"? It also says "including components and parts of ENDS but excluding accessories". Exuding accessories. 19650s are accessories to accessories for RDAs and such?

    Everything I could find says that warning comes from the distributors on the 18650s. This fellow 'Mooch' some Member (KZ?) put me onto goes into this part, an artifact of the fact that Sony, Panasonic et al don't sell to folks that sell to end users like us. Everything we can buy is 'gray market'? They sell to guys making car battery packs and stuff. I think this is why we see such warning some places and not others. If it was a matter of FDC regulation I'd expect it to be more universal?

    Yes, you have to compare total cycles times capacity per cycle to get the total Wh of power delivered over it's lifespan. In the Solo case, looking at sessions, cutting one session (about 10% off means you get (600 times 7) 4,200 sessions as opposed to 300 times 8 for (2,400 total) as estimates? Worth considering, IMO.

    For sure avoid 'fully charged, ready to go'. I think we all know a cell phone or laptop that now has wrenched battery life because of this? This is also why new cells come about 2/3 charged, or should.

    I disagree about charging rates. In theory cells can usually charge at the same rate they discharge, the chemical reactions are 100% reversible. The usual call is for a c of .5 to 1 I think (one to two hours to recharge?), in the case of Air II and our NCR18650B the maker calls for 1675mA:
    https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/NCR18650B.pdf

    In our case, Arizer sets it at a bit over half that, due to limits on the USB source I suspect. There's a danger in charging big capacity cells at very slow rates (low current). CC/CV charging (as we use) depends on the CC part since it determines the current when the CV part gets cut off (or it would never stop charging......). Typically this is 10% of the maximum. 25mA (10% of 250mA) is not much to a 3000 plus mAh cell......it will end up with a more complete charge than the maker ever intended?

    My 'Gadget' charge terminator works on this principle, it monitors current and detects the CC/CV change over then tracks it as it drops. Notice the current curve on the first graph on the spec sheet? I go a fixed percentage (set by the Blue adjustment on the Gadget) down that curve and then cut charging.

    Unlike some other battery types, 'trickle' charging is not a good thing. Like some NiMH chargers, normal or nearly normal charging rate (current) is important. I know of no documented advantage to slower than allowed recharge rates. I cannot recommend intentionally recharging at a lower rate in the hopes of longer battery life. Quite the opposite could happen?

    Your call, of course, your gear. Just not what I recommend for the above reasons. FWIW I tend to recharge in place, using the factory current, rather than an external charger. And when I do, I usually charge 18650s at as high a current as the charger allows. Faster, too.

    OF
     
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  23. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    In the shop
    When My business started building power supplies and Genesis attys in 09’ I had to do all the testing myself. I’ve spent ~35,000$ testing this exact type equipment and cells from all over the world.

    Mooch is a old friend of mine. I helped him understand vaping technology and get off smokes. Needless to say I’m quite fimilar with all this. The Ecig industry is extremely fractured for a reason. We designed it to be a hydra. Shut down one two pop up. Because of this it’s very variant. We also designed ecigs to be unstoppable because the potential benefits to humanity were so huge. We decided early on no part would be patented by anyone. It’s completely open source. That way big business could not own it. None of the parts used can be regulated because they are used for many other things. The FDA can’t even reschedule nicotine. Big tobacco would go nuts.

    I’m rambling...

    Heat caused by fast charging cells is what does the damage. Keeping them cool prolongs the life.

    You have lots of good theories, I don’t want to dissuade you. Just remember academic theory is often quite different than reality.

    The walls of text are a bit much

    Back on topic:

    The Air II is really really efficient. Glad I bought it.
    Currently using 4 year old LGHG2 that I use every day, still holds 2950mAh.
     
  24. UnevenPizza

    UnevenPizza I dream of Pizza

    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    Mount Improbable
    Tasdt eowow strong even though water
    best technique start slow and low and after a few seconds increase 2-3x fold !!! Mega cloud! After 2nd half
    of the heat ccycle

    come back later just quic notes f
    fresh amnesia mega tastey through water mmmm will try dry later love yall
    @OF I passed my physics exam
    CHEERS PEOPLE THIS VAPE IS Amazazing
     
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  25. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,696
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Congratulations! Never an easy goal, there's always something more to come? And each part has to be fit carefully into what you already know. Brick by brick. Well done, time to take a 'study break' of respectable proportions. Seems you've got that under control as well.......

    You're spot on, the entire line is amazing to me, I have a hard time between Solo, Air and now ArGo.

    Regards to all, best weekend wishes.

    OF
     
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