Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety

[zmurder]

Back to materials, I wanted to quote stickstones from the 'dog thread:

I'll take you up on that, Dave. I mentioned that my HI has none of that stuff in it, but you brought something up I thought about when looking at it...the resistor, or heating element used. I think the way it works (and feel free to correct me wherever I screw up) is that the air heats up via contact with the resistor and then goes straight to the herb. If that's right, then I do wonder about the safety of that thing in the airpath (I don't know what it's made of). My PD's have the air going through the SS heat sink, like I think you make your Dogs, which means the only materials safety issue there is stainless steel, which I think we have all pretty much landed on as safe.

Come to think about it, this would probably be more suited to discussion in the other thread, if you want. I would like to hear more about the pros and cons of a closed airpath vs. an open one.

Is the resistor not in the airpath in the UD and PD? I thought it was in the airpath in pretty much all log vapes. But I'm genuinely asking.

 

[Vicki]

if the Mods allow i will show you where in the first post, she designed a 'hit'. sly but subtle. maybe i should report it because it is an underhanded passive aggresive technique ie not nice so it's against the rules.

You're kidding, right?? I read the post, and it seemed to me that all she wanted were answers to her questions. I'd like to know about the safety myself.

 

[underdog]

@ stickstones - (per your comment in the UD thread) as I touched on in some of my posts earlier in this thread I think that one of the important aspects of core design is to decide whether an open core or a closed core is appropriate for the design in question. As a manufacturer I've obviously given this some thought so lets discuss it.

So as to not have to retype what I already wrote I'm copying and pasting my comments from earlier:

With core / air path design I think one has to first decide whether or not the core should be closed or open.

If it's open you'll have exposure to the heated wood, potential charring, the solder and flux and the metal/plastic power plug assembly.

If it's closed you can eliminate exposure to those materials but at the expense of potential exposure to whatever material is being used to close the core.

In my design I decided I'd rather attempt to seal the core and deal with the potential exposure to the silicone from that little wire gap past the bead. To me that was the lesser of the evils and so that's the design I chose to go with. Of course other people might make a different decision and luckily I can accommodate that choice if requested.

I think my earlier comments sum up situation fairly well.

Closed Cores:

• The pros of closing the core are greater ability to control exposure to any undesirable elements, control over the path air takes in the product and even potential performance gains because of the better air control.

• The cons are increased manufacturing complexity and expense, some design constraints and having to choose a material with which to close the core. The material used to close the core needs to be safe, practical to use, an electrical insulator and able to withstand continuous temperatures in the 400 degree range. For me silicone has been the best material I've found for closing the core as in my mind it meets all those criteria and does a great job in practice.

Open Cores:

• The pros of an open core are simplified design and manufacturing, a much easier ability to design a user serviceable vaporizer and no need to find a solution to the problem of how to close a core.

• The cons are significant design constraints (like having to have an inline power plug and resistor for example), increased difficultly controlling the air path/flow and having to be concerned about multiple material safety issues instead of just one. Exposure to the heated wood, potential charring, the solder and flux and the metal/plastic power plug assembly to me are the primary material safety concerns with this type of core.

Many types of wood used in Log vapes (including common domestic ones not just exotics) are respiratory irritants and quite a few are outright toxic to varying degrees. There is also the possibility of inhaling charred material and while I don't know the potential concerns of that it doesn't seem like a good thing if it can be avoided. The solder (even lead free) has the potential exposure hazard of various metal toxicities and the flux as well. The metal/plastic power plug assemblies are usually what would be considered "pot metal" and are of unknown alloys and materials made at the lowest possible cost in China which I think is a concern as well.

It's my belief that a vape core design is a compromise and balancing act between the above pros and cons for both types. For my design (and I'm not saying mine is best) I decided that I was more comfortable with the glass bead/silicone potting and being potentially exposed to the little bit of silicone vs being exposed to the rest of the vape materials in totality. With the open core (and I did experiment with some) I just couldn't get behind the idea that anything coming off any part of the vape and it's materials would just waft right up the core and into my stem. I decided I'd take my chances with the silicone and still think that's the right choice for UD.

::edited to add the following::

The resistor that all log manufacturers use (to my knowledge) is a resistance wire (Nichrome probably) that's wrapped around a ceramic body and then coated with a mineral fire retardant. I don't know that there are any material safety concerns with the resistor but there could be due to potential metal toxicity of Nichrome along with the unknowns of the fire retardant material, I imagine the ceramic itself is probably inert. I doubt that as long as it's intact and not abused the resistor is much of a concern. I do think a screen in the core is good if for no other reason than to help stop any large particulate from escaping the core should the resistor suffer any damage.

 

[sunsett70]

You're kidding, right?? I read the post, and it seemed to me that all she wanted were answers to her questions.

Vicki, i can only talk material on this thread (no worries about a person's damaged reputation, deserved or undeserved). and i'm not kidding, like i said subtle. if you want to discuss for fun, kindly open another thread. maybe we can talk about conspiracy too. as long as i don't get in trouble cause i dont wanna get banned anymore.

 

[momofthegoons]

sunsett70, if you feel you have something to say about or to me, pm me and get it over with. I'd be happy to set you straight.

Dave I appreciate your responses to the thread so far. Hopefully, this can continue to be a productive discussion.

 

[stickstones]

Thanks for the response, Dave. I need to learn more about the resistor, I guess.

 

[fidget]

Got to love the conspiracy theories floating around. Mom's post gave all the info I needed to start exactly where a person with more Hazmat experience than probably most of you combined. 16 years to be exact. From the military, to Dish Network to the Petroleum industry. "Smells" and adhesives catch my attention. I only confirmed, with someone I respect that my thoughts were on target. That is the conversation NONE of you are privvy to. I also called GG, however, unlike mom... I did not speak to R&D. I called saying I had some questions about the MSDS sheet and practical applications.

You have your answers. MSDS and GG. I also have my reservations about the silicone, but haven't had enough time to read thru the whole thing.

If you guys need a boogeyman so bad. I'll be it. I know who my friends are one this board and those that know me, know I'm genuine. I speak my mind, try to pull punches, but aren't always successful. I don't have enough years left to live, to really let any more of this spark my BP.

Do what you want with the info. My contact with mom, has been her apologizing for me getting caught up in this, it wasn't my fight and asking me to be civil.

This post comes of really aggressive/defensive.
Probably best if ithe thread is locked until people have had a chance to cool down a little.
It's a great community here and this really isn't the way to resolve things.

 

[u bwade wunner]

Does motg get special treatment because she is a mod? I just don't think it was right, they way motg tried to devalue someone's character in the first post

I did nt pick up any of that from her post.It wasn t a personal attack.I got it exactly as i saw it.Mom is distubed by what she found inside her vape thats it.Im glad she did it.She should know.Shes been buying them before most of us on here.I think that is worth its salt.

A picture is worth a thousand words.I am shocked that medical users here would even consider owning a unit that contains industrial glues,silicones and adhesives.Inert or not.my point and I think Moms is keep our logs free of chemicals,glue,resins etc and all will be well.Wood ,Glass,Stainless Steel,Ceramic Element..job Done.

I know what i m looking at. there are good log units being made right now without any glue or chemicals, they are bolted or sleeved together.Maybe a little bit more work but worth it. if youre sick,you should nt need to worry about whats inside youre unit.Is it safe?.

If materials including glues and silicones are melting or charred like in those pictures then fumes are being released into the air around the user.not good at all.We have an obligation to point these issues out to all users.Mom was brave.Most would nt have the nerve to because they d ont want to disrespect a manufacturer.

The unit I use in my signature has been on 24/7 for months now and I have dismantled the whole unit piece by piece after 2 months operation.it was effectively a beta unit.The Makers first question via email was his concerns of charring wood or burning signs inside the unit.No charring or burning was evident and none to this day.that is down to design and construction.

Final point there is the potential for poorly designed units that are released through backstreet workshops onto the market to catch fire,these units produce a lot of heat and could quite easily burn youre house down and a lot worse.all eyes are on the dollar and potential earnings.please be careful.

If the vtal information was available in an easy to find location like the opening post of the manufacturers thread It would have made things so much easier for me.the thing I hear repeated over and over here is what vape should I buy? ,Is it safe? does it offgas? is there plastic/silicone in the airpath?.The good news is all of the info is here,the hard part is trudging through threads to find it.some patients d ont have that luxury sad to say.

An idea I had maybe would be a FC stamp of approval for logs that meet the correct criteria for medical use. i.e No glues melting plastics etc

 

[sunsett70]

sunsett70, if you feel you have something to say about or to me, pm me and get it over with. I'd be happy to set you straight.

PM you huh? PMing you would be like being in the same room as you, it'll probably make me nauseous so i'll take a rain check on your offer. we both know where you stand and why should i try to change a leopard's spots?

p/s - good points you brought up though, good discussion points.

modnote: that was going to be another, but your P/S made up for it. feel free to edit this post as well.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

This has to stop... it has been 7 replies since there has been useful information that was actually about the subject at hand. Since then it has been back and forth that has more to do with people then the actual issue at hand. I really don't like it.

I want to try and bring it back on to point. Again I think it is up to the end user to figure out what is an acceptable level of safety. If health if a major concern, then I think it is your duty to seek out information about the products you are interested in buying. I mentioned it earlier, I read every reply in the Underdog thread before I purchased. I knew what had been said before by Alan. I made an assessment based on my needs and concerns. I feel like it has been sufficiently covered, and I personally felt that the product was safe enough for me to use.

I have done this with ever vaporizer I have ever purchased. I think you should do this before you buy anything. I still remember coming here in (I was not a member then, just a lurker) 2009 to read about the ioLite and the MFLB before I bought them... I think the threads were maybe 500 pages shorter though.

 

[momofthegoons]

I agree Slightly Medicated and have deleted my post that was an angry response. I apologize for perpetuating the nonsense.

It truly is up to the individual to decide what is acceptable for them in a vape. My intent has always been to make sure that they had the information to make that choice. As a noob a few years back, I came to this forum looking for advice on which vaporizer to buy. I relied on the information I was given as accurate and based my decisions on that information. I still rely on information here when making purchase decisions and I know I'm not alone in this.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

I agree Slightly Medicated and have deleted my post that was an angry response. I apologize for perpetuating the nonsense.

It truly is up to the individual to decide what is acceptable for them in a vape. My intent has always been to make sure that they had the information to make that choice. As a noob a few years back, I came to this forum looking for advice on which vaporizer to buy. I relied on the information I was given as accurate and based my decisions on that information. I still rely on information here when making purchase decisions and I know I'm not alone in this.

Exactly. We all rely on information from others to make our decisions. That is part of the reason I feel so passionate about my blog. I feel like it is my duty to share my experiences with others. Safety is a very personal topic though. Personally, I am not trained to make assessments on material safety. I can only go with my intuition on what feels like an acceptable level of safety for me. If you were to hand me an homemade tin-foil pipe and a lighter, I might question the safety of smoking through Reynolds Wrap. I think some safety assessments are clear enough to make.

What I consider acceptable might be crazy to others, it might also be considered to stringent by others. I am sure I have mentioned this in another thread but I am always reminded of the Jewish Philisopher who said there are 10 sides to every argument/discussion.

In terms of reading stuff some people might feel like they should not be forced to read though 600+ pages of information. Personally, I feel like it is your duty to do that if you want to make an informed decision. I know I owe it to myself to do the research. It might take time to work your way through threads but it is worth it in the long run.

Currently, I am picking up lots of different vaporizers to review/test... I am still going through the threads to read others experience and try and learn from what has been contributed before me so that I can try and learn from others and also evolve the discussion.

 

[sunsett70]

It truly is up to the individual to decide what is acceptable for them in a vape.

REALLY? MATERIALS ONLY BEYOND THIS POINT

Mod, i am only responding to your mod member's comments. not intended to cause argument/piss party but perhaps a different viewpoint. for moral purpose, pls allow me to express this

what if sometimes it's decided for the individual by what others say or do beforehand? like when a manufacturer is accused of being uncooperative (fucker must have something to hide, when he was previously open), then add in accusations like "mocking/belittling bullshiter" and shades of "someone told me that his product has safety issues" & some obscure issue about dave "not changing the design accordingly". before any issues are settled, dave already becomes this right o' difficult bastard, irrespective of the safety issues. and it becomes like character assasination, because to whoever's new to reading the thread, this dave just becomes a whole lot less trustworthy.

then you wouldn't even worry about engineering issues. if i don't trust the manufacturer, his product could be technically perfect and i wouldn't buy it. fuck dave, he won't even respond to customer's querry, right? So Mod, do you think is a valid point, or crap?

modnote: thank you. i saw it before you edited it. i really don't want to run up the points and get you banned...not the point here. but if you can't talk materials, don't post here.

thanks for your leeway, i dun wanna get banned either. and i copied and paste here cause SS said only material beyond that point.

modnote: that's a real shame.

 

[stickstones]

MATERIALS ONLY FROM THIS POINT ON

 

[sunsett70]

sorry, deleted cause error post, never slept for the whole night. this thread is so wow, kick ass.

 

[vtac]

Log vapes are great for many reasons. They can become prized possessions and they're the type of product that people get passionate about, so it's no secret that this is a sensitive issue and I understand the natural tendency to go on the defensive when it feels like something you care about is under attack. I don't believe that is the case here, though.

Too often we see "Us vs Them" mentalities towards popular products of a similar nature. This is understandable but it's also unfortunate as it creates a closed dialogue and hostility between people who share common interests. This was very much the case back when there were essentially only 2 log vapes to choose from, and it created a rift in a community that had been very much united. The few members who actually owned vapes from both sides became unwilling to post their honest opinion on the topics because of all the rampant blind hate.

When a material safety discussion arose relating to one of the vapes it got ugly very quickly with both sides accusing and much talk of conspiracies against one another. Looking back now it's not hard to see how utterly ridiculous and counterproductive the whole X vs Y bullshit was, but the discussion on material safety did eventually prompt one manufacturer to revise his design, ultimately producing a much improved vape. Now it was better than the competition. I'm sure there were many small victory celebrations but the real winner was the consumer; you and me.

If the discussion had been disallowed from the start we could very well be several generations behind in "log vape" (always disliked that terminology, sorry) technology and your favorite Eterra descendant might not even exist. Competition is good for the consumer, and the open discussion of vaporizers including their construction will not be stifled by devotees of any product on this forum. One of the chief reasons this site was created was to cut through the rampant bias in the vaporizer marketplace.

With all of that being said, yes these discussions can be very touchy, and care must be taken to keep them productive and honest. As of right now we are not exactly well equipped to handle such discussions but we do have rules and they will be enforced. Those who attempt to use controversial topics to further their own agendas will likely find themselves with infractions as well.

#

Getting back on topic, personally I would find it helpful to see a diagram of construction and airflow.

 

[foggy mornings]

if i had a company, i dont know if i would post the diagram of construction unless i had a patent

 

[Hippie Dickie]

patents offer no protection nor guarantee of exclusive manufacturing rights in today's world. for medical devices, the patient should have the right to know. Perhaps if doctors were as honest about what they know and don't know, medical "science" could actually evolve.

just my opinion, of course.

 

[stickstones]

also, Tom kind of blew the lid off the log vape secrets a while ago with the Pandora. because of that we have all these innovations that are both great and questionable.

 

[u bwade wunner]

the patient should have the right to know

the nail has been hit firmly on the head

 

[foggy mornings]

what is known so far in this thread, that dave makes a design with some silicone near the heating core which he says is safe, and a couple people say they dont think its safe, also there is some ceramic that may flake that is next to the the wood but not near where you inhale and some guerilla glue that is down by the plug that doesnt get inhaled. i feel that mine is safe but i dont Know for sure, life is full of uncertainties. if i start to smell or taste something odd i will immediately cease use but until that time i will continue to use my ud and feel that it was a good buy.

 

[underdog]

@ vtac - well put, couldn't agree more and I don't mind posting a diagram of the UD air path.

It might be a sketch and I don't have it on me right now but I'll come back and add it later. There are hundreds of UDs out there in service and more than one has been disassembled so no designs secrets to protect or anything like that.

As promised here is a diagram of the UD core and its air path.

The air comes in down past the teeth in the area between the walls and the center tube until it gets to the bottom of the core then makes a u-turn and heads back up past the resistor and out the center tube into the stem.

The core is closed and the air isn't allowed a path other than as described. The air path is the stainless steel core, the resistor, the top half of the glass bead and in the .03" gap where the one wire runs beside the bead a tiny bit of silicone.

Now that I've posted a diagram maybe others will also be as transparent and do the same.

Since this is a thread on material safety (and seems to be morphing into one of design as well) and not limited to the UD I think it'd be great to see other manufactures do the same and contribute details of their products to the thread.

::edited for typos again::

 

[Hippie Dickie]

Sure ... here is the internal configuration i've used since i started my own vaporizer odyssey when i used resistance wire and fixed voltage supply, so the original Bud Toaster was more or less a log vape:

The blue outlines show the borosilicate glass. The vial (inner most) and the inhale tube (top) both have 0.75mm holes drilled in their closed bottom to allow airflow. In use, the inhale tube rests on top of the vial and provides an adequate seal to draw air past the heater (through the gap between the oven and the vial) and into the bottom of the vial. The top of the oven tube is just proud (1/32") with the top of the wood.

All glass, and only glass, air path. Isolated from electronics and wood. Details in my thread about changes to the heater, to make it computer controlled. Software available for download on my SkyDrive folder.

 

[darkrom]

I hope this transparency thing catches on...the majority of vapes are not NEARLY this open, and very few are receptive to design suggestions/changes AT ALL.

I've been conflicted lately, but what I am sure of is that Dave will continue to improve his vape if at all possible. He is more than willing to do custom work, and if he can find a better way to handle the design he does. That is one of the key advantages to working with an individual rather than a company that has a warehouse of 20,000 of these things.

Thanks for handling this so well Dave and being open. I'm sure there is a way to make a design to please everyone...or everyone reasonable anyway.

 

[HighlyEducatedScholar]

i've got to admit Hippie Dickie. thats really really cool i've always been interested about the inner design of your Bud Toaster since i hear little things about it here and there throughout this forum. if i were better with my hands and not tech-dumb, i'd consider making one of those.