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Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety

This thread does indeed bring up some worrying issues. I don't think Dave is knowingly passing along a dangerous vape, but the mob has spoken and it says that GG and flaking silicone are not okay. I don't think any of us want that kind of stuff in our vapes. I imagine there is a long list of more sound materials which could get the job done just as well. Maybe the UD should continue its enviable evolution and success by cutting these kind of materials out of the design.

But yeah, I'd love a photo tear-down of every vaporizer made, and to see those photos in the vaporpedia entry.
 

stickstones

Vapor concierge
good post, vorrange.

This thread is about materials and their safety. We are not going any further down the road of attacks or motivations.

I have only had PDs and one HI. After getting my HI, I love that I can take it apart and put it back together and see everything in it. I don't think it has one bit of glue or silicone in it and I don't see the reason to use them. If one has doubts about the safety of the materials used, there are other options that don't use them.
 

vtac

vapor junkie
Staff member
Thank you to everyone who had remained civil in this controversial topic. We are all adults here and flaming will not be tolerated.

As for the attempted derail (removed) of this thread with an attack on the staff and suggestion of an underground fc boycott, please continue your boycott. That would mean not visiting the forum.
 

darkrom

Great Scott!
maybe its just me...but there's a sense of fishy-ness increasing with almost every other post.

Life in general seems to get more fishy by the minute. I just hope for some news about what is going to happen with what has been my favorite and several times a day used vape!
 
darkrom,

Gandalf

Well-Known Member
There is definitely an aspect of this thread that seems fishy to me as well. To be honest, I don't really care about the politics of it all. I just want to know that what I'm using is safe.

It's unfortunate because I'm not sure how this is going to be resolved now. There's Gorilla Glue in my UD, that's a fact that I'm not completely comfortable with yet. I don't know enough about this stuff to make my own determination whether or not it's safe, so I'll continue watching this thread to see more knowledgeable members chime in.

I'm also concerned about what BigDaddyVapor mentioned, what he knows about the UD - regarding safety - that Dave "certainly doesn't want him talking about". When darkrom questioned him about this, he said it was about the Gorilla Glue. But that was mentioned in the very first post already.

So unless Big Daddy Vapor was actually threatening Dave with talking about Gorilla Glue (which had already been mentioned), then logically there's now some mysterious OTHER danger in addition to what's already been mentioned. Definitely adds to the fishy aspect of the thread.

Again, I don't care about the politics and I'm certainly not taking sides, but I do care about using a vape that is safe. I'm no angel and I admittedly take risks with my health now and then, but regularly inhaling something dangerous is not OK.
 

darkrom

Great Scott!
There is definitely an aspect of this thread that seems fishy to me as well. To be honest, I don't really care about the politics of it all. I just want to know that what I'm using is safe.

It's unfortunate because I'm not sure how this is going to be resolved now. There's Gorilla Glue in my UD, that's a fact that I'm not completely comfortable with yet. I don't know enough about this stuff to make my own determination whether or not it's safe, so I'll continue watching this thread to see more knowledgeable members chime in.

I'm also concerned about what BigDaddyVapor mentioned, what he knows about the UD - regarding safety - that Dave "certainly doesn't want him talking about". When darkrom questioned him about this, he said it was about the Gorilla Glue. But that was mentioned in the very first post already.

So unless Big Daddy Vapor was actually threatening Dave with talking about Gorilla Glue (which had already been mentioned), then logically there's now some mysterious OTHER danger in addition to what's already been mentioned. Definitely adds to the fishy aspect of the thread.

Again, I don't care about the politics and I'm certainly not taking sides, but I do care about using a vape that is safe. I'm no angel and I admittedly take risks with my health now and then, but regularly inhaling something dangerous is not OK.

You summed up everything right now. the BDV post has me extra concerned, as it was intended to. I have a shitty feeling all around. Politics be damned, I vape to get away from the stress of some of that shit not find more. I just want a resolution that works for everyone.
 

fidget

Well-Known Member
It's the "someone told me someone did something terrible but I'm too honourable to betray their trust so i'll just tell everyone that i know someone did something terrible because someone told me but i'm too honourable to betray their trust and let wild speculation ensue" that I'm not a fan of.
 

sunsett70

Member
this is possibly THE most interesting thread i've came across lately. been going thru & fro the pages, and so many angles to analyse & dissect. anyone game to play Sherlock Holmes or Quincy MD? its a weekend, right? :lol:

p/s - just thinking about the airconditioned air that i breathe in the office/car. i take for granted that it's safe :\ how safe is it anyway?
 

sunsett70

Member
It's the "someone told me someone did something terrible but I'm too honourable to betray their trust so i'll just tell everyone that i know someone did something terrible because someone told me but i'm too honourable to betray their trust and let wild speculation ensue" that I'm not a fan of.
quote from fidget

it's the jews, i tell ya....they control the world ;)
 
sunsett70,

underdog

shade-tree vapor engineer
Manufacturer
As always I am more than happy to make a vape to any customers preferred specs if they ask, this of course could include not using any adhesives or materials that the customer doesn't want used.

With core / air path design I think one has to first decide whether or not the core should be closed or open.

If it's open you'll have exposure to the heated wood, potential charring, the solder and flux and the metal/plastic power plug assembly.

If it's closed you can eliminate exposure to those materials but at the expense of potential exposure to whatever material is being used to close the core.

In my design I decided I'd rather attempt to seal the core and deal with the potential exposure to the silicone from that little wire gap past the bead. To me that was the lesser of the evils and so that's the design I chose to go with. Of course other people might make a different decision and luckily I can accommodate that choice if requested.

So that's that. This is a design choice I made and I still think it's the better of the options but don't try to force that viewpoint on others. People who disagree are free to buy a different vape or to contact me and have an UD made to their exacting standards as has always been the option. I don't believe there is anything wrong with this approach and as such won't spend any time arguing the merits of one over the other. UD has always been about high quality, handmade, custom vapes that allow the customer to get exactly what they want and will continue to be so.

@ BigDaddyVapor - of course I'm denying any wrong doing because there hasn't been any. Disagreement? Yes. Controversy? Yes. Wrong doing? No. As far as your threats go I'm not even going to worry about that, I've got no hidden dark history or anything else for you to use as legitimate ammo so do or say what you will, it doesn't matter to me.

@ SlightlyMedicated - your temp readings are pretty much spot on and I have no concerns whatsoever about the use of GG in that location and at those temps. If GG was still being used around the core like in the 1st generation non-24/7 UDs I could understand the concern but not in this application. :2c:

@ u bwade runner - thanks for taking the time write a detailed response. I didn't post the comment regarding RoHS as an attack on you just to be clear but just to set the record straight on which materials were actually covered by it. While I know that my claims will be contested here I can honestly tell you that my decisions and designs are not ruled by profit or corner cutting. I strive to make what I feel to be a high-end, safe product and feel that I do so though again I know those points will be argued. I would like to reiterate though that when it comes to our beloved Log vapes you either choose to have the core close or not and the pros and cons that both concepts entail as posted above. I can understand a person choosing not to use a vape with the core sealed and that uses adhesives including GG and silicone but just want to point out again that going that route simply exposes you to a different set of materials with their own concerns.

@ weedmon - log vapes run well within the temperature range of high-temp silicone and there shouldn't be any breakdown of the silicone. I have pieces that were made several years ago and used extensively and the silicone is still in like-new condition. Also to clarify, someone mentioned "flaking silicone" which is inaccurate, the silicone hasn't and doesn't flake, the ceramic insulation is what flakes with manipulated. Just wanted to clear that up.

@ MoTG - I see my original post was edited, presumably by management.. can you tell me if anything besides your name was removed? Guess it doesn't matter either way, your guys house your rules but I am curious. I want to address the following comment:
As I posted above, I was assured when I read your post here that you had addressed the things that had been found in your vape that were of a concern and had changed your design accordingly.
I don't know where you would get any indication that silicone is no longer used on the vapes considering that it pretty clearly states a couple times that it is still being used on the bottom of the cores. I will take your word regarding the GG never being FDA approved, I've certainly never called them up for a chat so again I'll take your word. I can say that the area the GG is used isn't subjected to heat anywhere near what is required for the glue to break down, not even close so to talk about melting as if it's something that happens is rather pointless. Lastly of course none of these materials have been approved or tested for use in vaporizers, gotta keep in mind that as far as society is concerned the users of vapes are all a bunch of criminal degenerates. I personally don't look forward to the day when the government decides to regulate vapes as 'medical devices', forces small businesses to close shop and the big companies to raise prices to those of other 'medical devices'. Nothing like a market full of $3000 'medical' vapes to ruin everyone's party.

@ CDS - you're spot on regarding the mob having spoken, if users request vapes without the materials in question then that is, of course, what will be built. The consumer speak with their wallets as the saying goes. To clarify, as I already did above, the silicone wasn't flaking.. the flaking was the ceramic cloth.

@ Gandalf - your UD is a newer model Twig and very possibly doesn't have any GG on the power plug but I can't say for sure. If it's something that continues to concern you (and this applies to everyone else as well) I would be happy to disassemble and remove any GG for you if you want to send it in. I am confident that the GG is fine as used, is separated from the air path and doesn't get exposed to anything even remotely approaching bad heat levels. I do understand that you and other users will need to make your own decisions on the subject though so please just let me know if you'd like to send it in. As always I stand by the product and the customer.

@ darkrom - the above offer to Gandalf also of course applies to you, if you're concerned about your Pups just get in touch and we'll talk and clean them up for you if you feel it necessary.

I'll be heading back to the UD thread now that I've said what I came here to say. If anyone want to discuss things further please feel free to join me over there, message me, email, etc. :peace:
 

sunsett70

Member
@bdv excuse me sir, but i wrote a pretty damn long reply but deleted it cause i forgot what i started writing about at the beginning. goddamn, that UD sure hits hard! :tup: i myself am not into games. and i hope you will reappear in this thread cause you bring up some interesting points that i think you can clarify.
as for motg, good points she brought up about the UD. as for "There was nothing political in my agenda", i wonder what she has in her agenda then? :\

i smell conspiracy theories abound :worms:
 
sunsett70,

zmurder

Well-Known Member
as for motg, good points she brought up about the UD. as for "There was nothing political in my agenda", i wonder what agenda she has then? :\

Seems like her agenda is pretty clear: to make sure the materials used in log vapes that she and those she knows uses are safe. I too am surprised and not impressed by the internals of the 'dog -- but I don't have to worry about this cuz I don't and won't have one. We are very lucky to have a decent sized marketplace of log vapes now so can be pretty choosy!
 

momofthegoons

vapor accessory addict
I see my original post was edited, presumably by management.. can you tell me if anything besides your name was removed?

No Dave. I only removed my name. And since you brought it up, WTF? You felt the entire forum needed to know it?

If GG was still being used around the core like in the 1st generation non-24/7 UDs I could understand the concern but not in this application.

This is actually something that never came out on the UD thread back when you revised the core. And, it is the concern I was referring to when I said, "I was assured when I read your post here that you had addressed the things that had been found in your vape that were of a concern and had changed your design accordingly." And, it brings up the question of what happened to all the original UD's that were sold that were made with Gorilla glue holding in the heatport? Are there any that are still in circulation?
My concerns about the silicone did not happen until I took the UD apart and saw how hot that area gets.

Dave, this has nothing to do with you, what a nice guy you are or your customer service. From what I can see, you're a hell of a nice guy and your customer service is top notch. This is about people (many of them medical patients) being able to make informed decisions the best they can. And also about concerns regarding materials that may not be the best for the job intended. Have you researched using other glues that are food safe for the plug application? Or silicone (or a similar substance) that does not have warnings regarding inhalation? And since your insulation is scorching and flaking, how about using one that doesn't? You've shown in the past that you are willing to make changes to better your vape. Would these changes not do that?
 

stickstones

Vapor concierge
darkrom...I don't think bdv's statement of having information that he won't or can't share is goint to matter in the end. We already have in this thread an entire UD torn apart, so you can see everything in it. bdv couldn't have anything more than what is already revealed, unless it has to do with older units still out there.

And to remind everyone, this thread is not about conspiracy theories or motivations or hearsay. We have all the facts we need right here already and all we need to do is discuss them. If bdv wants to be forthcoming, he can do it in his own materials thread, but not this one.

In the end, all we need to do is get conclusive details on the current materials used. Then it is up to Dave to decide if he wants to continue using them and up to the public to decide if they want to buy them. Dave has already said he will modify UD's for special orders if asked, so some sort of quasi-resolution has already been reached for any new, concerned potential customer.
 

sunsett70

Member
Seems like her agenda is pretty clear: to make sure the materials used in log vapes that she and those she knows uses are safe.
i see certain points she brings up, i'll bring it up with dave when i'm in my technical mood.

but it's the whole feel of the first post, check the combination of her words. soft, subtle but thorny, easily changing contrasting tones. and yes, the fish smell....."the person(s) that shared some very disturbing info with me" why, bdv, of all people got to share in the news to safe his health/safety, and ask not to say anything? the ud may or may not be a crap vape but i know one thing, she's a sly one alright.

mod note: this is not what we are going to talk about here. materials only, please.
 
sunsett70,

underdog

shade-tree vapor engineer
Manufacturer
@ MoTG - no slight or hostility intended by using your name Mom. It just seemed appropriate given the seriousness of the subject. If it upset you I apologize.

Thanks for the clarification on the GG concerns and how they related to the linked post. Very few pieces were ever made with any GG on or around the core and the majority of those have long since been retrofitted or replaced.

As far as using an adhesive other than GG for the power plugs I have tried a few different types in testing but the GG is hands down the best for the application. That being said I am by no means against using a better adhesive, I just haven't found one yet. The insulation is a similar situation, after trying different types the ceramic cloth has been the clear winner, again though if a better material presents itself we might well switch. As far as the flaking goes, and we might be in disagreement here, it is a non-issue in my opinion. The current core uses it in a slightly different way, it's stamped to shape instead of cut, only flakes when poked and prodded and is of course not exposed to the air path. Once again though, everything being said and done I am always looking to improve the UD design so none of this stuff is set in stone and these materials are simply the best I've found to date for this application but will continue looking to improve.
 

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
Got to love the conspiracy theories floating around. Mom's post gave all the info I needed to start exactly where a person with more Hazmat experience than probably most of you combined. 16 years to be exact. From the military, to Dish Network to the Petroleum industry. "Smells" and adhesives catch my attention. I only confirmed, with someone I respect that my thoughts were on target. That is the conversation NONE of you are privvy to. I also called GG, however, unlike mom... I did not speak to R&D. I called saying I had some questions about the MSDS sheet and practical applications.

You have your answers. MSDS and GG. I also have my reservations about the silicone, but haven't had enough time to read thru the whole thing.

If you guys need a boogeyman so bad. I'll be it. I know who my friends are one this board and those that know me, know I'm genuine. I speak my mind, try to pull punches, but aren't always successful. I don't have enough years left to live, to really let any more of this spark my BP.

Do what you want with the info. My contact with mom, has been her apologizing for me getting caught up in this, it wasn't my fight and asking me to be civil.
 

sunsett70

Member
Does motg get special treatment because she is a mod? I just don't think it was right, they way motg tried to devalue someone's character in the first post, and and then act all nice. she's a mod, she should be unbiased and not change her tone on a subject.

@ bdv
(mod) i can only talk about the material here but just want to clarify my earlier post that i dont like play games either. don't need to know a person to understand how english is used in this particular instance ie "he is a salesman" aka bullshitter. when the facts are not yet established, i think is not very nice.

modnote: I'm starting here. Going through the thread and all violations after this post will get a warning.
 

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
It's the "someone told me someone did something terrible but I'm too honourable to betray their trust so i'll just tell everyone that i know someone did something terrible because someone told me but i'm too honourable to betray their trust and let wild speculation ensue" that I'm not a fan of.

Wild speculation belongs to you, pal. Same with assumptions.
 
BigDaddyVapor,

zmurder

Well-Known Member
Does motg get special treatment because she is a mod? I just don't think it was right, they way motg tried to devalue someone's character in the first post, and and then act all nice. she's a mod, she should be unbiased and not change her tone on a subject.

There was absolutely nothing in the first post that "tried to devalue someone's character". You're making that up. And this is coming from someone who has disagreed with the mods on a number of occasions! As stickstones said, all you need to talk about here is materials and their safety -- enough with the conspiracy theories.
 

sunsett70

Member
There was absolutely nothing in the first post that "tried to devalue someone's character". You're making that up. And this is coming from someone who has disagreed with the mods on a number of occasions! As stickstones said, all you need to talk about here is materials and their safety -- enough with the conspiracy theories.
if the Mods allow i will show you where in the first post, she designed a 'hit'. sly but subtle. maybe i should report it because it is an underhanded passive aggresive technique ie not nice so it's against the rules.

mod note: that's one
 
sunsett70,
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