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18650 Battery Safety

Discussion in 'Vapor Related Equipment' started by TheDudeNextDoor, Jun 13, 2015.

  1. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    Not that i want to be anywhere near exploding 18650 but I am having more trust issues with butane ,torches and lighters(which explode far more often),than those batteries,which i think have the same chemistry as laptops and cellphone which people put right to their faces. I've had once a crappy torch bursted in flames right in my hand,while i was considering using it with a lotus just next to my face... After inspection i saw that the tubing that leads the gas from tank to the burning head had unplugged during operation at once or with time ,that i could not tell.. Also inhaling butane is not a nice thing,i doubt that many stoners go otside while they fill their torches.. Also you can add to that the flame it self is dangerous enough and if you are stupid enough,careless and stoned you can burn yourself or something around you and cause fire way more easier than a battery :).
    Moral of the story is ,dont go cheap with items which safety of operation is paramount.
     
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  2. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    Modnote: This is an informative cross-post from the Nomad thread
    No, I'm saying these battery chemistries (variants of Lithium-Ion) are unsafe by nature. You should always be careful during handling, use, storage and charge.

    That's the price to pay if we want power and it's the best available today. Next technology might be better, it's supposedly around the corner... but it's been quite some years already and we're still waiting, not unlike nuclear fusion...

    Note that it will likely be a revolution and the stakes are very high (notably electric cars becoming mainstream, so there's a lot of money at play, both to be made and to be lost, by oil companies and producing countries, but let's not get political here!)

    Mass-produced vapes using 18650's should be fine. Their contacts are precision machined by robots and are very smooth. They also have to get through the whole certification process to be able to enter the US and EU markets. So for instance your Tubo being based on the joyetech evic VTC mini, or other Chinese-made vapes like the X-Max etc should be ok (note that I always insert the positive side first in my evic and other mods such that it's the negative side that grinds on the contact though)

    It also greatly depends on how the contact is designed. If it's a door or something you screw it's less problematic than something that slides and grinds.

    For your other vapes: I always have the negative terminal facing up in my Milaana. Again grinding on the negative terminal is completely safe, it's a solid flat piece of stainless steel, it's the other side that is delicate. In the MVT the door slightly grinds on the positive, so I took the habit of pushing the cell down with the tip of one finger while sliding the door. The pressure is small and the contact is round but better be safe than sorry (I told Dave to consider reversing the cell polarity, but as is you can't just insert it backwards as the MVT touch switch is polarity sensitive)

    Just watch your cell wraps closely and if they get damaged at the top (anywhere else is harmless) bring them to a vape shop to get them rewrapped (or order a wrap kit from the place you got your cells from, it's easy to do)


    Yes that's a possibility, but why not eliminate the risk altogether by inserting the cell the other way round?

    In its current form the cell can go both ways. My remark about the beefy ground is just the normal practice as everything converges to that part, but here the circuit is super trivial and only a single path flows through. I can't comment on your remark about having the switch high side or low side, maybe it makes a difference in practice, I don't know. With MOSFETs it makes a clear difference but in a mechanical-mod configuration like this I'm unsure.


    It's simple, look at this picture:

    [​IMG]


    The entire cell shell (the can) is negative, meaning the bottom, the sides and up to that shiny rounded lip (the upper-most that is, including the "rings" below) Then the brown part is insulation and the raised center post is the positive terminal.

    When the cell is wrapped it also has an (usually white but can be black) extra insulation ring above the brown part. This ring can get dislodged when the wrap is damaged, as it's just floating and held "sandwiched" by the wrap.

    All you have to do to short the cell is connect the lip to the center post, and they are a few mm apart in a straight line. A key could be enough, like in your pocket as you said (hence the need to always carry them in the provided plastic case. If you don't have those, no excuse they are worth cents only on aliexpress!)

    Indeed when you short the cell it heats first and does not necessarily enter the thermal runaway mode. When it gets past 120°C or something it will start venting. Normally only hot gas and nasty boiling chemicals (awful smell) and in the worst case it can even catch fire (less likely with IMR/INR than the so called "Li-Po" soft pouch ones as found in cell phones and remote control stuff)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2017
  3. little maggie

    little maggie Well-Known Member

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    Sorry if this is a repeat but what is the safest way to dispose of a battery and how do I know when to dispose of one? They slow down and don't keep charges well as they age but I don't know whether that is grounds for disposal or whether their safety is impacted as their charge decreases.
     
  4. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    You can in theory use them until they don't hold much charge anymore (ex: you remove them from the charger, use them, and 5 minutes after they are already discharged)

    BUT with aging, usually the internal resistance rises too, which in turn will make the cell heat under load. If you notice that your cell gets really hot after use (not just the usual warm due to the heater proximity) then it might be a sign you should dispose it (or reserve it for another less demanding application, like a small light torch for instance, if you happen to have a modern one that takes Li-Ions, or a power bank etc.)

    For disposal, follow your local recycling recommendations. It's best to discharge them first, but not mandatory. Put some electrical tape (or that brown tape) around the positive terminal to prevent any short when you put it in the container. Where I live, I got containers where I can put used light bulbs and batteries, usually near the entrance of shops that sell them (even if they don't sell Li-Ions per se, if they sell other batteries and/or fluorescent bulbs etc. they got that container)

    You might find people recommending the salt water bucket technique online, but it takes ages and it stinks... So I would say: let the recycler do the dirty job, they got the right equipment and procedures.

    In all cases they should not go with your regular garbage into landfills.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  5. Pavelhonner

    Pavelhonner Member

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  6. Abysmal Vapor

    Abysmal Vapor Shaman of The Pyramid of Orlin'Malah

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    I dont know bout these but i buy my batteries from https://www.dcpower.eu/ cause they are local,but also they ship within EU and have nice prices. IME it is best that you look for a local store,because if something happens you can actually go there and complain if you got a bad product, opposed to whining on forums and exchanging e-mails with their support :).
    If you already have bought these i think that removing the foil can tell you if you got a rewrap or the real deal,but that works only if you got spare shrinkwrap,cause using naked batteries is not a good idea . Also checking if the specs correspond to the advertised with some measuring device .
     
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  7. Pavelhonner

    Pavelhonner Member

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    Have excellent experience with Amazon at these things too - e.g. no problems with refunding for badly tagged items (charging adapter and sweatshirt so far). Once they even did not want me to send the item back.
     
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  8. tashalachut

    tashalachut New Member

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    Just my opinion, but no battery is "safe" unless you are using it properly. I vape, and follow all safety protocols with how to handle batteries. You just need to use your brain and not try and modify vapes to take AA batteries (yes this happened to someone) or leave batteries out of cases when outside.
     
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  9. Pavelhonner

    Pavelhonner Member

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  10. tashalachut

    tashalachut New Member

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  11. ClearBlueLou

    ClearBlueLou unbearably light in the being....

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    WRONG THREAD!!!
    so sorry...
     
  12. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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  13. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    so, TLDR: it's the chemistry.

    i don't think LiFePO4 does this dendrites thing ... or maybe it takes the nano-tech electrodes of A123Systems to be safer.

    what do you think @KeroZen?
     
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  14. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    Could be, but many Li-Ion pouch (Li-Po) makers also claim they are using nano-stuff, including graphene etc, yet they still make nice fireworks. I think it's more the chemistry and LiFePO4 is inherently safer.
     
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  15. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    Robert Murray-Smith's thoughts about Cobalt used in some of our battery chemistries:

    Click to play YouTube Video


    If you don't know the man, and in short: his company is developing graphene and other carbon inks based batteries in some form of "open source" way. Lots of interesting stuff on his channel and he has often wise things to say.

    And for a quick read about Li-Ion chemistries, you can check this link >> https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-.../18880255-battery-chemistry-finally-explained
     
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  16. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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  17. skybbc

    skybbc Member

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    Sony VTC5/6/LG HG2/SAMSUNG 25R recommend
     
  18. INDIVA

    INDIVA New Member

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    Thee best 18650 battery on the market hands down its designed for vaping is the hohm tech work batteries they are 36.3a and 3077mah you wont be disappointed its thee only 18650 battery ill use as it kills everything else on the market right now..check em out about $8-10ea imrbatteries.com has them..
     
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  19. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the tip, they are, of course, out of stock.....

    However, they aren't really that much better where we need them:
    "Discharge: 21.5A Max Continuous, Rated 40.6A Max Pulse by HohmTech"

    21.5 is a bit better than 20, but not enough to hang your hat on I'm thinking?

    And the "DO NOT USE WITH E-CIGARETTE, VAPORIZER, OR SIMILAR DEVICE" kinda gives a guy pause to ask why? Any ideas there? Only intended for pack use? Subject to 'spectacular' venting and not safe confined? Tough warning to overlook......

    I think it's safe to assume (yeah, I know....) Arizer did proper testing for worst case failures of the specified 18650 in ArGo. But I don't think it's safe to assume that for 'aftermarket brands'? Maybe.

    I'm still trying to figure the difference with https://www.imrbatteries.com/hohm-life-18650-3077mah-flat-top-battery/, which is in stock for a dollar more. Any insights there?

    Thanks again for the advice, and for any additional insights you might have. For now I can think a bit more while I wait out the notice they're back in stock.

    OF
     
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  20. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    @INDIVA: Since when HohmTech have a Li-Ion factory? Don't answer, they don't! Meaning they re-wrap cells from one of the only 4 manufacturers having factories: LG, Samsung, Sony or Panasonic/Sanyo.

    They also are not a big enough company to be able to afford having one of these factories produce a custom cell for them. So far, only Tesla (the car maker) was able to achieve that.

    At the moment there is no 3000+mAh AND 30+A CDR cell on the market. It's either 3000mAh and only 18-20A CDR or 30A but only 1500mAh, you can't have both at the same time.

    They boosted the 20A figure to 21.5A, that's already not a good sign, especially when you know that the LG HG2 and Sony VTC6 are rated 20A CDR when in reality they are closer to 18A CDR. The Samsung 30Q is closer to 20A CDR but to me it should be considered in the same 18A league (and Samsung advertise it only as 15A CDR which is quite conservative)

    The real 20A CDR cells are the LG HE4, Samsung 25R and Sony VTC5, but they are only 2500mAh. The 3 above have higher internal resistance and hence less than 20A CDR (so 18A sounds like the correct number and has been independently confirmed by several sources) Of course the exact figure will vary, as testers don't use the same value for the acceptable maximum operation temperature. But at 18A continuous these cells already get quite hot and they sag like a mushy potato.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  21. INDIVA

    INDIVA New Member

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    The hohm work batts were designed off of the lg hg2 but they have a diff chemical makeup that they changed..i have used the vtc4,5,6 hg2,he4,25r etc etc and the hohm work batts have been the best battery i have used longest lasting in time and in discharge cycles over others..heres from their website

    Designed for those that wish to feed insanely power-hungry devices without having to swap batteries every other minute. These are rated by Indonesia Chemistry at 3077mAh capacity, with a CDR of 20.7A and a pulse/peak rating of 36.3A. All ratings are subject to meet and/or exceed strict limitation policies set forth for DLr1, TID2, PVDL3, CLR4, mΩR5, and Temperature (°C). Hohm Life is based off the LG HG2 chemistry foundation, with manganese inert compound replaced with additional proprietary levels of cobalt & nickel as well as added custom bonding agents to achieve unprecedented capabilities. It is further enhanced with Showa Denko & Magna Steyr components to give it the heartbeat of Hohm Tech.

    Every Hohm Tech cell model has been tested and certified by the rightful authorities/laboratories and accredited entities to achieve certification of MSDS, CE, ROHS, UN38.3, Specifications, Air/Sea Transport, and PLI. We do not cut corners. We deliver what we promise… chart topping performance, capacity, consistency, and safety.
    To expound on safety:
    ‌• modified cathode tag consisting of higher purity aluminum is utilized to aid in lowering internal resistance
    ‌• updated poly seal with refined bitumen is installed in every cell to ensure excess pressure is controlled
    ‌• each cell is fitted with our proprietary EPTC (Enhanced Positive Thermal Coefficient) ring with higher multiplier of resistance
    ‌• every cell is equipped with 2-stage CID (Current Interrupt Device) system to aid in overcharge prevention

    * NOTICE: Hohm Tech does not manufacture batteries. These are licensed and made specific to the requirements set forth.

    ** CAN BE CHARGED AT 4.25A. This is not a misprint. 4.25A as in FOUR POINT TWO FIVE amp charging is possible, tested, proven, and approved within all strict safety protocols set by Indonesia Chemistry.
    *** TESTING BEYOND TEMPERATURE. Hohm Tech cells utilize both static & dynamic testing that includes but not limited to: density loss, thermal distribution, volt drop limiters, cycle life retention, and temperature. These tests are imperative to achieve true cell performance, longevity, and overall quality.
     
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  22. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    "Like a mushy potato"? I know I shouldn't be so amused at some of the fun things you say, but I can't help myself........

    You're absolutely right, of course, all sorts of trade offs are made in trying to get the best possible performance for a specific job. We can make fatter, shorter connections to lower resistance and get better peak (and continuous) current/power but that eats up space inside so total capacity suffers. Or we can make things thin and pack 'em in tighter and go for maximum capacity at the expense of other features. Sony split it into 3 or more VCT models around this theme?

    Great insight on 'only four makers out there....'. I wonder who makes all that overrated junk you can get on E-Bay. I recall reading an article a while back on guys that would cut apart old laptop batteries then repackage any 18650s that showed any life. Using packaging to look like premium cells from real makers of course (why fake a low value item making counterfeits?). Like in the good old days of black market street buys, 'know your dealer' is super important.

    Thanks again for the laugh and good advice.

    Interesting. They specifically say the cell is not protected then say 'they all have a protection circuit'??

    As to the fast recharge ability, that's not what it seems at first. Secondary cells (rechargeable, like here rather than 'one shot' like Alkalines) in general can be charged as fast as discharged, with few exceptions the chemical process is completely reversible. My electric car (home made conversion of a Fiat X-19 using a surplus airplane starter/generator (B-29s in fact had seven each) and then state of the art golf cart batteries) could discharge the bank at 400 Amps to go over a hill or get off the line fast (maybe 150 on the flats) but going downhill it would then generate that same level (400 Amps) 'the other way' and recharge the bank at 400 Amps until I would run out of hill. You had to be in the 'right' gear of course.

    So I think recharge rate is linked to the trade offs made, not something inherently better?

    Thanks for the additional information, any idea why they forbid usage in the very place we want to? I'd appreciate any insight there since their warning concerns me.

    OF
     
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  23. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    @INDIVA: Oh, if that's really a custom production run, I stand corrected. It might be the real deal then, thank you for sharing! HohmTech already made quite some splash when they released their innovative e-cig mod chipset able to perform TC on nearly any material including Kanthal. From what I gathered they use a novel method to measure resistance sending "pings" through the coil(s) and measuring propagation times, or something around those lines (but it's mostly online speculation, someone would have to find their patent to know for sure)

    It should be noted that despite all the listed improvements, their cell is still rated 20.7A CDR when the HG2 is (over)rated 20A by the manufacturer. So the difference on paper is minimal at best, but I have no reason to doubt your experience, if you say that they really perform better than the competition and it's not just because your cells are newer/fresher, must be true then.

    I'm crawling back under my pile of mushy potatoes... :D

    PS: sorry if my first reaction was to think "yet another grossly over-rated rewrapped cell", but you got to understand that we spend a considerable amount of time warning newbies about the dangers of Li-Ion batteries and especially when getting them from suspicious sources and/or suspicious brands (ex: Sure-Fire, Ultra-Fire or anything fire, as seen a few posts above yours)

    ---

    Oh well, the suspense didn't last long, and here's the verdict: slightly worse than the HG2, getting hotter with more sag.

    [​IMG]
    (graph credit: Mooch @ ECF)​

    ...and the full test: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...-battery-but-a-great-one-equal-to-hg2.715692/

    It should be noted that at 20A CDR the cell reached 85°C, enough to burn your finger!

    And here's a link to the test of their 26650: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...ts-only-23a-same-as-basen-brillipower.755049/

    They are irresponsible when advertising their cells with their pulse rating rather than their CDR, a single run at their listed value was enough to permanently damage the cell...
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  24. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    And enough to push it 25C over maximum allowed temperature for typical Li-ions......
    http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/NCR18650B.pdf

    This is not only very very tough on the battery lifespan (all sorts of things happen past 50C usually) but it's likely to be out right dangerous! Heat build up is something electric car packs are designed to deal with so it might not be a problem there but it could be truly serious inside some random vapes that might not conduct heat out as well as others?

    Perhaps this is why they so strongly forbid it?

    Until we know more I'll stick with my original advice, 'stick with the NCR18650B Arizer recommends'.

    Thanks KZ.

    OF
     
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  25. ghostofcyberx13

    ghostofcyberx13 And That Ain't No Joke, You Can Disappear In Smoke

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    Hello. All this stuff is "Rocket Science" to me and you seem to be a "Battery Wizard" so please help me out here. I bought a Revenger X Mod but I am waiting for the batteries(Amazon purchased) that will arrive today. I shopped around and bought NITECORE IMR 3100 mAh 35A 18650 Rechargeble Batteries(2) with free "Eco-Sense" Battery Case. Cost $31.95 from Andrew-Amanda NITECORE. I would appreciate all info, opinion, and/or advice you can give me pertaining to the batteries and/or Revenger X(220w kit with 5m Tank). Thank you so very much. Also a big thanks to all who have posted info, pics, etc. to this very important thread. I just wanna get high, I don't wanna die(Or burn the house down). Speaking for myself, I can hook up a home theater but I certainly am not even close to anything resembleing an electrician, and I would venture a guess that most here aren't either. So again thanks to you "Battery Geniuses" posting on this thread. Sayonara.
     
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