Discontinued The RBT Milaana (unregulated single 18650)

grokit said:

The thing that gets me about the usa 22mm joint choice is this: if rbt had chosen to go with an iso 28mm joint, then the vaporizers themselves would be at the most 6mm longer. But it would also be impossible to damage the heater by inserting the "wrong" kind of glass joint; it just wouldn't work as well. This seems to me to be a much better choice, all things considered. But I could be missing something here?

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The decision to use the US joint on the stems was made before I came on, but I WILL say that an ISO joint would have less surface area facing the heater and the bowl would be a little narrower and longer. Those would all be features that diminish output, stir-ability, etc. These were also the reason that 18mm glass was used rather than 14mm glass, which was also tested.
I'm not certain these are the reasons for the US joint, but they make perfect sense to me.

IMO it makes sense that International Orders would take a bit more time to be sorted out. And I can see the rationale for the less narrow joint despite it being kind of a PITA to make sure it's correct (because of the stirring and increased surface area exposed on the shorter joint)

With regards to the ISO joint, would it still be workable? Is there a spot where it seals, but is not yet pressing against the heater? Couldn't let it sit on it, but with careful hands, workable? Obviously a rough experiment to want to try lol

Respect most certainly is a two way street, but, the other part of that phrase is, "you have to give it, to expect it" or some variation.

http://fuckcombustion.com/search/34675057/

Those are my posts in the Zion thread, I don't recommend them

Only 20 posts there, but the first 5 posts are all glowingly respectful and positive, with the 6th just asking how I could get in contact.. I only turned into a negative Nancy when the respect stopped. So it is a two way street, absolutely, and easily forgettable so thank you @thekarmawhore for reminding us where the buck stops.

grokit said:

The thing that gets me about the usa 22mm joint choice is this: if rbt had chosen to go with an iso 28mm joint, then the vaporizers themselves would be at the most 6mm longer. But it would also be impossible to damage the heater by inserting the "wrong" kind of glass joint; it just wouldn't work as well. This seems to me to be a much better choice, all things considered. But I could be missing something here?

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Yes what cybr said sounds good lol, also it simply has to do with his supplier. My beta Zion had different glass too actually, then he found a better supplier going forward (all clear glass now too). Maybe future generations will be different.

momofthegoons said:

These remarks are inflammatory and as a manufacturer's rep you should know better. These are your customers and they are the ones who should be treated with respect and not admonished. If you see a problem, you should hit the report button just as we require the general membership to.

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Agree, just wanted to point out despite having the manufacturer banner, that i don't believe karma partakes in any financial aspects of the company, merely helped design things with autoCAD as far as I know. So I wouldn't call RBT customers, his customers at all. I think it's unfortunate bc it restricts his opinion and makes him seem like a rep here when really he is not imo. Regardless I do agree they were a bit inflammatory, though I do also believe the two way street respect thing. It is debatable what is respectful i suppose sometimes though

@HellsWindStaff yes, but bottom line ISO is inconsistent, worse performance, and just frustrating in my experience, regardless of potential damage or warranty issues

HellsWindStaff said:

With regards to the ISO joint, would it still be workable? Is there a spot where it seals, but is not yet pressing against the heater? Couldn't let it sit on it, but with careful hands, workable? Obviously a rough experiment to want to try lol

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No, it really has to be a US joint. The only (relatively) easy way to damage this device is to use it with glass that is not properly seated. Damage to the screen from doing this may not be repaired under warranty, so it isn't worth even trying it. If all you can find is ISO glass, it CAN be cut down 4mm, but I wouldn't want to do it accept in the most extreme of circumstances. I think @Shit Snacks has one that works ok this way, but I think the inside diameter may be an issue for him.

The length of ISO is too long and resting on the screen will prevent a seal. Some have been able to get a hit with it, but it is a danger to the screen and should not be done.

One more time. ISO BAD. US GOOD.

Rinse, repeat.

(I hate when I just miss that 5min window)

cybrguy said:

The decision to use the US joint on the stems was made before I came on, but I WILL say that an ISO joint would have less surface area facing the heater and the bowl would be a little narrower and longer. Those would all be features that diminish output, stir-ability, etc. These were also the reason that 18mm glass was used rather than 14mm glass, which was also tested.
I'm not certain these are the reasons for the US joint, but they make perfect sense to me.

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This was my observation too, along with an ISO joint sqweezing the screen even tighter if you wanted to push the screen near the tip like i do.

IAmKrazy2 said:

This was my observation too, along with an ISO joint sqweezing the screen even tighter if you wanted to push the screen near the tip like i do.

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Yes and as cybr said, my cut down ISO joint (7/8inch length 18mm joint btw) is then too wide of an ID, the longer part is narrower as you said and it slopes like a cone unlike the more square US joints. I was able to get the old wider RBT screens in but barely, and they are even more close to the edge than I would like (I prefer to have a cm or two glass rim above my basket screens). RBT is still supposed to cut down my bent stem from ALT and send it to me some day when he has time...

Just a reminder that all will likely figure out on their own, but when there is no battery in your Milaana, be careful with the freely swinging copper battery holder. It has some mass and could conceivably crack the glass female joint if struck hard enough. Not a terribly likely problem but worth paying attention to.

I have to stop reading this tread. It makes me cringe. I thought zions were already shipped, both ways many times, internationnally by the beta team. What needs to be sorted if the mileena has less parts? I mean, internationnal deliveries were promessed too. What is more complicated than delivering zions? The delivered to germany explanation; I would love to know what human or system error can lead to that.

And now preorderers must see it as a priviledge that rbt took internationnal preorders It confirms I did the right decision to cancel. Not because of the additionnal wait I would have had, but the lack of respect to preorderers.

People accepting lack of respect are invited to think of their selfrespect in general. Speaking for myself in other situation, but patting me in the back to have done the right thing here.

There is something that needs to be changed. @Shit Snacks You are great with your time responding to everyone in an always constructive manner. But in short, you need to be tagged as a zion and mileena rep. I could go on on how rbt can exploit the fact you are relaying his information without responsibilities comming from him. You can, like you did with preorders, mislead. You are always well intentionned imho, but rbt benefits from it at the preorderer's expenses.

Rbt gets all the benefits he would if he had chosen to stay with us from you relaying his information with the much larger expression latitude we regular users get. He basically is cheating the fc's manufacturers restrictions using your voice.

if anyone can get in contact with rbt @thekarmawhore @Shit Snacks . @AJS and I need to have our shipping information changed to avoid future troubles. I emailed via paypal but haven't heard anything of course

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You may read between the lines...

nondarb said:

Saying you're going to do something (in this case provide tracking and indication youre shipped out!) and then not doing it is a lie no matter what the excuse is.

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Not following through on promises is not proof of deceit. There are explanations outside of the definition of "lying", so your accusation of lying is off base here. We don't allow accusations of lying around here, so your post earned a warning point.

spoutti said:

I have to stop reading this tread. It makes me cringe. I thought zions were already shipped, both ways many times, internationnally by the beta team.

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Zion and Milaana have both crossed international borders in the past, it's true.
I know that he allowed int'l orders for the Milaana.
RBT has not said anything to me about int'l orders/shipping, so I can only speculate as to what might need to be changed with his int'l shipping courier. As far as I knew all shipping should continue for the Milaana, but I only talk to the man here and there. It has only been recently that the first few Milaana have arrived. I'm sure more and more Milaana will go to their homes every week, as we've been told, and if there's an int'l shipping issue, I'm sure RBT will iron it out.

"Milaana Update

A "Surprise" shipment of 50 units was made the week of 4/18. This shipment required a concerted effort by the recently appointed manufacturer to install the electrical and ventilation infrastructure, purchase and set all machinery, design, fabricate and test assembly tooling, generate standard operating procedures, hire and train staff as well as execute and ship the first 50 units. Without the financial and human resource backing provided by our manufacturer, this would not have been possible. Much Love



These units where shipped to US customers to allow time for confirmation of acceptable performance before starting overseas shipments in order to prevent costly returns in the event something is new technology. We apologize if this created shipping concerns by people assuming we where shipping chronologically. We promise to ensure that everyone that ordered a Milaana will will receive it but ask for your continued patience. Pre-Order sales, with the long delay, frequent refunds and change in orders makes for a mess but if customers work with the new manufacturer over the coming weeks they will clean up the mess with ease as it is less than 100 customers to sort out. Once shipping resumes an email confirmations will be made prior to shipment as well as a start-up instruction.. Again, please excuse our need to get initial units out in the field for a quick pilot test to ensure proper function before mass shipment to mitigate costly return risks for RBT and it's customers.



Moving forward the Manufacturer will ensure that all issues are resolved and all back orders will be made as they are now in direct control of RBT PayPal and WWW form submissions. One of the strengths of the new manufacture is that they have the shipping infrastructure in place to clean up the individual shipments and then moving to supplying our initial retail outlets in the coming months.



Initial retail sales will be to local vape, smoke and glass shops in the New England area with world wide online sales provided by Planet Vape Our initial retailer, 42 Degrees in Glens Falls NY, debuted the Milaana at their annual glass show on 4/20 with rave reviews. More than 10 local stores in NY and VT are agreed to carry the Milaana which will provide the lion's share of the volume needed to consume the limited production volume of the plant which is predicted to start at 20 - 40 units per week. Local shops and Planet Vape should be fully stocked in May with the balance of the volume being available for wholesale purchase on the RBT www."
Zion is also updated.

spoutti said:

I have to stop reading this tread. It makes me cringe. I thought zions were already shipped, both ways many times, internationnally by the beta team. What needs to be sorted if the mileena has less parts? I mean, internationnal deliveries were promessed too. What is more complicated than delivering zions? The delivered to germany explanation; I would love to know what human or system error can lead to that.

And now preorderers must see it as a priviledge that rbt took internationnal preorders It confirms I did the right decision to cancel. Not because of the additionnal wait I would have had, but the lack of respect to preorderers.

People accepting lack of respect are invited to think of their selfrespect in general. Speaking for myself in other situation, but patting me in the back to have done the right thing here.

There is something that needs to be changed. @Shit Snacks You are great with your time responding to everyone in an always constructive manner. But in short, you need to be tagged as a zion and mileena rep. I could go on on how rbt can exploit the fact you are relaying his information without responsibilities comming from him. You can, like you did with preorders, mislead. You are always well intentionned imho, but rbt benefits from it at the preorderer's expenses.

Rbt gets all the benefits he would if he had chosen to stay with us from you relaying his information with the much larger expression latitude we regular users get. He basically is cheating the fc's manufacturers restrictions using your voice.

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You are cringing over unknowns. We just don't know, any of us, its all speculative. Always seemed a privilege to me, bc Milaana international orders were allowed for a long while after Zion orders were not. Clearly there is some extra burden even if you cannot see it. Nice of you to imply that anyone who didn't request a refund has little self respect though, its not like they were informed buyers who knew what they were getting into with a new business and are willing to wait it out for the actual product or anything...

Again, I have said many times I am literally not a rep. I am not told to post or do anything but provide feedback on beta products. I share at my own discretion and of course only have a small part of the picture as evident by the latest update. I just knew it was coming. I completely disagree any of this is at pre orders' "expense" but the exact opposite: I am probably sharing more than he would like and I do it for my FC bretheren bc that is what I would want from a beta tester of a vape I was highly anticipating... I know many others don't have this policy, play it close to the vest, and frankly I can see why.

But sure you are entitled to your opinion. I am also entitled to mine, that you offered nothing to this thread, which is supposed to be about a currently shipping new product btw, just that you already got your refund and are happy even though they're now shipping... I am also pretty sure RBT doesn't really care about FC itself much overall, certainly not enough to even bother skirting the rules here btw

I started to type and realized that I've already said this in the Zion thread:

pakalolo said:

I have already posted that this thread is not a free-for-all where everyone gets to tell RBT how to run his business. You get to state your complaint once and then you have to move on. If your complaint is that you don't like how he communicates or estimates his progress, then please note that this has been already beaten to death and nothing you can say will add anything constructive.

RBT supporters likewise need to note that it is the moderators who are responsible for keeping the critics in line. Admonishing other members simply causes friction and leads to flames. If someone is breaking the rules, report it and do not respond; otherwise, ignore it or use a PM.

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All of this griping will not have the slightest effect on how RBT does business. It simply causes friction and drives the discussion towards flames and personal attacks. Unless you genuinely have something new to add, find a post that expresses your dissatisfaction and "like" it. If you still think you want to post, make sure that you stay respectful and aren't repeating what's been said already.

Shit Snacks said:

We could have been better, so sorry there too, no one asked for a pros and cons list somehow...

Anyway wishing you luck on the next purchase, and seriously sorry again dude, did not mean anything against you, just sharing my own perspectives. It is important to have yours as well, so thank you for sharing despite everything.

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flotntoke said:

Just wanted to thank you for coming on and giving your honest opinion of the vape and how the whole deal went for you. Great of you to come on and give your honest opinion, and sorry to see you had to take flack for it. Awesome of you to put it out there for a reasonable price since you didn't want it.

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Thanks, it's all more than good my FC brethren!!! Sorry if I was a tad prickly, just a side effect of swimming upstream.

One final note on the design/assembly: A friend (who I'd convinced to preorder Zion but canceled due to inactivity) came by as I was packing the Milaana for shipping. He's a dealer in fine antiques, and sorry to say, was not impressed. He pointed out the copious/sloppy adhesive, slightly misaligned corners, and of course the potential to break the glass merely by swinging the battery door was a deal breaker (seems like a blatant design flaw IMO). Anyway, he was happy that he'd canceled his Zion order months ago. He said it looked like something he'd make if he had a weekend to make a vape. Not trying to offend, just providing honest focus group feedback. Incidentally, this same friend did quite like my FW. I found the Milaana to be a nice lil nugget o' wood, but those looking for fine handmade craftsmanship may be disappointed.

thekarmawhore said:

Respect is a two way street.

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I beg to differ, "pal"...the customer is always right!

Signed,
A former customer

Damn, I'm getting an ugly vape...lol..

At the intro price point, hearing second hand about the Milaana aesthetics being nit picked by an "antiques dealer" does not really seem relevant. This is a vape, a tool, a means to an end. That end being herbal vaporization. For me, the heater tech is proven. Rough edges=personality.

The website now has some nice shots of Milaana! Thx for posting the update, @AJS

As for the aesthetics, I thought everyone preordered betas? I think mine is pretty well put together, though there is room for improvement in the next iteration. I am becoming a bit biased toward janky looking vapes now, though..

Scrimshaw said:

Thanks, it's all more than good my FC brethren!!! Sorry if I was a tad prickly, just a side effect of swimming upstream.

One final note on the design/assembly: A friend (who I'd convinced to preorder Zion but canceled due to inactivity) came by as I was packing the Milaana for shipping. He's a dealer in fine antiques, and sorry to say, was not impressed. He pointed out the copious/sloppy adhesive, slightly misaligned corners, and of course the potential to break the glass merely by swinging the battery door was a deal breaker (seems like a blatant design flaw IMO). Anyway, he was happy that he'd canceled his Zion order months ago. He said it looked like something he'd make if he had a weekend to make a vape. Not trying to offend, just providing honest focus group feedback. Incidentally, this same friend did quite like my FW. I found the Milaana to be a nice lil nugget o' wood, but those looking for fine handmade craftsmanship may be disappointed.

I beg to differ, "pal"...the customer is always right!

Signed,
A former customer

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First, the customer is not always right. I don't know what world (or time in history) you live in to think that is the case, but it hasn't been in the US for quite some time. And, more and more businesses are telling pain in the ass or whiny customers, "Don't come back. I don't want your money." I have a few small businesses besides my day job and I make no qualms about it. If the headaches, relentless bitching, moaning and whining (like we've seen too much of here - some not even from customers!) starts seeming like it outweighs the profit margin - it only makes sense to cut those people loose. Not that it is phrased like this, but I think that may be much of the sentiment in RBT's refund - and i know it is why I (and suspect others here) regularly suggest to incessant whiners to just get their fuckin refund and be on their merry way.

Second, I don't know what you thought you were getting. Maybe I totally missed what you read, but I thought all along I was getting a revolutionary, kick-ass, portable heater and an all glass airpath. Handmade (or close to it), yes. But, handcrafted? No. If the initial posts and the way RBT and his friends closeby described it didn't tip you off, all of the pictures of an unfinished piece of wood should have. I don't know why it would be any surprise the copper door would swing around - it looks pretty obvious to me in all of the pictures. The glue shouldn't be like that, nor should the corners - but just taking a guess here... they may have been working as quickly as possible to get them out the door for those who have been waiting. And, I really couldn't give less of a fuck about what a dealer in fine antiques thinks about it. I didn't buy a fine antique (neither did you in case you're wondering). I bought a portable convection vape that was supposed to deliver the power of convection desktops. Focus group feedback? Really? I better stop, but maybe you should as well (or should have before this post).

That's why I wrote what I did (that you quoted). You came on, said you didn't like it and why - then sold it. Done, right? Be done then, would you?

From a different perspective.... I'm loving my Milaana!! Yes, it is just a hunk of unfinished wood (though considering what stain i want to put on it every time I use it). Corners look fine and there is just a bit too much glue where the bottom is glued to the body. Kind of figure that will pretty much disappear with the staining. Yeah, it's got glass and yeah the copper battery top will hit it if you try to change the battery with the stem in. But, why would I? Why would anyone? It's pretty obvious the stem should only be in there in use - not while changing a battery.

Which brings me to the main point, and the best thing about it. It produces AMAZING vapor without a cord. Pure convection, flavor city with huge clouds on demand. It does take a little practice to get the technique down (and gleefully enjoying that practice by the way!), but it ain't rocket science. So, I can be sitting at home, out on a hike, cruising a country road, wherever whenever and getting great vapor on demand just how I want it right then. Thinner, low temp "headier" vapor? Easy - no problem! Feel like ripping a big cloud? Just feather the button less and adjust draw a little. Want to go through water? No problem - change to an M2M and have at it. I'm blow away by it. Was all I was hoping for and then some.

One more thing I wanted to throw out here before I get off this rant... I read somewhere above some suppositions by someone who doesn't have an Mi. Never a good idea by the way, though I have seen it happen here and in the other RBT thread more than a few times. Anyway.... someone said something about drawing faster to cool the heater. They obviously don't have one. There is no drawing past the heater on your first couple loads on a fresh battery. I instinctively tried when it was getting a little hot, and I was too buzzed to remember to release the button. I just pulled like I do with any other portable (and a few desktops) to cool it down. Bad idea, and last time I'll do that! When my 5 minute coughing session finally let up, I went and scraped my lung off the wall 10' away!

EDIT: Forgot to include, if you pre-ordered you're getting a first run new product that is now barely in production. And, no matter how long you're waiting - you're still ahead of true "consumer" production. If you might have problems with a few warts in the looks or issues that have yet to be found, you should wait a couple months and buy one from a true consumer vendor. You'll also probably get the customer service more than a few have been whining about here. But, you won't get the pre-order discount, and you won't get your Milaana as soon as some others. If you pre-ordered and want those things, please get your refund - and pay retail when it is available. But, whatever the case realize what you're getting into and keep your expectations realistic. If waiting after payment, unexpected shipping, lack of CS or other such quibbles are going to be an issue for you don't pre-order. Not this or anything else, vape or otherwise.

Modnote: As mentioned above by Pakalolo, please leave thread moderation to the staff.

flotntoke said:

get their fuckin refund and be on their merry way

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I did, and now I'm quitting this site because of people like you.

flotntoke said:

First, the customer is not always right. I don't know what world (or time in history) you live in to think that is the case, but it hasn't been in the US for quite some time. And, more and more businesses are telling pain in the ass or whiny customers, "Don't come back. I don't want your money." I have a few small businesses besides my day job and I make no qualms about it. If the headaches, relentless bitching, moaning and whining (like we've seen too much of here - some not even from customers!) starts seeming like it outweighs the profit margin - it only makes sense to cut those people loose. Not that it is phrased like this, but I think that may be much of the sentiment in RBT's refund - and i know it is why I (and suspect others here) regularly suggest to incessant whiners to just get their fuckin refund and be on their merry way.

Second, I don't know what you thought you were getting. Maybe I totally missed what you read, but I thought all along I was getting a revolutionary, kick-ass, portable heater and an all glass airpath. Handmade (or close to it), yes. But, handcrafted? No. If the initial posts and the way RBT and his friends closeby described it didn't tip you off, all of the pictures of an unfinished piece of wood should have. I don't know why it would be any surprise the copper door would swing around - it looks pretty obvious to me in all of the pictures. The glue shouldn't be like that, nor should the corners - but just taking a guess here... they may have been working as quickly as possible to get them out the door for those who have been waiting. And, I really couldn't give less of a fuck about what a dealer in fine antiques thinks about it. I didn't buy a fine antique (neither did you in case you're wondering). I bought a portable convection vape that was supposed to deliver the power of convection desktops. Focus group feedback? Really? I better stop, but maybe you should as well (or should have before this post).

That's why I wrote what I did (that you quoted). You came on, said you didn't like it and why - then sold it. Done, right? Be done then, would you?

From a different perspective.... I'm loving my Milaana!! Yes, it is just a hunk of unfinished wood (though considering what stain i want to put on it every time I use it). Corners look fine and there is just a bit too much glue where the bottom is glued to the body. Kind of figure that will pretty much disappear with the staining. Yeah, it's got glass and yeah the copper battery top will hit it if you try to change the battery with the stem in. But, why would I? Why would anyone? It's pretty obvious the stem should only be in there in use - not while changing a battery.

Which brings me to the main point, and the best thing about it. It produces AMAZING vapor without a cord. Pure convection, flavor city with huge clouds on demand. It does take a little practice to get the technique down (and gleefully enjoying that practice by the way!), but it ain't rocket science. So, I can be sitting at home, out on a hike, cruising a country road, wherever whenever and getting great vapor on demand just how I want it right then. Thinner, low temp "headier" vapor? Easy - no problem! Feel like ripping a big cloud? Just feather the button less and adjust draw a little. Want to go through water? No problem - change to an M2M and have at it. I'm blow away by it. Was all I was hoping for and then some.

One more thing I wanted to throw out here before I get off this rant... I read somewhere above some suppositions by someone who doesn't have an Mi. Never a good idea by the way, though I have seen it happen here and in the other RBT thread more than a few times. Anyway.... someone said something about drawing faster to cool the heater. They obviously don't have one. There is no drawing past the heater on your first couple loads on a fresh battery. I instinctively tried when it was getting a little hot, and I was too buzzed to remember to release the button. I just pulled like I do with any other portable (and a few desktops) to cool it down. Bad idea, and last time I'll do that! When my 5 minute coughing session finally let up, I went and scraped my lung off the 10' away wall!

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Love this review (but a little harsh at the start bro! I know now you have a little baby, who is making you very very happy, to protect though ) mostly good stuff...

About the copper door, he meant against the joint, event with no stem loaded, but j think it's actually thick enough glass that that won't happen. I guess we'll see, if it does, especially often, maybe it will warranty a redesign. I'm also sure fit and finish, rather handcraftedness could improve if more money came in to justify time spent on that, maybe some day. It is fine feedback, it just may never be used is all.

I also have actually swapped battery with a stem loaded too, no problem, can catch or hold the copper latch, but even without bothering doesn't seem to be an issue. It can't get enough momentum to actually bud force and break the glass imo. Again time will tell

Come on people lets get back to focusing on the actual vape, we don't need to discuss individuals (be they members or manufacturers) anymore if we ever did, and we're not even technically allowed to here

I wondered in a PM if some of the Mi s might have the joint countersunk like the production Zions are. That might be nice, but I didn't think he had room.

Sorry- I don't think I can handle rereading this thread. Could someone either point me to the page with the link or re add the link to get the adaptor that fits with the correct joint.

Shit Snacks said:

... (but a little harsh at the start bro! I know now you have a little baby, who is making you very very happy, to protect though )...

Come on people lets get back to focusing on the actual vape, we don't need to discuss individuals (be they members or manufacturers) anymore if we ever did, and we're not even technically allowed to here

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I know, but I can only take so much. And, it wasn't all that particular post. I had just read through the past few pages and the impressions from "a fine antique dealer" and comment about "handmade craftmanship" were just more than I can handle. I'm only buzzed, not full on stoned out of my gourd.

On the actual vape...

cybrguy said:

I wondered in a PM if some of the Mi s might have the joint countersunk like the production Zions are. That might be nice, but I didn't think he had room.

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Mine isn't quite flush, but kind of recessed. 1/2 turn on the thumbscrew makes it loose enough that the copper goes right past the female part of the glass without touching. Never even thought this is what the concerns above were about. Just figured they were with the stem. Other reason I was thinking like that is that you'd have to be swinging things pretty hard to get that piece of copper to crack the glass glued in. And again, I think this is pretty obvious in the pictures I've seen.

little maggie said:

Sorry- I don't think I can handle rereading this thread. Could someone either point me to the page with the link or re add the link to get the adaptor that fits with the correct joint.

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There are others out there, but this looks like the best for the price. Be sure to specify you want US size 18.8mm joints. May be good to say it is for a Zion. Yeah, I know it's for a Milaana, but don't know if OGB is familiar with it. He is familiar with Zion.