The Nomad From Morwood

Make the heat source a mini coal powered stove with a little handmade wooden shovel....that is also a poker/scooper on the other end....oh and i want a little train whistle/horn on it so i can warn people when im about to get wrecked.

KeroZen said:

I had hope for a couple of days, then... "flame powered"... meh... stone age in a futuristic package? I'll pass and unsubscribe. Have fun guys!

Click to expand...

No decisions have been made yet.

@Breathemetal , Hahahaha!

I have some suuuper rough, super not to be taken too seriously sketches. These could go somewhere, or nowhere, but I thought I would post em.

I'm mainly just seeing how the larger form factor could work with a mouthpiece/whip.. If this ends up being battery powered, the whip could come out the top. If it's got a fuel/alcohol burner inside, the exhuast heat rising upwards would probably put the whip down lower..coming out the side...

Anyhow, just playin' around with it.





Right now Im diggin' the idea of a base made of steel, which could hold batteries or fuel of some sort, a bottom cap of dark wood, and a middle segment of glass, to see the chamber/heater inside, glowy light and such, and a top of steel/wood...

The steel would most likely be patinad dark bluish black or dark rust brown, OR perhaps a sort of matte gray sandblasted look...who knows... The glass tube would be connected via o-ring seals.

Some inspiring images.







I kinda like the idea of a flame heat source because it gives you so much heat to play around with... also it couulldd provide enough extra energy to power an LED without batteries or circuitry.

But also...with all these parts, these ideas are looking..expensive to me..

The RHS one is actually a piece of functional jewellery. A necklace.

Dan Morrison said:

I am a big fan of seeing a flame of some sort, heh. And the potential heat energy in a flame is great. I would like to see a design where the torch/burner and fuel tank were integral. So you could just open a valve, hit a piezo and your device starts right up. This also presents an opportunity for more exact temperature control... either with a fuel valve (not ideal because I'm not fond of that compressed fuel "jet engine" sound), or with positional control over the distance between the heat source and heat exchanger.

Click to expand...

Dan Morrison said:

I kinda like the idea of a flame heat source because it gives you so much heat to play around with... also it couulldd provide enough extra energy to power an LED without batteries or circuitry.

Click to expand...

You sir are speaking my language. Fire as a heat source is hard to compete with in terms of power and speed! I like the idea of integral pizeo and adjustable tank, it was executed well in the hammer but alas... It's plastic. There's a lot of versatility in what sort of heat exchanger or oven you could use, however distancing the flame as you mentioned would make it almost like a self contained lily or daisy?! Lots of ideas...

Dan Morrison said:

The game changes when you're not designing for mass production!

Click to expand...

I agree with this to a certain extent, but I am still really skeptical. Don't get me wrong, I'm beyond excited to see what you put out, as everything you make is absolutely gorgeous.

Electronics are extremely difficult to work with, as we can all see from the tens of failed portable vaporizers, and to use them on a small scale (while keeping them semi-compact) is exorbitantly expensive.

Good luck, though! I'm eager to see updates, and for this to move beyond the conceptual phase!

edit: jeez, the stuff on page two (that I didn't see before) is next level. Really digging the concept art so far.

Halogen needn't involve complicated circutry.
It can be driven by a wide range of voltages/wattages.
It avoids the need for an expensive to develop and manufacture custom heat source.
It provides light as well as heat.
It's considerably safer than gas/liquid fuel and an open flame.
Ceramic mounts are readily available for halogen bulbs.
Halogen bulbs are readily available, relatively cheap and often fairly easy to replace.
They can also be configured to provide almost instant convection, conduction and I.R. radiation energy, all at once or separately.
Halogen also avoids the production of waste gases.

The lack of sound could be considered either a pro, or a con, depending on what you're looking for.

Very convenient in all sorts of ways.
But I recognise that convenience isn't the principal driving inspiration in this case.

You could easily go the other way, and use pressure stored from a manual pump to drive a fire piston, or friction heater.
Stoners need exercise too!

Bio ethanol is seeing some domestic use now as it's fairly clean burning.

Tea break is over now, but I'll be back!

sherb said:

Electronics are extremely difficult to work with

Click to expand...

Not necessarily the E cig world is full proven electronic and chip sets are readily available off the shelf.

Dan Morrison said:

these ideas are looking..expensive to me.

Click to expand...

It would depend on where you wanted to go with this. I know some stuff is costly but there are other solutions which are very very cheap.

I think the halogen source should be fully looked into. See the Apollo for portable use of one. Good call @Copacetic

@sherb , I would agree with most of what you've said. Like @phattpiggie mentioned, in recent years there have been a lots of advancements in e-cig tech allowing for cheaper chips for smaller manufacturers that only need hundreds, instead of hundreds of thousands of units.

And the communities popping up around box mods have a growing knowledge base flush with tutorials and experimental approaches.

BUT, like originally stated, I want to keep the design as simple as possible, so I naturally gravitate away from circuitry of any kind.. and like you said, keeping it compact can be an issue. Also, just so we are clear, I would not consider designing my own custom board.

Halogen does really interest me, most recently, the Apollo really seems to have gotten it right in a portable unit. And the idea of user replaceable bulbs is great!

Imagine a bulb made out of silver, instead of glass. With a surface like a heat sink, many fins. It wouldn't show any light, but the heat transfer would be so great. Perhaps this would mess with the recipe however... radiant heat deflection, overheating the element..who knows..

For the chamber itself, Ive been thinking about the popcorn air popper design. I like the IDEA of this... using a circular chamber, like a hollow ring donut, with side inlets to direct the air in a circular motion, like a cannister vacuum cleaner that spins the debri inside... The chamber load would be spun by inrushing hot air, evenly stirring it up as you draw, while also increasing the soak time, as the load particles may travel with the hot air around the donut shaped chamber. BUT, this model probably won't work in reality... I THINK that the draw speed would have to increase, the fast air may nullify any soak time gains, and sticky loads may not move around at all... Also I suspect the loose pack needed to allow rotation will show that much of the hot air rushes around and past the loaded particles...and the vapour will taste airy..thin..not thick. But I will experiment. With enough heat and large enough chamber it could be possible to vape a massive chamber load evenly... but then we also have the issue of needed a full chamber load to get a satisfying experience..not ideal for light users.. And concentrates would be out.

Conversely, I like the idea of a compacted chamber load.. Perhaps a screw mechanism that crushes your load into a thin disc. Then you load this disc into the chamber and tamp it down tightly. A chamber of compressed air with control valve to push air through a heat exchanger and then through the packed load very slowly. But...that also sounds a bit crazy to me hahaha. And while I borrow the idea from espresso machines...I also know that water and air don't push through a packed media the same way... the pressurized air would probably just find a tiny spot to burst through...leaving the rest of the packed disc untouched.

Hmmm.

Also.. for a heat exchancher, I know that there is room for advancements here. Using a metal foam or pure silver plated mesh really excites me. It's alll about that surface area...

Dan, I think you have another fish ready to bite here! I also think since your spit balling ideas and letting your inspiration drive this I am not really concerned which direction you go. I like others suggestions, but they seem so minimalistic in thought compared to the shit that comes out of your keyboard. No offense to my FC brothers and sisters.

And to add to the pool of minimalistic thoughts I do urge you to check out the Supreme vaporizer. Your talk of heat exchange makes me mention this because the Supreme technology is just that, a SS heat exchanger. The air moves through SS fins/channels which provides a huge surface area keeping a very consistent heat for a good amount of time. I would love the idea of something that would heat up faster and for longer than the current version of the Supreme V3, however a totally different design. It sounds like you could be going in this direction, however I intend to follow whichever direction you take.

Honestly any skepticism is unwarranted, we are talking about a truly mayer craftsman and I have absolutely no doubts this will not only come to fruition, it will be fucking amazing!

@Dan Morrison check out this post:

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/magic-flight-launch-tube.581/page-4#post-55009

It was the design magicflight had before they landed on the launch box. Some things are similar and it's a cool read.

Hey @Dan Morrison ,
Have you given up on the "opium-pipe inspired vaporizer"? I'm not the biggest fan of whip tubing and I still think the idea of a using a vape heated by a lamp is one of the greatest ever. It's also some what similar to one of my favorite vaporizers, The Vapman paired with the Vapman heating station.

VH: Is this one of your creations?


DM: Ha, and yep, that's one of mine.

" was also thinking that an opium-pipe inspired vaporizer would be a really cool desktop model. The traditional opium pipe kit had to be paired with an opium lamp. This glass lamp would channel a stream of hot air up and out of the glass 'chimney'. This hot air stream would allow for vaporization in the opium pipe bowl. The same exact theory could be applied for herb vaporization."

Click to expand...

@Dan Morrison on the loose pack vortexing idea, I have an enail that uses that idea.

The air passes through the nail that has rifled holes in it to create the vortex but the nails surface has to be in excess of 700 degrees to get the best results.

That's also using Ti so I'm sure you can come up with something of your own but I figured I share that. It's a great idea and the flavor is incredible! I'd love to see if you can make a variation of this idea.
https://instagram.com/p/4SDQOuG8cv/

@nosmoking , That supreme vape is wild! haha. I think this shos that the tech hs potential.

This PDF shows a really cool heater design using Nichrome foam as the actual heating element, pretty neat!

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...CleGqb7q5uZZ0ZymQ&sig2=KLSaLuwAcv7gS0KVo8HmEw

Also, there are liquid coolant pipes with internal fins/metal foam, but these are usually made of copper..not the best for an airway. I could see using a tube filled with tiny SS ball bearings perhaps...

@stickstones , woow, thats a blast from the past! It's so cool to see the birth of a vape that became so huge in the market. Thanks for posting that!

@VAPEHUNTER , I'm not totally off it. But I am more drawn to combining the two parts, the lamp, and the stem/chamber, into one unit with precise control over the position of heat source relative to exchanger, giving more consistent temp regulation.

But..imagine a pipe like the one you posted, with a heat exchanger mounted ontop of the bowl..and a torch/fuel tank unit that slides along the bamboo stem...the sliding motion would bring the torch further or closer to the heat exchanger... hmmm

@NickDlow , Oh WOW, thats exactly what I was imagining! This gives me some hope on the idea.. The rifling is an interesting way to create the vortex that I had not thought about.. I was imagining a chamber more like this...



This is the inside of a popcorn air popper. Imagine the heating elements, or heat exchanger being just on the other side of those vent holes. And perhaps a center post to make the chamber a ring instead of a circle, so that there is no central dead spot with no air movement.

the jets in the Herbalaire have a spinning alignment as well, i believe.

Dan Morrison said:

@nosmoking ,
@NickDlow , Oh WOW, thats exactly what I was imagining! This gives me some hope on the idea.. The rifling is an interesting way to create the vortex that I had not thought about.. I was imagining a chamber more like this...

This is the inside of a popcorn air popper. Imagine the heating elements, or heat exchanger being just on the other side of those vent holes. And perhaps a center post to make the chamber a ring instead of a circle, so that there is no central dead spot with no air movement.

Click to expand...

Put your heater in the center so no heat can be wasted to the outside without contributing to heating the air passing through your exchanger.

In order to bypass the need to exchange heat which has been trapped inside a silvered or metal coated bulb, or other heating element and the subsequent need to transfer that heat from the bulb/heater surface to the air or load, how about allowing all the bulb's energy to exit the bulb as normal, then capture the energy IN the airstream? (in an assembly deliberately designed to lose heat to air as fast as possible).

This approach has these benefits:
Efficiency of heat transfer (less energy is wasted heating up the bulb/heater itself).

The heat capture element could be very loosely related to the popcorn popper and shaped to induce a vortex in airflow/load.

Manufacture of heat exchanger could be very simple and achieved with healthy materials.

No special bulb required.

It could look spectacularly Sci-Fi!

Brief overview:
Light from the bulb would be used to heat a thin Ti or SS foil that's in the airpath.
Air could be heated by this as it passes over/around the foil.

/brief overview

A bit more detail:
If the assembly took the form of cylinders which fit over the bulb (glass tube/Ti tube/glass tube) the Ti/SS foil tube could be cut and folded to occupy the space between the glass tubes (where our airflow/heat exchange occurs) with a series of longitudinal/angled 'louvres' (see popcorn maker) and does triple duty:
1. It heats up from proximity to bulb/light energy, and exchanges heat to the air passing over it's surface.
2. the louvres can be used to direct air in a channel up and down the length of the cylindrical assembly (in the space between the two glass tubes) massively increasing the heated airpath. (and provide vortex action upon exit from the heat exchanger assembly).
3. Aesthetic.
The foil cylinder and louvres could be made to allow a small portion of the light from the bulb to escape the exchanger assembly and illuminate the vortex of vapour surrounding it.
Or the foil could be perforated with an attractive pattern of tiny holes making a 'starscape' of pinpricks illuminated from within, and shining out through the vapour vortex.

The effect is ambitious, I admit, but the manufacture (of the heat exchanger) could be pretty damn simple, requiring only:

A bulb and off the shelf ceramic holder

Two glass tubes

One metal foil tube

End caps for the assembly could be metal or ceramic etc

I'm uncertain that I'm articulating this very well.
Is it worth me drawing a sketch? ( I've yet to learn how to post my own pic's ) or am I barking up the wrong tree?

I have another approach for heat exchange, but that also involves a halogen bulb, and I don't want you to think that I'm ignoring other heater types, I just find vaping with light very attractive, so my own ideas come from there, currently.

Sorry about the wall of text!

@Copacetic , I think we are def. on the same page, and I like your idea of putting the heat exchanger on the inside of the chamber to maximize thermal retention. In your design I imagine the 'louvres' coming out of a center post in the middle of the chamber? This is opposed to the popcorn popper design where the louvres are positioned along the outside walls of the chamber, like in the photograph above.

I think this could be a great idea... because the chamber could be glass, considering it dosnt need those cut-out louvres anymore, which would allow you to see the spinning chamber from the side..very cool, and all heat energy is contained in the middle of the design, like you mentioned...hmm.

The idea of the airway going up through a central air tube..passing directly over the halogen bulb, and then traveling back down an outer tube with spiraling heat sink fins... lots of time to gather heat energy!

If Im wrong, I suppose a sketch would help. But I thiiink I gotcha..

I think you do

I also think that you're right re' passing the air directly over the bulb before passing it between the two glass tubes containing the louvred metal tube.
I imagine that designs like the Ville's Apollo depend (successfully) upon the hot glass of the bulb contributing greatly to heating the air.
What you're suggesting would double down on exploiting both the direct heating of the air, and the harnessing of the light energy.

I'm picturing tiny static beams of light shining out through moving vapor

Copacetic said:

how about allowing all the bulb's energy to exit the bulb as normal, then capture the energy IN the airstream? (in an assembly deliberately designed to lose heat to air as fast as possible).

Click to expand...

This is essentially how the Herbalizer heats, so there may be a patent issue.

@Stu , hmm. Something to look into.

Still.. I am attracted to the higher temps possible with a flame. I don't think a halogen bulb could provide enough heat for a vortex style chamber... not in a portable unit, anyhow.

I've been making some paper models to see which chamber design might work best. @Copacetic , I tried making a chamber with a central tube with radial louvres, facing outwards. And it just didn't work. No vortex was created. The same tube size and louvres were then tried as an outer shell tube, with the chamber inside. So, identical to the popcorn popper design photo posted above. This worked much better. But there were some minor dead spots, and the material tended to swirl around on the bottom instead of becoming airborne.

So I made a third chamber, the same exact size, but put the louvres on the bottom of the chamber, so the air would push the loaded material up and into the vortex. This seemed to work much better and will be the starting point for future models. Directly below the chamber could be a spiral heat exchanger.

Here is a short video of this chamber design in action. I used some dry Orange Pekoe tea for an example. The air outlet, exiting the chamber and going to my mouth, is the central tube. As you can see, there is no screen, yet almost no material is able to find its way into this exit tube. The chamber is acting like a dust separator vacuum, kinda neat.


You can imagine the outer tube being made of glass, which would give a much better view.

I was thinking since a while about a vape with 2 heaters, one convection and one conduction and the user will be able to adjust between 100% convection - 100% conduction using a rotate button (i.e you can set it at 80% convection-20%conduction).

Maybe the unit could be similar in design to a beatbox/musicmachine, you can add a airflow electronic control and the t° button and a fan button if you want to blow bags.

Sorry, I think my post is irrelevant cause you are working on a portable unit using an external power source not an electrical powered pluggin vape (I think my 2 heaters idea need a lot of power).

I will keep an eye on this thread (like I done with the Okin!).

Sounds ambitious, @PPN

I was wondering if this could be done with a single heater. Say.. in the chamber design I posted above, in the video. If the bottom and side walls of the chamber were heated by the heat exchanger below, like a hot plate... giving you conduction, and then when the air is drawn through the chamber, you have your convection. If the heat exchanger was heated with an adjustable compressed gas fuel burner with adjustment valve (like a camping stove) you could set it to "simmer" to give more conduction heating, and then turn it to full blast as you're inhaling to rapidly ramp up to convection temperatures within the heat exchanger.

The added bonus could be that if you wanted to use only conduction, the vortex chamber would automatically stir your load, giving a more even roast.

Could work? I dunno, hahah.

EDIT:
Balls, I screwed up, this post starts with a quote from Dan:

I am attracted to the higher temps possible with a flame. I don't think a halogen bulb could provide enough heat for a vortex style chamber... not in a portable unit, anyhow.

I've been making some paper models to see which chamber design might work best......
....... there is no screen, yet almost no material is able to find its way into this exit tube. The chamber is acting like a dust separator vacuum, kinda neat.


You can imagine the outer tube being made of glass, which would give a much better view.[/QUOTE]


My response:

Ah, what I had in mind is slightly different, and not intended as a herb chamber design, just as a heat exchanger which maximises heat transfer from light to air, then delivers it to a herb chamber (which could then use a bottom fed vortex action like you made for your test (nice work BTW! I really like your 'cyclonic' herb chamber idea)

(Air exiting the herb chamber could then also be encouraged to swirl round the main can whilst the light shines through it, but that's a separate mechanism)


The louvres I've described (badly ) are intended to create a labyrinth which 'zig-zag's' the air up and down the length of the heat exchanger chamber gathering heat as it passes over:

1. The hot glass (probably low efficiency as most light energy will pass through the glass), but that's what we want, because-

2. The metal foil 'labyrinth' (most efficiency here as light would be blocked by the foil, converted to heat, and the foil is right in the air flow)
(pre herb chamber).


Alternatively, the metal foil tube could be constructed to spiral round inside the heat exchanger, which would offer the same surface area, but folding the foil in this manner would be much harder to manage than a longitudinal zig-zag, which could be achieved by straight line cuts and folds along the length of the metal tube.

To be clear; the foil tube restricts the air path to a zig-zag which travels up and down the length of the tube, gradually working it's way round the circumference of the exchanger, before eventually exiting into a herb chamber (which could be under, above or next to the exchanger).


I've suggested a thin foil for this instead of a thicker metal in order to keeep thermal mass as low as possible to encourage near instant heat transfer from button press>light>foil>air


I'll try to learn how to get drawings posted this weekend, as my lengthy descriptions are a crap way of communicating ideas (In my case anyway!)

Stu said:

This is essentially how the Herbalizer heats, so there may be a patent issue.

Click to expand...

Thank for the heads up Stu.
Can you offer any more detail re' how the Herbalizer exchanger works? (to avoid copying it, not to crib from it!)

Saw this magazine today and knew instantly that it had to be posted here.