The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

It seems like if you let your fears determine your outlook you are a conservative.
It seems like if you let hope determine your outlook you are a liberal.
If you like Bernie but you let fear force you to another choice than the conservatives have made you join them. Now you are a liberal voting other than your convictions. By muddying the water to confuse us with fear is one of the mainstays of the New Republicans. I liked it better when we ALL compromised and the opposition was considered competent and loyalty to the country was a given. It seems that motives are suspect now days. (Looking at you Koch Bros and G Soros.)

I'm with you @macbill but I want to vote for someone I really want for president not someone I think will win. We have our caucus coming up, I'm not sure what I will end up doing. At this point I'm feeling the Bern.

I voted for Obama during the the caucus over 7 years ago not knowing if Hillary would get the nomination. At the time my mom was still alive, she was 86 years old and she was for Hillary. We lived close to one another so we were in the same caucus area. We went to the caucus together that was the last presidential caucus she was able to go to. Good memories.

I'm no longer the optimist I once was. I salute your faith in Bernie. I am so frightened of a Rubio or Cruz's march towards Christo-facism should they get in. Put it this way: I don't want Bernie to "Nader-ize" the election.

If you listen to Rubio,

She wouldn’t just be a disaster. Hillary Clinton is disqualified from being Commander-in-Chief of the United States. Someone who cannot handle intelligence information appropriately cannot be Commander-in-Chief and someone who lies to the families of those four victims in Benghazi cannot be President of the United States.

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He manages to get two lies into that last sentence! This gets top billing on Rubio's web site. So bogus. Hillary is actually competent and well-versed (unlike Rubio, who is strictly memorized licks).

Here is a partial list of the policies that Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Sanders largely agree on: The country should have paid family leave; the minimum wage should be substantially increased; college students shouldn’t have to take on so much debt; parents need more affordable, quality child care and preschool options; Wall Street needs further reforms; health care should be universal; the wealthy should pay substantially more in taxes. Many of these are new policies even for Democratic presidential candidates. Despite using the socialist label, Mr. Sanders sounds a lot like many prominent Democrats. Mrs. Clinton is a tried and true liberal.
The true contrasts are between what they want and what’s being proposed among Republicans, who want to hand tax cuts to the wealthy, repeal the Affordable Care Act and block most of what Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Sanders support. Once the general election campaign begins, it will truly be a choice between clashing worldviews. Until then, Democratic primary voters are deciding between two theories of how to get things done.

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TeeJay1952 said:

It seems like if you let your fears determine your outlook you are a conservative.
It seems like if you let hope determine your outlook you are a liberal.
If you like Bernie but you let fear force you to another choice than the conservatives have made you join them. Now you are a liberal voting other than your convictions. By muddying the water to confuse us with fear is one of the mainstays of the New Republicans. I liked it better when we ALL compromised and the opposition was considered competent and loyalty to the country was a given. It seems that motives are suspect now days. (Looking at you Koch Bros and G Soros.)

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You are equating two very different kinds of fear. The fear the republicans generate is against your neighbor, against people, against gays and Muslims and Hispanics and Syrians and black people and inner city people and against the government itself. They want you to be uncomfortable in your daily life and to be afraid that someone wants to come and take away your stuff and give it to someone else. Fear of "the other", very similar to the fear they try and generate against the President.
Fear of choosing Bernie for President and having him lose is something totally different and unrelated. It is nothing personal against Bernie, it is a decision based on logic and math and likelihood and probability. It is NOT ideology. The ideological difference between Bernie and Hillary is negligible in any practical sense. Their positions are a hairs width apart. MANY Hillary supporters might like to vote for Bernie but we are willing to admit what his chances are, and we are just NOT willing to take that chance with the future of the country. We are willing to do ANYTHING to reduce our chances of having a Cruz or Trump or Rubio in the White House. The risk is THAT great, and reinforced any time Scalia or Thomas or Alito open their mouth to speak. And reinforced every time (62 so far) the republicans vote against Obamacare. And reinforced every time we hear a republican congressperson or senator say things like the earth is 6000 years old or Katrina or Sandy were visited on us by God due to out wicked ways, or climate change is "a lie out of the pits of hell". Every time they vote to defund Planned Parenthood and every time they threaten to kill the EPA or the IRS, etc, etc.

I am using fear here, because I am afraid of the consequences of a mistake of this magnitude. There IS a group of people I am afraid of, but it isn't Muslims or blacks or jews or mexicans. It is REPUBLICANS. And I am NOT afraid of them because of who they are. I am afraid of them because of what they have promised to do. I am afraid of them because of what they want to happen. And I will do anything I legitimately can to stop them AND their agenda.

You say you are not using fear, buy your whole argument is that if you don't vote for Hillary then the Republicans will win. Not only is that disingenuous (as Sanders has just the same, if not a better change against the Republicans depending who you ask) it's absolutely based on fear.

I don't fear Republicans or poor racists who hate me for being Muslim. I fear people in power who use them as pawns, and I see that on both sides of the isle.

EDIT: I misread, I read "I am using fear here" as "I'm not using fear here."

Farid said:

You say you are not using fear, buy your whole argument is that if you don't vote for Hillary then the Republicans will win. Not only is that disingenuous (as Sanders has just the same, if not a better change against the Republicans depending who you ask) it's absolutely based on fear.

I don't fear Republicans or poor racists who hate me for being Muslim. I fear people in power who use them as pawns, and I see that on both sides of the isle.

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You need to read that again, Farid. I said I AM expressing fear, not that I'm not. Just a different kind. Fear of an eventuality that will destroy the country. Not fear of individuals of color or fear of immigrants or fear of democratic ideals, but fear of a possible outcome that would be incredibly destructive to America, our way of life, and out position in the world.

And, BTW, YOU are using fear too. Look up a couple lines.

"I fear people in power"

And another BTW, you have absolutely NO WAY to know how Bernie will do under the withering attack from republicans for being a socialist. IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED, and to suggest it will be no big deal indicates how mistaken you are about the American electorate. Any experience he may have had running for senator in one of Americas most liberal states will not prepare him for what is waiting for him on the trail. So far his attackers are all Democrats. I suspect the republicans will NOT be gentle.

Farid said:

You say you are not using fear, buy your whole argument is that if you don't vote for Hillary then the Republicans will win. Not only is that disingenuous (as Sanders has just the same, if not a better change against the Republicans depending who you ask) it's absolutely based on fear.

I don't fear Republicans or poor racists who hate me for being Muslim. I fear people in power who use them as pawns, and I see that on both sides of the isle.

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Hunter was right it is very much about fear but don't forget loathing. Come to think about it General Gathers was right too.

Sorry I misread your post. No matter the attacks on Sanders for his socialist position, I think the Republicans have more ammunition against Hillary.

The Republicans will make up all sorts of bullshit "ammunition" against whoever gets the Democratic nomination. Whether it's Bernie or Hillary makes no difference; they'll be attacked regardless.

I'll be voting for who I think should be the next President of the United States. Not who I think stands a better chance of winning against the Republicans.

Given the modern Republican platform, how can you not be concerned about beating them? Supreme Court nominations alone may have more lasting impact than most things our next president will do. I don't think this should necessarily supersede any other concerns, but when you compare the relative differences of the policies of Sanders and Clinton to the difference between the Democrats and Republicans there is a massive contrast. If you disagree then I respectfully suggest you look more closely.

I'm not advancing this as an argument to vote for Hillary, btw. As a relative radical compared to almost every politician (which is why I'm fond of Bernie's ideas in the first place because he's rather radical as well), I can always count on not being able to support everything any candidate or elected official stands for, but I've been able to clearly see that I stand against almost everything the Republicans stand for. They are an enemy of modern civilized society.

Then take them on!

I can't fault a person for voting their beliefs. I respect that.

macbill said:

I don't want Bernie to "Nader-ize" the election.

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To be clear, I don't think there's a chance in hell that bernie would run as an independent. Like warren, he knows he's extremely valuable in the senate, and he's already pushed hillary to the left. He wouldn't dare split the vote like nader; he's smarter than that, and his ego is non-existent in comparison. Sanders has already won in my book, now we'll see if he can take it to the next level. We should know by march 2.

edit: If the worst case was to come about, it might be in the form of an elitist like hillary or biden trying to upset the apple cart if bernie wins the nomination, in a last-ditch attempt to preserve the status quo.

Derrrpp said:

I'll be voting for who I think should be the next President of the United States. Not who I think stands a better chance of winning against the Republicans.

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Please help me to understand why you would vote for someone who you don't think can win the general? If that's the case, why vote at all?

lwien said:

Please help me to understand why you would vote for someone who you don't think can win the general? If that's the case, why vote at all?

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Now that's an age-old debate.
No pun intended !

www.opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/is-voting-speech/

lwien said:

Please help me to understand why you would vote for someone who you don't think can win the general? If that's the case, why vote at all?

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If I could be 100% sure that the person I would vote for would lose the general election I would probably not vote for that person. BUT there are no guarantees so I for one would vote for the candidate who best represents my ideals regardless of how the percentage chance of that candidate winning are looking at the time.

His_Highness said:

If I could be 100% sure that the person I would vote for would lose the general election I would probably not vote for that person. BUT there are no guarantees so I for one would vote for the candidate who best represents my ideals regardless of how the percentage chance of that candidate winning are looking at the time.

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Other than death and taxes, there's nothing 100%, but if you feel strongly about both the long term and short term damage that could be done if your competing party won the election, why wouldn't you want to play the odds and bet on who has the best chance on winning the general even if it's not your ideal candidate?

Case in point. There were those who voted for Santorum and Huckabee knowing full well that their chances of winning were minuscule yet they voted for them anyway. Why? It's an exercise in futility.

Derrrpp said:

I'll be voting for who I think should be the next President of the United States. Not who I think stands a better chance of winning against the Republicans.

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lwien said:

Please help me to understand why you would vote for someone who you don't think can win the general? If that's the case, why vote at all?

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I should have phrased my point more clearly. I honestly believe either Dem candidate could win the general election against the eventual Republican nominee (whoever that may be). What I meant was, even though Hillary is more of a "safe bet", I'll be voting for Bernie Sanders because I think we need to shake up the status quo. This country needs the change that he's proposing. And I just don't see anything happening under Hillary.

Derrrpp said:

I should have phrased my point more clearly. I honestly believe either Dem candidate could win the general election against the eventual Republican nominee (whoever that may be). What I meant was, even though Hillary is more of a "safe bet", I'll be voting for Bernie Sanders because I think we need to shake up the status quo. This country needs the change that he's proposing. And I just don't see anything happening under Hillary.

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Thanks for clarifying that. Personally, I like Bernie better as well but unlike you, I don't think that there is a chance in hell a self professed socialist can win the general. He does, however, have a chance in winning the primary but if that happens, the chances of the GOP taking the WH goes up tremendously and THAT, for me, takes precedence for even though I like Bernie better, I would much rather have Hillary in there than any of the GOP candidates.

The stakes are too high here to not play the odds, eh, especially when one considers the future makeup of the Supreme Court ?

lwien said:

Thanks for clarifying that. Personally, I like Bernie better as well but unlike you, I don't think that there is a chance in hell a self professed socialist can win the general. He does, however, have a chance in winning the primary but if that happens, the chances of the GOP taking the WH goes up tremendously and THAT, for me, takes precedence for even though I like Bernie better, I would much rather have Hillary in there than any of the GOP candidates.

The stakes are too high here not to play the odds, eh?

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Fair enough. Maybe I'm being too optimistic. If I thought there wasn't any chance of Bernie winning the general then maybe I would think twice about voting for him. But I still think he has a fighting chance against the Republican troglodytes, self-professed socialist or not. I agree that a White House run by the GOP would be a disaster.

Trump's mouth on a blow fish....works well on a number of levels

Now Trump is calling Cruz a cheater regarding the Iowa Caucus. There needs to be a do over he said. I guess he decided not to be a gracious loser. Cruz said The Donald is having a "trumper tantrum". The gloves are off.

Democrat candidates are having a Town Hall Meeting type debate tonight on CNN. At least they can act like grown ups.

Voters run this country not polls. I thought the idea was push to the extreme for Primary and then to the center for General.
I just dislike folks being scared instead of proud. I like my ideas and rarely am permitted to see them come to fruition. Doesn't mean I switch philosophy. My older brother used to threaten me if I didn't do something and then blame me for my beating when I wouldn't perform. Seems like politicians picked up that trick early. If I can't get you to vote for me I will scare you with Boogeyman other guy. Warps the process.

TeeJay1952 said:

Voters run this country not polls. I thought the idea was push to the extreme for Primary and then to the center for General.
I just dislike folks being scared instead of proud. I like my ideas and rarely am permitted to see them come to fruition. Doesn't mean I switch philosophy. My older brother used to threaten me if I didn't do something and then blame me for my beating when I wouldn't perform. Seems like politicians picked up that trick early. If I can't get you to vote for me I will scare you with Boogeyman other guy. Warps the process.

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Voting for McGovern or Dukakis has a way of curing one of this type of thinking.