The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

cybrguy said:

Yeah? Try national socialism

Click to expand...

Which is nothing like Democratic Socialism, but I'd hope you're not implying that.

So I recently read one opinion that what is going on in the Republican party is an attempt by the establishment to push public opinion to the right. By splitting the Republican party between the tea party/Trump supporters/far right nuts and the traditional centrist conservatives, the Democratic party will try and win over those centrist conservatives by moving the party to the right (as Hillary is farther right than Obama). Doing this will allow them to avoid any fast change which could threaten the establishment's power. The theory is that if change happens slowly it gives establishment time to react. The example given was slavery being made illegal. If slavery was made illegal over a long period, slave owners would have been able to sell their slaves or would have been able to save their business, despite deserving to go bankrupt for making the bad choice to use slaves for labor. That's a bad example, as many slave owners were able to do just that.

It should be noted that this theory is based around the idea of the establishment being extremely politically organized and not aligned with a party. This theory also has Hillary as being the establishment candidate.

Woody Guthrie Wrote Angry Songs About Donald Trump’s Dad

• Katie Reilly @katiemacreilly

Jan. 21, 2016


APFolk singer, Woody Guthrie, singing a song and playing his guitar.


'Old Man Trump knows just how much Racial Hate he stirred up'
For two years, folk icon Woody Guthrie was a tenant in one of the Brooklyn apartment buildings managed by Fred Trump, father of current Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump. The living arrangement apparently inspired bitter songwriting about what Guthrie called “racist” housing practices by the real estate mogul.

Donald Trump has linked his legacy with that of his father, whom Guthrie wrote about with disdain in song lyrics that were never published, according to Will Kaufman, a professor of American literature and culture. Kaufman found Guthrie’s old lease and writings in the Woody Guthrie Archive in Tulsa, Okla., and posted them on TheConversation.com.

In his notebooks, Guthrie wrote:

I suppose

Old Man Trump knows

Just how much

Racial Hate

he stirred up

In the bloodpot of human hearts

When he drawed

That color line

Here at his

Eighteen hundred family project
The Department of Justice sued the Trump real estate business in the 1970s for violating the Fair Housing Act, according to the New York Times. After Trump Management filed suit against the government, the two sides reached an agreement that “did not constitute an admission of guilt” by Trump or his company.

Guthrie, whose songs advocated for American equality and condemned racism, lamented the lack of diversity among the residents of Trump’s Beach Haven apartments, according to Kaufman.


The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Trump's dad didn't run for president though.
CK

CarolKing said:

Woody Guthrie Wrote Angry Songs About Donald Trump’s Dad

• Katie Reilly @katiemacreilly

Jan. 21, 2016

APFolk singer, Woody Guthrie, singing a song and playing his guitar.


'Old Man Trump knows just how much Racial Hate he stirred up'
For two years, folk icon Woody Guthrie was a tenant in one of the Brooklyn apartment buildings managed by Fred Trump, father of current Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump. The living arrangement apparently inspired bitter songwriting about what Guthrie called “racist” housing practices by the real estate mogul.

Donald Trump has linked his legacy with that of his father, whom Guthrie wrote about with disdain in song lyrics that were never published, according to Will Kaufman, a professor of American literature and culture. Kaufman found Guthrie’s old lease and writings in the Woody Guthrie Archive in Tulsa, Okla., and posted them on TheConversation.com.

In his notebooks, Guthrie wrote:

I suppose

Old Man Trump knows

Just how much

Racial Hate

he stirred up

In the bloodpot of human hearts

When he drawed

That color line

Here at his

Eighteen hundred family project
The Department of Justice sued the Trump real estate business in the 1970s for violating the Fair Housing Act, according to the New York Times. After Trump Management filed suit against the government, the two sides reached an agreement that “did not constitute an admission of guilt” by Trump or his company.

Guthrie, whose songs advocated for American equality and condemned racism, lamented the lack of diversity among the residents of Trump’s Beach Haven apartments, according to Kaufman.


The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Trump's dad didn't run for president though.
CK

Click to expand...

Power begets power, look at the Bushes, Kennedys and Forbes as examples. Old established dynasty powers that differ in claimed political positioning but have managed to establish, maintain and extend their control over their fellow citizens generation after generation. The problem is that as you have pointed out is that the sins of the father often shape and follow the the sons and daughters through history. Sadly some folks are so oriented to the left and right presentation that they often don't see the class stratification that is as big a part of the political system. So the actual power just keeps rolling around in the same hands generation after generation.

Farid said:

But the polling shows Sanders has a better chance against Trump than Clinton does.

Click to expand...

The republican polling showed Mitt Romney the walk away winner of the 2012 election. Because of the polling they were certain to win. Oops...

Farid said:

Which is nothing like Democratic Socialism, but I'd hope you're not implying that.

Click to expand...

Of course I'm not, but you are missing the point that it doesn't matter. The Average American does NOT know the difference.

The polling has NO WAY to judge how Bernie will do against the withering criticism he will get for being a socialist. There hasn't been any yet, and my money is on no republicans bringing it up until or unless they need it and if Hillary uses it at all it will be sparingly. Probably 80% of the electorate has no concept of what socialism even is, let alone democratic socialism. Do you really think you or he can teach the electorate why they shouldn't equate it with Communism or Nazism. Look up National Socialism on the web. Hows it look? Looks like a real winner, doesn't it.

I may understand the difference. You may understand the difference. But if you think the average voter will, you haven't been paying much attention to how little the average American understands their system of government and their alternatives. Maybe over the corse of years, but ceratinly not over the course of months. Bernie is unelectable nationally, choosing him as the nominee will assure a republican win, no matter which candidate sinks to the bottom of their pack (oops, I meant rises to the top).

Bernie may do well in lilly white New Hampshire and Iowa, but as soon as he needs minorites to suceed the party is over.

----------------------
"If anyone is having trouble understanding why Bernie Sanders is failing to connect with African American voters, they should read Jonathan Capehart. A lot of it has to do with choosing people like Cornel West (who has viciously attacked President Obama by saying things like, he “has a certain fear of free black men”) to do outreach with African Americans.

The subtext of all this is that, if asked to chose between supporting someone who aligns themselves with President Obama and someone who aligns themselves with Cornel West, that is an easy call for a lot of African Americans."

Bernie Sanders Rockets to First Place in Iowa

A new poll by CNN shows Bernie Sanders leading Hillary Clinton by 8 points in Iowa.

It’s great news for progressives – Bernie Sanders has pulled ahead of Hillary Clinton in Iowa, less than two weeks before the Iowa caucus.

According to a new poll released by CNN on Thursday, 51% of polled voters would vote for Bernie Sanders, with only 43% in support of Hillary Clinton.

The poll was conducted via telephone with a sample size of 2,002 Iowa voters. It has a sampling error of plus or minus 6 percentage points.

This is a huge shift for Sanders, who was lagging behind Clinton in a similar poll in December 54% to 36%.

Sanders success may be attributed to his recent announcements of his healthcare plan “Medicare for All” and his plans for breaking up Wall Street and the “too big to fail” banks. In fact, Clinton has been pushed aside as the best on health care by Sanders 51% to 45%. Voters also voted for Sanders to be the most trusted to handle the economy 58% to 36%. Perhaps the largest gap was the amount of voters that trust Sanders’ policies to help the middle class, versus Hillary’s policies with 67% to 30%.

A big change in CNN’s Iowa polls: Clinton was judged to be best on health care 63-31, now it’s Sanders 51-45. pic.twitter.com/im9wwTSzNX
— Taniel (@Taniel) January 21, 2016

Sanders continues to stay ahead of Clinton in New Hampshire, with 60% to Clinton’s 33%.


http://www.nationofchange.org/news/2016/01/23/bernie-sanders-rockets-to-first-place-in-iowa/

It wouldn't surprise me to see Bernie win BOTH Iowa and NH, but I caution you that they are polling voters in Iowa, not caucus goers...

cybrguy said:

...The polling has NO WAY to judge how Bernie will do against the withering criticism he will get for being a socialist. There hasn't been any yet, and my money is on no republicans bringing it up until or unless they need it and if Hillary uses it at all it will be sparingly..."

Click to expand...

What about what the Republicans will do to Hillary should she get the nom?
You're correct they will beat Sanders with the "Socialism" club till they're blue in the face, but they HATE Hillary. They hate her like they hate Obama, perhaps more, because of Bill's positive legacy. They will hammer her day and night and they have more ammunition to use against her, that's in the public awareness, than they do on Sanders.
As things get worse, people want more radical change. I believe that's a big part of what gave the election to Obama eight years ago. Two terms of W and the Iraq war and people wanted radical change. It looked like Hillary until, in the words of Amy Poehler as Hillary, "...someone named Barack Obama stumbled out of a soup kitchen with a basketball and a cigarette and stole my life."
That same atmosphere exists today, stronger perhaps, and that bodes well for a candidate like Sanders.
Unfortunately it works both ways and opens the door for a guy like Trump.

I thought the first people I'd see trying to slander Sanders' socialist leanings would be Republicans trying to say he's a Red. I didn't think it would be Hillary supporters trying to imply there is any connection between Democratic Socialism and Nazism. The reality is that Nazism is as close to Democratic Socialism as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is Democratic. I think even bringing this up is an attempt to smear Sanders, especially considering most Americans don't even know that Nazi stands for National Socialist, so I wouldn't be worried about them making any connection between Nazis and Bernie Sanders... especially considering Sanders is Jewish and has a history working with civil rights groups.

Adobewan said:

What about what the Republicans will do to Hillary should she get the nom?
You're correct they will beat Sanders with the "Socialism" club till they're blue in the face, but they HATE Hillary. They hate her like they hate Obama, perhaps more, because of Bill's positive legacy.

Click to expand...

You'll notice that didn't keep Obama from being elected, or reelected with a large margin.

They have ALWAYS hated Hillary. That is baked into the cake. But THEIR hate for Hillary will NOT overwhelm the support she has, especially in the minority communities (not just black). And you can't discount how the minority community feels about Trump, especially the Hispanic community. And you can't discount how much support Hillary gets from women.

Farid said:

I thought the first people I'd see trying to slander Sanders' socialist leanings would be Republicans trying to say he's a Red. I didn't think it would be Hillary supporters trying to imply there is any connection between Democratic Socialism and Nazism. The reality is that Nazism is as close to Democratic Socialism as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is Democratic. I think even bringing this up is an attempt to smear Sanders, especially considering most Americans don't even know that Nazi stands for National Socialist, so I wouldn't be worried about them making any connection between Nazis and Bernie Sanders... especially considering Sanders is Jewish and has a history working with civil rights groups.

Click to expand...

The elephant in the room is fascism, which is socialism administered by heartless corporations that aren't held responsible for their actions. As opposed to socialism administered by corrupt governments, which is infinitely better if democracy is part of the deal, because corruption can be reformed by an informed electorate. That's a big if, and if TPP/TCIP and their ilk pass in their current form we'll be screwed on these standpoints (both democracy and information). Globalists like obama & clinton see democracy as an impediment to their goals, because it puts human rights and the environment (goals of democracy) above corporate profits and hegemony. They want to pass these trade agreements no matter what the cost.

cybrguy said:

Bernie may do well in lilly white New Hampshire and Iowa, but as soon as he needs minorites to suceed the party is over.

Click to expand...

Hillary supporters have been saying Sanders is unelectable from the beginning. It's actually one of the reasons I didn't support Sanders until recently, I just didn't think the American public would be so receptive to him. Now that I am seeing how popular he is, I'm happy to have a candidate that does't make my stomach turn.

I have faith that minorities will see that Sanders' policys are better for them than Clintons'. Legalizing cannabis is a positive thing for minorities who are often punished more harshly for drug crimes. Only Sanders supports that. Same with Prison reform, something Sanders has been passionate about.

Bloomberg threatening to jump in is a ridiculous ploy by the DNC to scare primary voters into voting for Clinton. Just when I think politics can't get any more disgusting, it does. This move out Roves Karl Rove himself.

I happen to really like Cornel West and I have heard him say some negative things about Obama. He is entitled to his opinion. We don't have to agree with everything he says. I think it's awesome that he has chosen to support Bernie Sanders.

Sanders has spent his political life fighting for minorities and the middle class. So has Hillary Clinton but she carries so much baggage. All we'll hear is about Benghazi and Bill's infidelities for the length of her presidency if she gets into office. I will vote for her but I will be "holding my nose" as Bill Maher says. I sure miss his show on Friday nights.

CarolKing said:

...Bill Maher says. I sure miss his show on Friday nights.

Click to expand...

He's back on. Last week was first show of new season. Cornell West was on the panel.

Magic9 said:

Bloomberg threatening to jump in is a ridiculous ploy by the DNC to scare primary voters into voting for Clinton. Just when I think politics can't get any more disgusting, it does. This move out Roves Karl Rove himself.

Click to expand...

Why would you think Bloomberg would do that kind of favor for the DNC? I think you're wrong. Bloomberg is a megalomaniac just like Trump and he smells an opportunity. If both the republican and democratic party advance their far flanks there is plenty of room in the middle for him. It's a calculation, and frankly a pretty good one. If he wants to be President he would be crazy NOT to do it. Not for the DNC, who he has never cared about, but for himself. To serve his own self interests.

Trump told his supporters: I could shoot somebody and not loose any votes.

Republicans following a presidential candidate blindly.

I'm still hoping Trump says or does something so horrible that he loses his following. He may start feeling a little too secure in his position.

CarolKing said:

Trump told his supporters: I could shoot somebody and not loose any votes.

Click to expand...

He would definitely lose that vote!

CarolKing said:

Trump told his supporters: I could shoot somebody and not loose any votes.

Republicans following a presidential candidate blindly.

Click to expand...

Trump is pushing a presentation that he has been using decades and it has worked for him. Is the image he presents really him, probably not but I doubt we ever see the real person behind the political mask regardless of party. But your right following an image is the blind following a question mark and that can be scary.

Sadly it's the difference between political support and a cult following. It's apparently not about what he has done or will do. It's just about him...

This should be scaring the republicans just as much as it scares anyone else.

cybrguy said:

Why would you think Bloomberg would do that kind of favor for the DNC? I think you're wrong. Bloomberg is a megalomaniac just like Trump and he smells an opportunity. If both the republican and democratic party advance their far flanks there is plenty of room in the middle for him. It's a calculation, and frankly a pretty good one. If he wants to be President he would be crazy NOT to do it. Not for the DNC, who he has never cared about, but for himself. To serve his own self interests.

Click to expand...

I don't think he's doing a favor for the DNC. I think he's doing it as a favor to Clinton, the rest of his friends, and also for his own economic interests. With the blessing of the DNC.

He may be a megalomaniac like Trump, but this isn't about opportunity to win an election. The "leaked" report to the NYT about him dropping $1 billion of his own money to jump in as an independent (if Clinton doesn't receive the nomination) comes a little more than a week before Iowa. That's not a coincidence.

A third party candidate will not be able to buy the election. He'll be able to siphon votes. That's it. Like all third party candidates. This is a veiled threat to siphon votes from Sanders if he gets the nomination.

Dec. 8 2010: “I'm not going to run for president, period.”

Dec. 20 2011: “I think an independent candidate couldn’t win.”

Sept. 7 2013: “I am 100 percent convinced that you cannot in this country win an election unless you are the nominee of one of the two major parties. The second thing I am convinced of is that I could not get through the primary process with either party.”

Apr. 16 2014: “No is the answer. Plain and simple. I’m going to spend the rest of my life trying to make a better world for myself, for my kids, for my grandchildren.”


He wants Wall Street friendly candidates and he's threatening to use his money to get them.

cybrguy said:

Sadly it's the difference between political support and a cult following. It's apparently not about what he has done or will do. It's just about him...

This should be scaring the republicans just as much as it scares anyone else.

Click to expand...

I see a difference between a cult and a political operation historically they have worked very differently in my assessment. As to fear, well everybody gets to make a choice on how they live with it.

Even though bloomberg would run as an independent, he's part of the same political/financial establishment that hillary and obama are. As the only real independent that's actually in the race, I don't think this scares sanders at all. I believe bloomberg would siphon more votes from clinton and even trump if he runs.

If Sanders were to win the Dem nod, and Bloomberg DID enter the race, Sanders would not be automatically getting my vote. I would have to convinced that he could win, and I am not so convinced at this time...

cybrguy said:

If Sanders were to win the Dem nod, and Bloomberg DID enter the race, Sanders would not be automatically getting my vote. I would have to convinced that he could win, and I am not so convinced at this time...

Click to expand...

Exactly what they were hoping to do with the "leaked" announcement.

I've seen the phrase/sentiment that 'I wouldn't vote for so and so unless they could win' a few times. I myself have lamented having to vote for someone who could win versus the person I would most want to win.

I get that when the smoke clears and the primary is over that someone might vote along party lines and might vote for the candidate they didn't prefer during the primary.

Everyone has the right to vote the way they see fit whether it's a primary or the general election but I can't help but wonder ...... are we being true to ourselves if we vote for who can win instead of who you want to win?....at least during the primary?

Edit...easy for me to ask since I'm independent