Discontinued Zion vaporizer

Two units are in Pam's possession. One is a beta unit with a new heater set to the highest upper temperature limit. The second is a new unit set to the lowest upper temperature limit. The comparison of these units will provide the data to set the final upper temperature limits as well as confirm the change do to manufacturing variation is acceptable. The remaing Z-Team and initial customer units are in process and will begin shipping next week once the upper temperature is finalized.

The low temperature target is just below visible vapor. The upper target is combustion on second draw. please voice your opinion on targets for upper and lower temperature limits as the door is closing on the Zion design in the next 72 hours.

I think having a higher ceiling is always better.

The only reason to have a low upper target is for the dummies.

You never know how someone will use it and having the option is nice. Maybe some people want to do oil or wet herb? Who knows?

Congrats on the progress.

Definetly the higher the temp the better. Would be cool if the dial had the normal range of temp control motion with a small click past high that throws it into high temp boost mode.

To me range of useable temps (even close to combustion) is preferred over limiting the device or its potential

This latest update has me feeling slightly giddy this morning. Seems like i may be waking up from dreams of ownership sooner than later

Ahhhh yessss so good to be back! Will be out if town til Sunday so updates will be limited until then (as will be testing unfortunately, only one coming with probably, both beggin though!)

The beta is the return of Ziggy Sawdust, now running hotter than @DieHard's Loki even, and you guys are right hot is great bc you just tame it. Even better the preheat can be much shorter after the first hit from cold, near instant 3-5sec.

However, his range is limited, 60% pushes the heat, and at 5% its already plenty hot. The new production unit meanwhile, is set so low, lower than original Ziggy (which was close to @VegNVape's Johnny), now probably more like @TheDudeNextDoor's or even lower perhaps... Anyway it's 50% isn't even as hot as Zig's 5% and the preheat needed is longer 7-10sec, but heavy heat soaking can lower it as well.

Seems like the money spot may be in between these two extremes, but as you all said, closer to the high end. Less preheat and faster extraction, tame with knob and trigger use. The usefullness of the full dial on both units is what I intend to test more (and screen placement!), but after only one long night it seems Zig has slightly better vapor quality being turned hotter actually. Oh but the fit and finish on the production unit is just out of this world, sonwell thought and so fucking smooth!
I will try to post some shitty cellphone photos soon so you can all get a glimpse of the now superpowered Ziggy Sawdust and his new timid little sister Zenon the Zequel (aka Zig&Zen)

RastaBuddhaTao said:

The low temperature target is just below visible vapor. The upper target is combustion on second draw. please voice your opinion on targets for upper and lower temperature limits as the door is closing on the Zion design in the next 72 hours.

Click to expand...

At what draw rate?
That's the problem IMO is everyone has a different draw.
A higher ceiling, to help with this, is my preference.

Mulehead said:

At what draw rate?
That's the problem IMO is everyone has a different draw.
A higher ceiling, to help with this, is my preference.

Click to expand...

Indeed, Zig can take a heavier draw while Zen prefers a slow sip, Zig can sip too though maybe, and Zen could rip... As I said, much more testing to be done ofcourse!

Shit Snacks said:

Indeed, Zig can take a heavier draw while Zen prefers a slow sip, Zig can sip too though maybe, and Zen could rip... As I said, much more testing to be done ofcourse!

Click to expand...

Share the testing...I KNOW it's a tough job, but I can be of assistance. I'm off work for a few days with lots of stash and little ambition

Would be cool to have a little titanium dish to drop into the oven, so when you crank the heat up it dabs beautifully

That's the beauty of it. It's designed to be used at all levels. If RBT is talking his level of draw rate then Lord help us all. It will surely please and probably make most tap out.

RastaBuddhaTao said:

The low temperature target is just below visible vapor. The upper target is combustion on second draw

Click to expand...

To me, this sounds like the perfect range. Combustion is achievable so there is no concern that someone is missing out on more power. As well, I know some people like to have zero visible vapour, so having that as an option is definitely good.

My draw rate usually depends on the vape I am using, I expect to do the same with the Zion, especially given that it is a manual transmission.

If combustion is likely at high ranges, I think a clear, bold lettered warning in the manual would be good for people who aren't experienced vaporists.

The ability to do a ripping fast draw coupled with the superior quality Heat are what make the Zion shine. The extra hot convection with the dial set at the max are what make the Zion work well for concentrates.

So draw rate doesn't determine actual real temperature in the Zion bowl?
I can make most of my convection vapes char the load on the same setting as I regularly vape at simply by slowing my draw to almost nothing.
This is my problem with setting limits, unless the heater compensates for draw rate, or we compensate our draw rate to match heater output.

My draw rate has always been dependent on the device too.
If RBT sets a limit as described above, it has to be based on a specific draw rate.
An older person with bad lungs will sip which increases bowl temp, at a given voltage.
A fit person pairing with a WT will drop bowl temp at said voltage.

@RastaBuddhaTao please don't let the recent posts of combustion babble, limit this device. I want the ability to set this device up for me, and not have the device determine my draw rate based on someone else's.

If I combust, I will take total responsibility!

Shit Snacks said:

However, his range is limited, 60% pushes the heat, and at 5% its already plenty hot. The new production unit meanwhile, is set so low, lower than original Ziggy (which was close to @VegNVape's Johnny), now probably more like @TheDudeNextDoor's or even lower perhaps... Anyway it's 50% isn't even as hot as Zig's 5% and the preheat needed is longer 7-10sec, but heavy heat soaking can lower it as well.

Seems like the money spot may be in between these two extremes, but as you all said, closer to the high end. Less preheat and faster extraction, tame with knob and trigger use. The usefullness of the full dial on both units is what I intend to test more (and screen placement!), but after only one long night it seems Zig has slightly better vapor quality being turned hotter actually. Oh but the fit and finish on the production unit is just out of this world, sonwell thought and so fucking smooth!

Click to expand...

So glad to hear you are back in Zion land, Shits. My beta is still rolling strong, but I stay exclusively on full heat and still have to pre-heat with every hit. From cold, I need more like a 20-second pre-heat to get visible vapor although after warmed up, 5-10 seconds is sufficient. So I agree -- happy medium would be ideal.

Wow, Loki only needs about 3-4 seconds before you draw at 85% on the dial.

Shit Snacks said:

Seems like the money spot may be in between these two extremes, but as you all said, closer to the high end.

Click to expand...

This would be my vote. Still plenty powerful and able to get to combustion but also allow for some flexibility.

RastaBuddhaTao said:

the door is closing on the Zion design in the next 72 hours.

Click to expand...

Is release (public) imminent, ive been trying to keep my VAS in check till I see what the Zion's all about! I remember you mentioned an early January release but that was a few weeks back...

Also I favor high temps, I usually dance a fine line.

Mulehead said:

So draw rate doesn't determine actual real temperature in the Zion bowl?
I can make most of my convection vapes char the load on the same setting as I regularly vape at simply by slowing my draw to almost nothing.
This is my problem with setting limits, unless the heater compensates for draw rate, or we compensate our draw rate to match heater output.

My draw rate has always been dependent on the device too.
If RBT sets a limit as described above, it has to be based on a specific draw rate.
An older person with bad lungs will sip which increases bowl temp, at a given voltage.
A fit person pairing with a WT will drop bowl temp at said voltage.

@RastaBuddhaTao please don't let the recent posts of combustion babble, limit this device. I want the ability to set this device up for me, and not have the device determine my draw rate based on someone else's.

If I combust, I will take total responsibility!

Click to expand...

Oh it does, as does pack grind and herb, just that low enough on the dial you really just can't combust even full pack find grind slow sipping for 10 seconds (need to build up my stamina again for the longer hits, but big clouds even with the small ones). Some of the hits are so nuts you're like in sure its charred, go to check and no, just an even golden brown...

@DieHard and @TheDudeNextDoor yeah I feel like I am now the reference point between you two, trying the low end and high. Important things is variation across the dial, but many may settle in at a preferred spot, or rather spots. But yes hotter is more useful overall, if only for preheat purposes, even if not quite as hot as Zig is now (he's having no trouble with a tiny load with the screens non basket style, so load is not close to the heater, but upper range if the dial goes too high so low end not taken advantage of enough perhaps... Again more testing! Both may have to come with me in case opportunity arises this weekend...)

I definitely prefer more power that I can regulate myself than less power regulated for me.

To quote Tim The Toolman Taylor... "more power"!

TheDudeNextDoor said:

I definitely prefer more power that I can regulate myself than less power regulated for me.

Click to expand...

I agree totally if it's too much then you just back it off.
@RastaBuddhaTao how would the upper and lower limits be effected by the drop in output from the batteries. If you set a lower upper temp. will this be even lower when the cells have been used a few times?

Yea most people, even the vapecritic never vape at high temps...I have always laughed at those that whined at harshness of high temps.(I know there are folks with conditions and restrictions)

I even hit the lily without water and like it alot, so much so, I have not tried it with water.

If we were talking about one setting or three, it would be different.

Free dials or ones that don't click (I'm not too technically termed) provide the freedom to adjust and experiment at the same time.

Unless I'm completly missing something, there is no ADVANTAGE to temp limiting...besides the people that want to turn it up full blast and never experience combustion on any level...ever. I wouldn't waste mass appeal to cater to that crowd...

...should they choose to buy they can discover freedom of choice with something as simple as a knob.

Fuck combustion...but let's be free to explore the borders.

Free the knob!

Can't help but echo everyone else's thoughts -- I should be the one taming the device

Low temp vaping is nice, but I'm not a fan of invisible vapor (granted, I don't have to ninja-vape, since I live in a nug-friendly household).

I'm definitely a fan of being able to vape a nug-shatter-nug sandwich, and would vastly prefer that to ghost-vaping, since I want to consume all the active cannabinoids I payed for.

Sounds like in between the limits of the two devices @Shit Snacks is testing would be good, maybe a bit more toward the hot end.

RastaBuddhaTao said:

Two units are in Pam's possession. One is a beta unit with a new heater set to the highest upper temperature limit. The second is a new unit set to the lowest upper temperature limit. The comparison of these units will provide the data to set the final upper temperature limits as well as confirm the change do to manufacturing variation is acceptable. The remaing Z-Team and initial customer units are in process and will begin shipping next week once the upper temperature is finalized.

The low temperature target is just below visible vapor. The upper target is combustion on second draw. please voice your opinion on targets for upper and lower temperature limits as the door is closing on the Zion design in the next 72 hours.

Click to expand...

Those seem like good targets to me. I agree with those who feel that it's good to have that high range available.

Shit Snacks said:

Oh but the fit and finish on the production unit is just out of this world, sonwell thought and so fucking smooth!

Click to expand...

Yes! I know some people think the Zion looks like a basement project but in the hand it feels exquisite. RBT has nailed it with the production bodies.

TheDudeNextDoor said:

Free the knob!

Click to expand...

Nobody wants to see you free your knob, Dude.

Not to derail, but (in the context of this discussion) am I right to assume that the unregulated models like the TOD and USB are 100% of the power that the heater is capable of, when the button is pressed, for as long as it's pressed?

Why change the tune when everyone has chosen a good one?

Some thoughts on why i like this tune.

I don't intend to combust but i like to have the option, especially since the aftermath is simply throwing a glass stem into some ISO, and if i remember correctly, the Zion comes with more than 1 stem so no need to even have to actually stop to clean.

The higher temp option also allows me to hit it hard and fast for quick extraction if i am in a rush. I also find fast shorter draws at higher temps less taxing than having to do long slow draws at a slightly lower temp.

It'll impress my smoking friends.
Now that i have a nano, my brother- for the first time ever- does not bring his bong over when he visits. I hope to continue this trend with the Zion, but if it is power limited, he will treat it like my other portable vapes (and avoid it) because he gets no clouds or has to draw slowly, or has to spend 10 mins on a bowl.